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WalkinDude

Do the direwolves foreshadow how each Stark dies?

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On 8/17/2017 at 0:16 PM, plastic throne said:

Sorry but I'm curious, just how did Jon betray the Night Watch?

I'd be interested to hear how he justifies that myself...

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On 8/16/2017 at 5:26 PM, WalkinDude said:

This isn't really related to episode 5, but it's not something I can discuss in the General forum because it involves show material.

But I've noticed a similarity to the way the direwolves have been killed and Stark children.

1.) Lady -Stabbed through the heart.  Robb, stabbed through the heart.

2.) Greywind - killed by arrows.  Rickon, killed by an arrow.

3.) Summer - stabbed to death.  Jon, stabbed to death.

4.) Shaggydog - killed by unknown means, but we'll tentatively use "betrayal".  Could Bran, Arya or Sansa be killed by betrayal or in a manner similar to how Shaggydog was killed?

 

With all the foreshadowing present in the series, I think the similarities here are worth a consideration.

I don't really see the connection here. Also, do we know for sure that Lady was stabbed throughout the heart? It's been a long time since I've read the books.

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7 hours ago, WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive said:

Obviously Bran. The dude looks 25 and he's supposed to be what, 13?

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be a lot older than 13. They've generally gone one year per season, even though the equivalent story in the books only takes about three years.* So, all the kids are at this point 5-6 years older than you'd expect from the equivalent point in TWoW, not just the 2 years older they started with.

* The show hasn't been 100% consistent about that, and has tried to avoid giving dates or ages, but the little information we do have seems to mostly follow that pattern. And of course I'm guessing about TWoW—for all we know, it could have a 5-year time skip, or run fast enough to cover enough years to catch up with the show, but I doubt it will.

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6 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I'd be interested to hear how he justifies that myself...

He subscribes to the Allister Thorne view of the Nights Watch.  

You know... the one that has been wrong for hundreds of years and thinks the wall was built to keep the wildlings out.  

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

He subscribes to the Allister Thorne view of the Nights Watch.  

You know... the one that has been wrong for hundreds of years and thinks the wall was built to keep the wildlings out.  

Ahhh, well, we know where that got Mister Thorne don't we... :)

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6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Ahhh, well, we know where that got Mister Thorne don't we... :)

Lots of hugs?  I hope it's lots of hugs. 

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8 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I just watched it again.

Actually I think he stabbed her. 

The motion of Ned's arm suggests it was a cutting/slicing action, not a stabbing one. I think he cut the direwolf's throat.

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2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

The motion of Ned's arm suggests it was a cutting/slicing action, not a stabbing one. I think he cut the direwolf's throat.

Whichever one it was, it certainly wasn't a beheading nor was he using Ice. Personally I thought he pierced her heart, but cutting the throat is also possible. I don't see that it matters though, either would be a quick and reasonably humane death compared to what Cersei would have had done, which was the whole point of Ned doing it himself (as well as to reinforce how Robert / the southerners don't believe in the whole "he who sentences..." thing that Ned believes).

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Well I stand corrected, the first season mirrored the book so much I thought it happened the same way, just another screw up by the infamous Dumb & Dumber......either way, Lady's death in no way reflects how Sansa will die, the whole scene is supposed to foreshadow Ned's death 

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On 8/16/2017 at 6:26 PM, WalkinDude said:

This isn't really related to episode 5, but it's not something I can discuss in the General forum because it involves show material.

But I've noticed a similarity to the way the direwolves have been killed and Stark children.

1.) Lady -Stabbed through the heart.  Robb, stabbed through the heart.

2.) Greywind - killed by arrows.  Rickon, killed by an arrow.

3.) Summer - stabbed to death.  Jon, stabbed to death.

4.) Shaggydog - killed by unknown means, but we'll tentatively use "betrayal".  Could Bran, Arya or Sansa be killed by betrayal or in a manner similar to how Shaggydog was killed?

 

With all the foreshadowing present in the series, I think the similarities here are worth a consideration.

There is a relationship between the deaths of those dogs and their Stark counterparts but it is more subtle.  It differs from one wolf to the next as it does from one Stark to another. 

  1. Lady - Her death is the severing of Sansa's relationship with her family of origin.  She chose to side with the Lannisters, lured by the chance to marry Joffrey and become his queen.  Sansa is selfish.  She lied, indicating moral rot.  Lady's removes any possibility for Sansa to live a second life as a wolf.  You can also see that Lady's death is the "death of a lady" meaning Sansa is not a lady.  She has the trappings on the outside but far from it on the inside.  Lady paid for Sansa's sins.
  2. Greywind - This one mirrors the death of Robb.  Greywind paid for Robb's betrayal.  It also has a deeper meaning.  Robb betrayed Greywind by putting him in a cage.  Robb brought all of this down on himself and his wolf because he betrayed Walder Frey.  Greywind died for Robb's betrayal.  Putting Greywind in a cage also meant Robb betrayed his wolf side.  The Starks and the direwolves are savages and you can correctly argue that the dragons are far more civilized by comparison.  Robb chose to set aside his savage side in order to mend the alliance that he broke.  It costs him and it costs his wolf.  Greywind paid for Robb's oath breaking.
  3. Summer - Just like Greywind, Summer paid for the sin of a Stark.  Bran was stubborn, arrogant, and behaved like a brat when he chose to ignore the 3-eyed raven's warning. 
  4. Shaggydog - In general, his death is payment for the Starks playing the game of thrones when they should have stayed north.  This death was pretty senseless. 

The direwolves paid for the sins of the Starks.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch, broke his oaths, and behaved unjustly in the books.  Ghost will end up paying for his sins.  Arya has gone insane and I do not see a happy ending for her.  Nymeria will probably pay for her sins too.  It is possible that Jon and Arya may do something honorable in the end, like die in the fight to save the realm.  Sort of like the judeo christian promise that believing christians get to live on, they may get second lives.  Jon and Arya live on second lives as direwolves.  The wolves give up their bodies to give that second life to Jon and Arya.  Sansa will just die.  Rickon and Robb are just dead. 

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2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

There is a relationship between the deaths of those dogs and their Stark counterparts but it is more subtle.  It differs from one wolf to the next as it does from one Stark to another. 

  1. Lady - Her death is the severing of Sansa's relationship with her family of origin.  She chose to side with the Lannisters, lured by the chance to marry Joffrey and become his queen.  Sansa is selfish.  She lied, indicating moral rot.  Lady's removes any possibility for Sansa to live a second life as a wolf.  You can also see that Lady's death is the "death of a lady" meaning Sansa is not a lady.  She has the trappings on the outside but far from it on the inside.  Lady paid for Sansa's sins.
  2. Greywind - This one mirrors the death of Robb.  Greywind paid for Robb's betrayal.  It also has a deeper meaning.  Robb betrayed Greywind by putting him in a cage.  Robb brought all of this down on himself and his wolf because he betrayed Walder Frey.  Greywind died for Robb's betrayal.  Putting Greywind in a cage also meant Robb betrayed his wolf side.  The Starks and the direwolves are savages and you can correctly argue that the dragons are far more civilized by comparison.  Robb chose to set aside his savage side in order to mend the alliance that he broke.  It costs him and it costs his wolf.  Greywind paid for Robb's oath breaking.
  3. Summer - Just like Greywind, Summer paid for the sin of a Stark.  Bran was stubborn, arrogant, and behaved like a brat when he chose to ignore the 3-eyed raven's warning. 
  4. Shaggydog - In general, his death is payment for the Starks playing the game of thrones when they should have stayed north.  This death was pretty senseless. 

The direwolves paid for the sins of the Starks.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch, broke his oaths, and behaved unjustly in the books.  Ghost will end up paying for his sins.  Arya has gone insane and I do not see a happy ending for her.  Nymeria will probably pay for her sins too.  It is possible that Jon and Arya may do something honorable in the end, like die in the fight to save the realm.  Sort of like the judeo christian promise that believing christians get to live on, they may get second lives.  Jon and Arya live on second lives as direwolves.  The wolves give up their bodies to give that second life to Jon and Arya.  Sansa will just die.  Rickon and Robb are just dead. 

Wow, you sound like a pretty optimistic guy. You must be a load of laughs at parties... 

Just joking, don't take offense. :D

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3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

There is a relationship between the deaths of those dogs and their Stark counterparts but it is more subtle.  It differs from one wolf to the next as it does from one Stark to another. 

  1. Lady - Her death is the severing of Sansa's relationship with her family of origin.  She chose to side with the Lannisters, lured by the chance to marry Joffrey and become his queen.  Sansa is selfish.  She lied, indicating moral rot.  Lady's removes any possibility for Sansa to live a second life as a wolf.  You can also see that Lady's death is the "death of a lady" meaning Sansa is not a lady.  She has the trappings on the outside but far from it on the inside.  Lady paid for Sansa's sins.
  2. Greywind - This one mirrors the death of Robb.  Greywind paid for Robb's betrayal.  It also has a deeper meaning.  Robb betrayed Greywind by putting him in a cage.  Robb brought all of this down on himself and his wolf because he betrayed Walder Frey.  Greywind died for Robb's betrayal.  Putting Greywind in a cage also meant Robb betrayed his wolf side.  The Starks and the direwolves are savages and you can correctly argue that the dragons are far more civilized by comparison.  Robb chose to set aside his savage side in order to mend the alliance that he broke.  It costs him and it costs his wolf.  Greywind paid for Robb's oath breaking.
  3. Summer - Just like Greywind, Summer paid for the sin of a Stark.  Bran was stubborn, arrogant, and behaved like a brat when he chose to ignore the 3-eyed raven's warning. 
  4. Shaggydog - In general, his death is payment for the Starks playing the game of thrones when they should have stayed north.  This death was pretty senseless. 

The direwolves paid for the sins of the Starks.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch, broke his oaths, and behaved unjustly in the books.  Ghost will end up paying for his sins.  Arya has gone insane and I do not see a happy ending for her.  Nymeria will probably pay for her sins too.  It is possible that Jon and Arya may do something honorable in the end, like die in the fight to save the realm.  Sort of like the judeo christian promise that believing christians get to live on, they may get second lives.  Jon and Arya live on second lives as direwolves.  The wolves give up their bodies to give that second life to Jon and Arya.  Sansa will just die.  Rickon and Robb are just dead. 

With Nymeria's rejection of Arya, it may be that we Stark "critics" will get our wish and Arya dies without getting a second life.  That goes for Jon also. 

I will have to say that I don't see any foreshadowing.  Those wolves just died because the Stark kids lied, disobeyed, broke oaths, etc.  It's no different from Hodor taking one for Bran.  Lady took one for Sansa.  Would people prefer Nymeria to have died instead of Lady?  It was Nymeria who attacked Joffrey.  It was Sansa who lied so perhaps it is fitting that it's her wolf that died.

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