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Vows under duress


The Sleeper

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Catelyn forces several vows from Jaime at swordpoint in the dungeons of Riverrun. Jaime wonders to himself what would the High Septon say about the validity of vows extracted under such circumstances.

Later, Jaime ends the siege at Raventree. And extracts several vows on from lord Blackwood who is under threat of starvation, of his castle being stormed and the death of his people. It is not outright stated, but the threats are there. He also takes his son hostage to ensure his continued compliance.

This is not a thread about Jaime. The situation in Raventree is nothing unusual. For a great part, the fealty of the vassals is won over with violence or the threat of it. It seems that oaths under duress rather from being invalid, are one of the foundations of the seven kingdoms' political structure.

Thoughts?

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Even if Jaime intended to live up to every vow he made to Catelyn and did nothing else until he did so it was unrealistic of Catelyn to think Jaime himself could free her daughters. They weren't his to free in the first place they were King Joffrey's hostages. Jaime serves Joffrey and Cersei and was in no position to demand the release of any Starks.

Plus Catelyn is forcing Jaime to take vows that go against ones he already took. 

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24 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Plus Catelyn is forcing Jaime to take vows that go against ones he already took. 

Jaime - not the sharpest knife in the Seven Kingdoms - had figured out conflicting vows some 20 years previously.

When he had been knighted Jaime had sworn to "be just", to "protect innocence" and "protect all women".

And a few months later he was sworn to Aerys, his duties including making sure that nobody interrupted the King while he was raping his sister-wife.

 

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3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Jaime - not the sharpest knife in the Seven Kingdoms - had figured out conflicting vows some 20 years previously.

When he had been knighted Jaime had sworn to "be just", to "protect innocence" and "protect all women".

And a few months later he was sworn to Aerys, his duties including making sure that nobody interrupted the King while he was raping his sister-wife.

 

 

True. Though I'm not sure Catelyn was aware of the conflict of Jaime and his vows. 

The whole point is Jaime himself was her best chance at getting her daughters back. Letting him go with some vow she had no way of knowing he would ever keep was against her own best interests. Once Jaime is safely back with his family the Lannisters have no reason to ever send Sansa back. Jaime would be expected by his family to follow his Kingsguard vows to do as his King's commands. I doubt Joff or Cersei would send Sansa back even if Jaime asked them. Why would they?

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52 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

True. Though I'm not sure Catelyn was aware of the conflict of Jaime and his vows. 

The whole point is Jaime himself was her best chance at getting her daughters back. Letting him go with some vow she had no way of knowing he would ever keep was against her own best interests. Once Jaime is safely back with his family the Lannisters have no reason to ever send Sansa back. Jaime would be expected by his family to follow his Kingsguard vows to do as his King's commands. I doubt Joff or Cersei would send Sansa back even if Jaime asked them. Why would they?

Actually, Catelyn was putting her faith in Tyrion, who she was under the impression had agreed to exchange Sansa and Arya for Jaime.  This was based on an inaccurate account by Cleos Frey of their meeting (probably mis-remembered by Cleos).

Interestingly enough, Jaime has decided to actually keep his vows, to the best of his ability.  He sent Brienne to search for and assist Sansa, and avoided taking up arms against the Tullys at Riverrun.  Of course, losing his hand probably had something to do with that as well.

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Actually, Catelyn was putting her faith in Tyrion, who she was under the impression had agreed to exchange Sansa and Arya for Jaime.  This was based on an inaccurate account by Cleos Frey of their meeting (probably mis-remembered by Cleos).

I'm not sure if it was wise for her to put faith in Tyrion after she kidnapped him and almost got him thrown through a moon door.

Still the whole idea in theory is based on Jaime getting to his family before Sansa is released. Which, IMO, was way to big a risk. 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Interestingly enough, Jaime has decided to actually keep his vows, to the best of his ability.  He sent Brienne to search for and assist Sansa, and avoided taking up arms against the Tullys at Riverrun.  Of course, losing his hand probably had something to do with that as well.

Well the Stark/Tully rebellion was already pretty much over by the time Jaime got to King's Landing. It would have been interesting to see how Jaime would have proceeded if the war was still going on and he still had his sword hand.

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10 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Jaime - not the sharpest knife in the Seven Kingdoms - had figured out conflicting vows some 20 years previously.

When he had been knighted Jaime had sworn to "be just", to "protect innocence" and "protect all women".

And a few months later he was sworn to Aerys, his duties including making sure that nobody interrupted the King while he was raping his sister-wife.

 

No wonder he became such a disillusioned cynic... Yeah, that's what happens when people follow all the rules all the time, keep every vow always no matter what, and obey every single order. 

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