Did Tywin give up on Jaime?

[Adam Yozza]

10 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

To be fair, Tyrion does do his utmost to screw up every opportunity he gets to show Tywin his ability. I am not even going to get into his childhood marriage and the tragic and horrific end that came to but even in King's Landing he did exactly what Tywin had told him not to do, to not take his prostitute surrogate-lover to court which ended up with Tyrion making threats against his own family to protect the prostitute. Any good will Tyrion might had gained with Tywin for his apt handling of the situation in King's Landing went mostly down the drain with that. Also Tyrion would had lost the city and his life if it was not for his father and the Tyrells arriving to kick Stannis' ass.

Although Tywin did award Tyrion with one of the most important positions in the realm and a wife of great prestige even after that, so who knows. Tywin probably does recognize than even after all of Tyrion's screw ups Tyrion is still a Lannister that Tywin can have use for. Well at least until the alleged regicide but that's something only Jaime could get away with.

Yeah, but I doubt many other people (none of whom were in King's Landing) could have held the city long enough for the Tyrell-Lannister army to arrive.

[Humble Maester]

5 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Yeah, but I doubt many other people (none of whom were in King's Landing) could have held the city long enough for the Tyrell-Lannister army to arrive.

Which Tywin does admit when Tyrion is whining about not getting enough pats on his back:

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"Your chain was a clever stroke, and crucial to our victory. Is that what you wanted to hear? I am told we have you to thank for our Dornish alliance as well. You may be pleased to learn that Myrcella has arrived safely at Sunspear. Ser Arys Oakheart writes that she has taken a great liking to Princess Arianne, and that Prince Trystane is enchanted with her. I mislike giving House Martell a hostage, but I suppose that could not be helped."

-ASoS, Tyrion I

Before this Tywin has, by the way, multiple times inquired about Tyrion's well being and told him he visited him multiple times when he was at his worst and unconscious after the battle.

Tyrion of course blows this whole conversation by ending it by demanding that he is given Casterly Rock, after which Tywin reminds him that Tyrion is definitely not a man worthy of it, not just because of what he is but also because what he did.

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"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

 Continued by the real beef...

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"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."

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"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

I am not saying Tywin would had been ready to give the Rock to Tyrion if he hadn't done exactly what Tywin warned him not to do but I am pretty sure he would had at least received a bit more credit for what he had done.

[The Sleeper]

49 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

To be fair, Tyrion does do his utmost to screw up every opportunity he gets to show Tywin his ability. I am not even going to get into his childhood marriage and the tragic and horrific end that came to but even in King's Landing he did exactly what Tywin had told him not to do, to not take his prostitute surrogate-lover to court which ended up with Tyrion making threats against his own family to protect the prostitute. Any good will Tyrion might had gained with Tywin for his apt handling of the situation in King's Landing went mostly down the drain with that. Also Tyrion would had lost the city and his life if it was not for his father and the Tyrells arriving to kick Stannis' ass.

Although Tywin did award Tyrion with one of the most important positions in the realm and a wife of great prestige even after that, so who knows. Tywin probably does recognize than even after all of Tyrion's screw ups Tyrion is still a Lannister that Tywin can have use for. Well at least until the alleged regicide but that's something only Jaime could get away with.

The other opportunity was about taking care of the drains in Casterly Rock about a decade ago. That is it. Apparently the drains were managed excelently. As for King's Landing, Tyrion did exactly what Tywin told him. He curbed Cersei. And he did following Tywin's paradigm, though admitedly not all the way. He didn't after all order Tommen to be gang-raped or whipped. Like Tywin himself would have done. It's not like hasn't done it to family members before.

And of course, what was Tyrion thinking taking Shae with him. Tywin obviously wanted her for himself.

[Humble Maester]

24 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

The other opportunity was about taking care of the drains in Casterly Rock about a decade ago. That is it. Apparently the drains were managed excelently. As for King's Landing, Tyrion did exactly what Tywin told him. He curbed Cersei. And he did following Tywin's paradigm, though admitedly not all the way. He didn't after all order Tommen to be gang-raped or whipped. Like Tywin himself would have done. It's not like hasn't done it to family members before.

And of course, what was Tyrion thinking taking Shae with him. Tywin obviously wanted her for himself.

I am fairly certain engaging someone who thinks Tywin would had ordered Tommen to be gang-raped in a conversation will never lead to the two of us reaching an accord on the topic of what Tywin was but, well, one reason being an unapologetic Tywin fanboy is fun is because there is so much unearned hate directed towards him (on top of all the well deserved hate Tywin gets).

It is true that before the WotFK Tywin largely left Tyrion on his own, though he did bankroll his rather luxurious lifestyle, whoring and all, with his personal servants as long as he was willing to stay in Westeros. After Tyrion proved himself useful by getting himself out of Lysa's clutches with some troops loyal to him, Tywin did apparently start seeing more worth in him. And I am fairly sure Tywin was satisfied with how Tyrion handled the situation in King's Landing if it was not for him threatening his own family to protect a whore he had brought with him against the explicit orders of Tywin. And as I mentioned before he did get amply rewarded for his good work in the city, even after his screw ups, even if he was himself bitter about not getting to stay as the Hand, which had been explicitly stated to be a temporary position, and not getting a loving wife on top of getting one of the most prestigious matches in the Seven Kingdoms while being a disfigured dwarf.

I am loath to comment on any of your more colorful (and, to be frank, idiotic and non-text based) claims but I am interested, which family member did Tywin have gang-raped or whipped? I might be having temporary lapse of memory but I thought that the prestige of those who shared his name was pretty much the most important think for him? He was willing to let Tyrion get away with murdering his nephew, the king, even after how much he didn't personally like Tyrion, just to avoid a Lannister losing his head publicly. Or if you are going to say Tysha, okey, I don't think anyone considered her to be a Lannister :|

[elder brother jonothor dar]

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Slightly irrelevant in this case. He has known Tyrion is smart all along. That is part of the problem for Tywin. On some level he knows that Tyrion understands him and that is what he can't abide. Tyrion and Tywin are twisted mirror images of eachother.

Probably but when has he applied it in a way his father approves.  Tyrion calls out his fathers best councillors in a war cabinet.  Tyrion sees the predicament they are in, Tywin needs somebody to control his grandson and daughter not an easy task

[The Bard of Banefort]

I find it a bit puzzling that Tywin didn't think to ship Tyrion off to the citadel when he was a kid (which he probably would have liked) and have Kevan be his heir.

[Humble Maester]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I find it a bit puzzling that Tywin didn't think to ship Tyrion off to the citadel when he was a kid (which he probably would have liked) and have Kevan be his heir.

I suppose there are at least two possibilities. Its possible that Tywin felt same as Randyll Tarly, that it would be unbecoming of his son to be servant for others, though I think the more likely option is that Tyrion simply preferred the lifestyle he had. It was not like in the case of Samwell that his father would had been forcing great expectations of a heir on him, so he was free to do much as he liked as long as he did not do anything so notorious that the word would get out. He was free to read, to drink, to whore with his father's money, as long as he was discrete about it. Pretty decent life for a dwarf in that society. Actually third option, maybe maesterdom simply isn't open for dwarves, or they would have difficulties performing the tasks?

[Dofs]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I find it a bit puzzling that Tywin didn't think to ship Tyrion off to the citadel when he was a kid (which he probably would have liked) and have Kevan be his heir.

If Tyrion is out of the picture then Cersei becomes his heir.

[Lord Varys]

We can safely say that Tywin did not expect to ever see Jaime alive again. He knew he would make no concessions to the Starks or Tullys. Perhaps he would have considered on honorable trade of prisoners while Ned was still alive - but as Tyrion pointed out during the council the execution made that impossible. In fact, it made it very likely that the Starks would answer in kind and behead Jaime, too. I think that's what Tywin expected at this point. But he certainly would not allow Jaime being a hostage influence his decisions. If he happened to drive Robb into a corner they might decide to put Jaime down just to spite Tywin, and he would have learned that lesson ages ago. 

Tywin isn't the man who allows people to blackmail or threaten him. You can't force him to back down by taking someone he loves prisoner, nor is going to ever care for the life of hostage he hands to you. Tywin doesn't allow his personal feelings or convention to dictate his actions. His whole career and public image is built on defying that, to show the world how far he goes to protect his interests. When Joanna's brother and two other Lannisters are taken hostage by Lady Tarbeck Tywin insist they sent back Lord Tarbeck cut in three pieces. He had no problems with Lady Tarbeck killing his Lannister kinsmen in return (which she most likely would have done had Tywin gotten his way there).

When the Reynes retreat to Castamere he has hundreds or thousands of people - many of them innocent servants, women, children - drowned. He could have handled the matter differently. But he didn't want to. He wanted to send a message. He wanted to show everyone that Tywin Lannister doesn't care what he has to do to get to you or to punish you. If he has to kill thousands to punish a few rebels so be it. Especially if they really angered him.

Perhaps he would have backed down if somebody would ever have taken Joanna hostage. But I'd not even count on that. Doing that would make him look weak and I doubt he would found any happiness in his marriage if her presence had reminded him of that afterwards.

But his father, his siblings, or his children were never as important to him as his wife. So we can safely say he would never have allowed anyone to blackmail him by threatening Jaime's life. He himself also makes no empty threat. When he has a hostage he tells their family what they have to do and if they don't do it at once he'll kill that hostage. That's how to make a proper threat and convince people you mean business.

His sons both learned that lesson well. Jaime shows that during the Riverrun siege and Tyrion kills Tywin because of that lesson. He made a threat and an announcement to his father, Tywin ignored it, and paid the price for that.

Balon seems to operate under similar guidelines. For him Theon was dead from the day the Starks took him. He never cared about his return and he would never allowed the threat to his life prevent him from pursuing his life's dream of independent Iron Islands. We see this in ACoK. Balon doesn't need Theon to return to the islands. It is not that bad that he has him back but he would have attacked the North anyway, not caring that Robb then would have been forced to execute Theon to save face. In fact, he may have preferred that outcome to ensure Asha's eventual succession to the Seastone Chair.

[Castellan]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We can safely say that Tywin did not expect to ever see Jaime alive again.

I think he feared he wouldn't see him but directed his energies to that end. Catelyn helped him out, but his strategy of making a deal with Bolton and the Freys to doublecross Robb so he is defeated by stealth, at a distance from Riverrun where Jaime was prisoner, might have still saved Jaime's life. If Jaime has not escaped, Robb and Catelyn could have been seized and some kinds of terms made to ensure Jaime was safely released.

As I said I think giving Tyrion a job wasn't a sign of accepting Tyrion as his heir, just as seeing someone who might be the right person for the job. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

I think he feared he wouldn't see him but directed his energies to that end. Catelyn helped him out, but his strategy of making a deal with Bolton and the Freys to doublecross Robb so he is defeated by stealth, at a distance from Riverrun where Jaime was prisoner, might have still saved Jaime's life. If Jaime has not escaped, Robb and Catelyn could have been seized and some kinds of terms made to ensure Jaime was safely released.

The Red Wedding was only planned after Cat let Jaime go. We don't know if he had done that if Jaime had still been a prisoner but if the Red Wedding had then happened as it did the Blackfish most definitely would have killed Jaime in answer to that atrocity.

You have to keep in mind that the execution of Ned was already something the Starks and Tullys couldn't just ignore or forgive. Jaime was always a dead man sitting in a cell, and Tywin knew that.

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

As I said I think giving Tyrion a job wasn't a sign of accepting Tyrion as his heir, just as seeing someone who might be the right person for the job. 

It certainly wasn't Tywin accepting Tyrion as his heir but it was a sign for him pulling his ugly son out of his ass, basically, to send somebody with a proper name to KL. It wasn't a sign of a lot of trust, though, since the man Tywin really trusted was his brother Kevan. And he remained with Tywin in the Riverlands. Tywin didn't really consider the assignment in KL to be particularly important, knowing fully well that Joffrey wouldn't be saved by anything anyone did in the capital but rather by an army from outside, most notably his own.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

22 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

To be fair, Tyrion does do his utmost to screw up every opportunity he gets to show Tywin his ability. I am not even going to get into his childhood marriage and the tragic and horrific end that came to but even in King's Landing he did exactly what Tywin had told him not to do, to not take his prostitute surrogate-lover to court which ended up with Tyrion making threats against his own family to protect the prostitute. Any good will Tyrion might had gained with Tywin for his apt handling of the situation in King's Landing went mostly down the drain with that. Also Tyrion would had lost the city and his life if it was not for his father and the Tyrells arriving to kick Stannis' ass.

Although Tywin did award Tyrion with one of the most important positions in the realm and a wife of great prestige even after that, so who knows. Tywin probably does recognize than even after all of Tyrion's screw ups Tyrion is still a Lannister that Tywin can have use for. Well at least until the alleged regicide but that's something only Jaime could get away with.

So much this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Completely with you on this thread @Humble Maester as it pertains to Tywin/Tyrion's relationship.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Tywin gave up on Jaime and Hound kissed Sansa.

Tyrion wanted to believe it until Tywin's reaction when Tyrion wanted to inherit Casterly Rock in Storm of Swords.

[Humble Maester]

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

So much this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Completely with you on this thread @Humble Maester as it pertains to Tywin/Tyrion's relationship.

Cheers!

I think the Tywin-Tyrion relationship is one of the more interesting ones in the books to interpret and analyse, largely due to us getting nearly all the information about it from the fan-favorite Tyrion, who, while having real issues with his father, always sees everything his father does or says through the worst possible point of view. I can easily understand, after Tyrion keeps calling his father out on literally everything, why so many people think of Tywin as an inhumane monster. On the other hand if we "listen" to the other people around Tywin,  take what Tyrion says with the understanding of the deep dislike he has for his father, and consider what Tywin was actually doing, then we can construct a more accurate picture of a Tywin as a harsh and extremely demanding father who was loathe to show emotions but still put his family and especially those who met his expectations first. After all he was making Tyrion permanent member of the council due to his obvious skill, while planning to ship Cersei away for her screwups.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:26 AM, mr.archanfel said:

In the chapter where Tyrion was named the hand of the king, he thought Tywin had gave up on Jaime and he became the only son. However, after the battle of blackwater bay, Tywin started to mistreat Tyrion again despite Jaime still in enemy hand. Does that mean Tyrion was wrong and Tywin never gave up on Jaime? 

Also, what's Tywin's plan regarding his heir? Did he still hold hope that Jaime would quit the King's guard? 

Yes , his last words to Jaime you are not my son .

[Graydon Hicks]

well, remember that while jaime was growing up, living in the predominantly andal south, he likely grew up idealizing the great knights of history, much like bran did. and nearly every one of those great knights ended being amongst the brotherhood of the kingsguard: duncan the tall, aemon the dragonknight, and gerold hightower and arthur dayne, in jaimes own lifetime. he was even squire for arthur dayne. so it likely came to him that to be a great knight, worthy of the stories he was raised on, equaled be a kingsguard, that to be one was to be the other. thats likely why he was perfectly ok with being a KG, even though he was the heir to CR. it was his dream to be accorded among those legendary heroes of his fantasies.

[Stormourne]

Perhaps.

[averde]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:46 PM, Dofs said:

Jaime didn't want to become a KG. Cersei was 'convincing' him whole night to become one until Jaime finally gave in. Before that Jaime was fully prepared to become a Lord of Casterly Rock.

I'd love to know whether cersei allowed herself to make the, valid, point that Tywin had another son and so another potential heir. 

[averde]

On 8/17/2017 at 6:56 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Tywin cleaned up after Jaime and Cersei their entire lives. He won their wars, killed their enemies and even made Cersei Queen. Neither of them show him much appreciation though.

The fact that Jaime even wanted to become a Kingsguard after the age of 8 is as ridiculous to me as it was to Tywin. He is heir to Casterly Rock and gave that up to guard Aerys' door while he raped his sister-wife.

 

I agree that Tywin doesn't get the appreciation he deserves from his children but there are several important reasons to consider when judging Jaime and his decision to join the kingsguard. 

1. He is in love with cersei. This is important for several reasons, the first being his fear of losing cersei to rhaegar, jealousy is a powerful motivator but it's absolutely soul consuming toxic when you're in love (especially when it's your first love/ sexual relationship as a teenager). Second, the person you spend the majority of your time with and happens to your sexual partner is constantly trying to sell you on the idea. Third, he wants to avoid marrying someone himself, and the kingsguard vows give him an excuse to be "single" for life with little explanation. 

2. Glory of the kingsguard. The kingsguard for a teenage boy in Westeros would be like a celebrity, especially to someone like Jaime whose skill set and interests even early on heavily favored martial prowess, fearlessness, and medieval warfare over learning and courtly affairs. It's like a boy who plays baseball and dreams of playing for the Chicago Cubs, those are his heroes and he'd love to be one. 

3. Regardless of how hard Tywin was on his children, Jaime was still the golden boy in a golden family. He grew up from that perspective, where the one thing essentially not handed to him in everyone else's eyes is his martial prowess. Becoming a kingsguard steps him out of the shadow of an overbearing and distinguished father both in the minds of his peers and in the history books. Again something appealing to a teenage boy. He's in many ways attempting to forge his own unique identity. By making his decision he's no longer viewed as Tywins son and heir the future Lord of one of the most powerful houses in Westeros expected to deal with a wide range of issues both courtly, taxes, laws, etc. He's instead Jaime Lannister, member of the kingsguard.