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princess brittany

dany and jon

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She's not going to be shocked that she had sex with her nephew. Nobility in Westeros marries first cousins, uncles, etc. more often than not. (And her own family usually marries siblings, so this is a step up.)

If he had any memories of Rhaegar or anything, she'd definitely be interested in that, but he doesn't. The fact that they're family is an interesting curiosity that seems like it should mean something, but it really doesn't.

So the only big issue will be the fact that it gives him a better claim to the throne than hers. I'm pretty sure it's going to be resolved either by the two of them marrying to unite the claims, or by Jon dying and leaving her the best heir again. But along the way, she should have some interesting conversations with her advisors about what it means. She's spent her whole adult life believing that she should, and inevitably will, be Queen because she's the legitimate heir, and now that's not true. That will throw her for a loop.

Ultimately, I think she'll realize that a claim just gets your foot in the door, and once you're in there it has nothing to do with whether you will win or whether you should win. She will take the throne because people want her to be Queen wherever she goes, because she has the power to take the throne, because she has a plan for how to improve the lives of her subjects, because she saved the world, because she made all the hard mistakes overseas and fucked up Slaver's Bay so she doesn't have to repeat them in Westeros, etc. The fact that she thought she was the best heir is the least of it.

And everyone will live happily ever after. For a couple days. And then they'll realize that even without the dead and Cersei, they still have food shortages, no leaders in half the realms, a whole generation of men mostly wiped out, 100000 Dothraki to settle, no heir when Dany dies, no idea how to turn her vague dream of a government that serves the people into reality, …

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At this point the rules of succession are moot.  Targ rule began by conquest.  Legalistic quibbles do not matter when the person pressing the claim has the bigger army and dragons.

Renly's claim was a simple one too.  He had the bigger army and followers that genuinely liked him, for example.

Dany needs to win battles and the hearts and minds of the common folk and she is in.

Jon could have a gold plated certificate of birth and the notarized last will and testament of R and L and it would not matter.

I'm sure there is some relative in the Stormlands that would be the next Baratheon heir and yet Cersei is Queen in KL, as another example.

The above are my opinions.  I'm not setting myself up as some know it all arbiter of succession ala Pickard.

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9 minutes ago, Col Cinders said:

At this point the rules of succession are moot.

The main reason they matter is that Dany believes they do. She goes on about how she is the last Targaryen heir and the throne is hers by right of blood, and she's going to have to learn that this is her biggest mistake, and decide she still deserves the throne anyway.

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2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The main reason they matter is that Dany believes they do. She goes on about how she is the last Targaryen heir and the throne is hers by right of blood, and she's going to have to learn that this is her biggest mistake, and decide she still deserves the throne anyway.

Her aim is to break the wheel.  If she trusts in that goal then I think she is well on her way to deciding that she still deserves the throne.

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3 minutes ago, Col Cinders said:

Her aim is to break the wheel.  If she trusts in that goal then I think she is well on her way to deciding that she still deserves the throne.

Yeah, but I think discovering Jon's claim and then realizing that it doesn't really matter will be (and should be) important in her journey to deciding that.

Things will be more complicated in the books, where first she'll have to cope with fAegon, then learn he's not real, and then learn about Jon. And also where we'll have pages and pages of internal monologue instead of just a few discussions with Jon, Tyrion, and Varys. But I think in both versions of the story, this will be the main point of revealing R+L=J to the world. (There are plenty of other points to R+L=J, but not so much for the public revelation of it.)

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16 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Yeah, but I think discovering Jon's claim and then realizing that it doesn't really matter will be (and should be) important in her journey to deciding that.

Things will be more complicated in the books, where first she'll have to cope with fAegon, then learn he's not real, and then learn about Jon. And also where we'll have pages and pages of internal monologue instead of just a few discussions with Jon, Tyrion, and Varys. But I think in both versions of the story, this will be the main point of revealing R+L=J to the world. (There are plenty of other points to R+L=J, but not so much for the public revelation of it.)

Thanks for setting me straight.  I agree with all you wrote here.

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27 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Yeah, but I think discovering Jon's claim and then realizing that it doesn't really matter will be (and should be) important in her journey to deciding that.

Things will be more complicated in the books, where first she'll have to cope with fAegon, then learn he's not real, and then learn about Jon. And also where we'll have pages and pages of internal monologue instead of just a few discussions with Jon, Tyrion, and Varys. But I think in both versions of the story, this will be the main point of revealing R+L=J to the world. (There are plenty of other points to R+L=J, but not so much for the public revelation of it.)

Though I agree with this on a certain level - ie Dany believes it's her birthright to claim the throne and break the wheel and this belief could be throne into chaos if she finds out the throne is actually Jon's right more than hers - I still fail to see how it matters in Westeros as it currently stands.

Surely more than half the male population of Westeros has been lost in war and around 10% of the overall population lost to the growing cold. Dany may have imported as many Dothraki as there are Westerosi men that have died over the last 7 seasons. Add to this the carts full of Highgarden's food were burned in episode 4, that the Nights Watch is non existent, that there are more zombies gathering at the wall than people in Westeros. The IB has been paid back but willing to loan to import one of the biggest fighting forces from Essos into Westeros and Slavers Bay has pobably descended totally into chaos under the broken hearted rule of Dhario (obviously thrust aside last season to make way for Jon's penis in the dragon queen this season).

The Wheel is already broken, Dany just doesn't know it yet. Given that it is, what does it possibly matter who has more right under rules of succession to sit on a throne that will probably end up destroyed in their squabbles?

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I don't see this being much of an issue, as I can't envision Jon pressing his claim. Nor can I see him marrying Dany and leaving the North. Throw in the fact that Jon is now a wight, and I don't see him surviving the story.

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26 minutes ago, ummester said:

Though I agree with this on a certain level - ie Dany believes it's her birthright to claim the throne and break the wheel and this belief could be throne into chaos if she finds out the throne is actually Jon's right more than hers - I still fail to see how it matters in Westeros as it currently stands.

That's my point. It doesn't matter to anyone else in Westeros; it only matters to Dany's personal thoughts on her destiny. Once she works out that she should be Queen after all, Jon's not going to fight her over it, and nobody's going to rise up in rebellion demanding that he take the job even if he doesn't want it; Dany will be Queen and that'll be that. (Especially since, by the end of S8, Jon will probably be either married to her or dead.) And, now that she's decided to be Queen for the right reasons instead of the wrong one, she'll be a better Queen.

(It is possible that Tyrion or Davos will bring up the heirs issue—nobody's going to rebel today, but what about in 20 years, sometime trying to press Jon's son's claim?—but if so, it'll only be as part of an argument that Dany has to marry Jon.)

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On 8/18/2017 at 3:41 PM, princess brittany said:

what do you think dany will do when she finds out that jons her nephew? 

For a long time, I believed the show would not have Dany and Jon in a romantic relationship, b/c she's his aunt.

Guess I was wrong.

Now that it seems clear that they will be in a romantic relationship, though, I believe no one is going to make a big deal out of the fact that she's his aunt.  I believe it's going to be portrayed as no big deal.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong again.

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On 18.8.2017 at 10:41 PM, princess brittany said:

what do you think dany will do when she finds out that jons her nephew? 

My guess is they have sex and she gets pregnant (against all odds) before they find out.

Oh, btw, in their world - is it enough to be married before the child is born for him/her to be rightful heir or does the child also have to be conceived in marriage?

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31 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

My guess is they have sex and she gets pregnant (against all odds) before they find out.

Oh, btw, in their world - is it enough to be married before the child is born for him/her to be rightful heir or does the child also have to be conceived in marriage?

What was the prophecy about her future children?  Something like "not until the sun rises in the west" ?  I'm not sure about that and not sure if it is to be taken literally.  I am fairly sure that it is not a play on the English words sun and son being homophones.

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31 minutes ago, Col Cinders said:

What was the prophecy about her future children?  Something like "not until the sun rises in the west" ?  I'm not sure about that and not sure if it is to be taken literally.  I am fairly sure that it is not a play on the English words sun and son being homophones.

Dany wasn't asking whether she could have children again, she was asking when Drogo would return to her as he was. And Mirri's answer was, "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

So, it sounds more like Mirri is saying that her having another child is as unlikely as the sun rising in the west, not that one is dependent on the other (and that Drogo returning is dependent on both—or just that it's even more unlikely than both).

And, while I could see the sun rising in the west as a consequence of winning the War for the Dawn (because the Long Night suddenly ends at 18:00 or something), I can't see the seas going dry and the mountains blowing away (and frankly, if that did happen, that sounds even worse than the Long Night).

ETA: It's also worth noting that then next thing Mirri says is that when Dany burns her she will not scream, and then she does scream. So, maybe she's wrong about Dany being barren—especially since it's not even the thing she's prophesying about, it's just one of the examples of impossible things she comes up with to prophesy that Drogo will not return, which seems like a pretty easy thing to predict even without any magical powers.

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The prophecy is cleverly written. I could see even this in it: Dany will give birth to Jon's child and the child becomes the next heir. She dies and meets Drogo in afterlife.

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2 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

The prophecy is cleverly written. I could see even this in it: Dany will give birth to Jon's child and the child becomes the next heir. She dies and meets Drogo in afterlife.

But how does that fit any of the rest of the prophecy?

I could imagine that the Dothraki afterlife looks just like the normal planet but with all the oceans replaced by dust (like the Dothraki Sea), but why would the mountains be blowing in the wind. or the sun rise and set backward?

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5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But how does that fit any of the rest of the prophecy?

I could imagine that the Dothraki afterlife looks just like the normal planet but with all the oceans replaced by dust (like the Dothraki Sea), but why would the mountains be blowing in the wind. or the sun rise and set backward?

The long winter, war against the army of the dead. Most plausible interpretation would be that it will never happen. The mountains blowing in the wind could refer to the song of ice and fire, somehow. 

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23 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

The long winter, war against the army of the dead.

How could the long winter or the war against the dead cause/look like/symbolically represent/whatever any of the other parts of the prophecy, especially in connection with the prophecy overall meaning Drogo will return to Dany in the Dothraki afterlife after she dies giving birth to Jon's baby?

23 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Most plausible interpretation would be that it will never happen. 

Yes, that's what I think too. Either none of it will ever happen, or the prophecy is just wrong (or, I suppose, it's right, but trivially so—Drogo will never return, but it has nothing to do with any of the other stuff, some of which may happen).

23 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

The mountains blowing in the wind could refer to the song of ice and fire, somehow. 

How?

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21 minutes ago, falcotron said:

How?

If you mix dragons, fire, North, snow and battle that could refer to song of ice and fire.

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8 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

If you mix dragons, fire, North, snow and battle that could refer to song of ice and fire.

OK, but what does either half of that have to do with the sun coming up in the west or seas turning to dust or mountains floating like leaves or anything?

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