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Iron Mother

Will R+L=J Deliver?

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Let's face it.  The issue of the parentage of Jon Snow has been going on and on for quite some time now.  To me it is starting to feel very top-heavy and with every episode; the potential reveal weighing huger and portrayed as almost too significant to really pay off with the amount of time left in the show.

With 9(?) total episodes left to the entire story, most viewers already know Jon's parentage.  The importance of it and what it means to the show is now (for me) beginning to become a drag.  It's actually on the verge of becoming boring.  With ALL the mega other things happening in Westeros and ALL the other character arcs that have left to be played out, the payoff to "who is Jon Snow" looms larger and larger.  Meaning, with every easter egg we see concerning this, the stakes for what it means in the end GROW almost exponentially.

With the comparatively little time the show has left, will the R+L=J even live up to all the hype we keep experiencing in the show?  All the easter eggs about it being dropped in almost every episode now?  WHAT can it possibly mean in the end (based on what the show has portrayed so far) that could earn the proper outcome which the build-up has purported and caused viewers to expect? 

Wild theories involving things the show has NEVER addressed cannot be introduced this late in the series.  It's too late.  The R+L=J saga must conclude with basically the characters/information/story arcs we have already seen.  This idea of R+L=J failing to live up to the hype is something I have never seen asked here or in other places in the interwebs. 

This Internet has pored over almost every possible theory to what it all means in the end.  From Jon riding a dragon to Jon claiming the Iron Throne as Rhaegar's son.  "The Prince That Was Promised" seems to be what people want to culminate with this.  But I'm not sure the show has even gone into any depth concerning that so far. 

WILL R+L=J fail our expectations in the end?  What saieth the Community?

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This is a good point. I understand what you are saying.....

 

but, I wonder if for show only watchers the hints have only started being dropped since the ToJ flashback scene, I cant recall if any other hints were dropped in earlier seasons that show only watchers might have picked up on ? So I think my point is that show watchers may not feel this way, but for book readers yes I can understand exactly what you are saying. I do hope they expose the R+L=J before the end of the season. I don't personally want it dragged out till S8, but I do get why they have spent time this season sort of amping it up.

I hope I made sense ( have the flu atm and feel like shite ). 

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I think it will deliver some good drama at least.

Everyone's reaction will make for some intense scenes in the final episodes.

How will Dany react to the news that Jon has the best claim to the throne?  How will Arya/Sansa react to the news that he's a true Targ and not a Stark?  Then we have the rest of the North.  Do they keep this a secret from the realm?

Anyway, it will make for some dramatic interactions so it will help deliver some good tv.

I don't know if it can ever live up to expectations though.

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I think it's pretty likely that in the novels, the real point of R+L=J is going to be its effect on the other characters. Of course there's also the prophecy, but with or without R+L=J, it's already obvious that Jon is important in the War for the Dawn 2.0, and bringing the wildlings into the fold, and so on, so there's actually not much to add there.

The biggest thing is going to be Dany. She'll have already gone through the shock of discovering fAegon, then learning he's not real (or just defeating him without ever being sure), before having to come to terms with Jon. So it won't really be the surprise that matters, it'll be the final realization that why she will be Queen, why she should be Queen, and what she should do as Queen really has nothing to do with being the primogenitive heir to the Targaryen dynasty.

And then there's the Stark kids, especially Sansa, who will probably finally have accepted him as a Stark just in time to learn that he isn't one. Except he still is—he's just a cousin instead of a half-brother. So… I don't really know where GRRM will go with this.

And the Northern Lords—their fighting for independence led them from a true Stark, to a conspiracy led by a fat immigrant trader, to a bastard who turned out to actually be a Targaryen. (I'm not sure Jon will get elected KitN, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up following him to war against the dead.) And each one was actually better for them than the one before. Maybe the North isn't so different after all.

And so on.

The last thing it's going to be about is actually putting Jon on the throne. If that happens, it'll be a marriage to Dany that unites the claims and make sure there's no civil war a generation down the line, not everyone clamoring for Rhaegar's son to lead them.

On the show, if they do the same thing, it won't be as interesting, because we don't spend half our time inside the PoV characters' inner thoughts. Maybe they can turn the Dany monologues into Dany dialogues with Tyrion or something, but the rest, I can't see being exciting. So maybe they have to do something else, and I can't imagine what it could be that wouldn't be disappointing.

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It will mean nothing. Bran will likely tell Jon and Jon will ask Bran to never speak of this again. For Jon to be the son of Ned is far more important to him than being the son of Rhaegar. Knowing his mother is a Stark will be enough for him and him alone. Some secrets are too great to be shared.

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@Iron Mother fantastic OP, one-hundred percent I agree with you.  I actually don't care if he is Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aegon Sand, Jaeharys Targaryen, or LeBron James.  He is who he is, a name and different set of birth parents to change that.  Especially considering all of the recent right of conquest and king/queen by proclamation going on it would be really strange if his birth parents and their situation came to light and people were like "stop the track - crown this man right now."

I think it really is just going to be used as another reason for Jon to do what he does best (besides oral sex) in season 8, and that's brood.  Just walk around with a "aw shit, I just impregnated my aunt and she's going to have a mad bastard kid" face.  I hope D&D are fans of the show "Arrested Development" and end an episode with Jon saying "I've made a huge mistake" while taking a forget-me-now pill and making the GOB Bluth face right after the reveal of his parentage.

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3 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

It will mean nothing. Bran will likely tell Jon and Jon will ask Bran to never speak of this again. For Jon to be the son of Ned is far more important to him than being the son of Rhaegar. Knowing his mother is a Stark will be enough for him and him alone. Some secrets are too great to be shared.

I wonder what Jon will think, knowing that his "father" sent him to the Wall and telling him he'd explain who his mother was after he'd taken his KW vows. That way with Jon already at the Wall "until his death" Ned wouldn't have to worry about Robert's rage or how Jon would react to being the true heir to the Targaryen's. Jon will always identify being Stark but once he learns of his heritage will he fault Ned's cowardice in not telling him and embrace being a dragon.

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I'm curious how Jon will react and how those around him will react when everyone finds out, however, it wouldn't surprise me if the secret stays hidden. 

We know he's a legitimate Targaryen, but perhaps no one else will find out. It would be disappointing for it be confirmed to us as watchers of the show and readers of the books and nothing come of it, but in some ways it would be a very powerful element the story. I can see that happening. 

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I think the show is placing so much emphasis and so late into the show as a justification for Jon eventually sitting the Iron Throne.  They are placing way more emphasis on his heritage than even the prophecy aspect to it. 

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I'm expecting it to be tremendously underwhelming. Partly because I'm deliberately pushing my expectations below zero, so the show has a better chance delivering a positive surprise. And partly because 80% of the fun in R+L=J is the R+L part, which the show very kindly cut. Yeah, 10% of me was interested in who is Jon's mother and 10% of me knows we need background for him to be the rightful and chosen king of the entire world. But it's Rhaegar and Lyanna I like, not Jon. 

Of that story, we had half a flashback from the ToJ when Jon was born. And one flashback from Ned's childhood in which we were reminded by a blond child actor that Lyanna exists to "build up" this whole thing. The flashbacks were completely abandoned, Rhaegar is sometimes mentioned but nobody seems to really care about him. The audience knows the checklist is complete. R + L +annulment + secret marriage = King J, Isildur's heir, the chosen boy who was promised and lived and saved the world and brings balance to the force and screws his aunt. 

I don't see the surprise in this story unless Bran decides to take Jon on a flashback trip and creep on his parents in the past. (Or we find out there was another baby at ToJ - before Jon screws his twin sister) But I don't see them doing a Harrenhal flashback or any other R+L related flashback. 

Edited by RhaenysB

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17 hours ago, Count Winter said:

In the show, its just not that important...

What?

Jon being the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms is what the entire plot is based on. 

  • If Rhaegar doesn't run away with Lyanna the rest of the story doesn't happen.
  • If Kingsguard are with Rhaegar instead of Lyanna (because the baby would be a bastard), Robert is killed, and the rebellion ends.
  • Rhaegar becomes King after Aerys, Dany & Viserys never flee to Dragonstone.
  • Dany is never sold to Drogo, and is never gifted petrified dragon eggs. 

Jon is the figurative embodiment of the name of the series: Ice and Fire. 

R+L=J is pretty much everything. Books & Show. 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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31 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

What?

Jon being the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms is what the entire plot is based on. 

  • If Rhaegar doesn't run away with Lyanna the rest of the story doesn't happen.
  • If Kingsguard are with Rhaegar instead of Lyanna (because the baby would be a bastard), Robert is killed, and the rebellion ends.
  • Rhaegar becomes King after Aerys, Dany & Viserys never flee to Dragonstone.
  • Dany is never sold to Drogo, and is never gifted petrified dragon eggs. 

Jon is the figurative embodiment of the name of the series: Ice and Fire. 

R+L=J is pretty much everything. Books & Show. 

Agreed. Everything follows from Rhaegar's actions, which appear specifically to bring about the birth of TPTWP. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 5:48 PM, Iron Mother said:

Let's face it.  The issue of the parentage of Jon Snow has been going on and on for quite some time now.  To me it is starting to feel very top-heavy and with every episode; the potential reveal weighing huger and portrayed as almost too significant to really pay off with the amount of time left in the show.

With 9(?) total episodes left to the entire story, most viewers already know Jon's parentage.  The importance of it and what it means to the show is now (for me) beginning to become a drag.  It's actually on the verge of becoming boring.  With ALL the mega other things happening in Westeros and ALL the other character arcs that have left to be played out, the payoff to "who is Jon Snow" looms larger and larger.  Meaning, with every easter egg we see concerning this, the stakes for what it means in the end GROW almost exponentially.

With the comparatively little time the show has left, will the R+L=J even live up to all the hype we keep experiencing in the show?  All the easter eggs about it being dropped in almost every episode now?  WHAT can it possibly mean in the end (based on what the show has portrayed so far) that could earn the proper outcome which the build-up has purported and caused viewers to expect? 

Wild theories involving things the show has NEVER addressed cannot be introduced this late in the series.  It's too late.  The R+L=J saga must conclude with basically the characters/information/story arcs we have already seen.  This idea of R+L=J failing to live up to the hype is something I have never seen asked here or in other places in the interwebs. 

This Internet has pored over almost every possible theory to what it all means in the end.  From Jon riding a dragon to Jon claiming the Iron Throne as Rhaegar's son.  "The Prince That Was Promised" seems to be what people want to culminate with this.  But I'm not sure the show has even gone into any depth concerning that so far. 

WILL R+L=J fail our expectations in the end?  What saieth the Community?

No, in my opinion the "big reveal" will not live up the hype, and will be anti-climactic, in part b/c so many fans have known for so long what was coming.

But hey, it's still important, especially with the information we got last week, that Rhaegar got a divorce and then actually married Lyanna, which means that Jon is "legitimate," and thus the true king and heir.  (Perhaps ironically, though, I still do not believe that will mean Jon will be on the Iron throne alone at the end.  I believe there will be a tri-archy, with the power split 3 ways, very likely between Jon, Dany and Tyrion)

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The only interesting part will be what Daenerys makes of it. She might find it was much easier to talk of rights when she thought they were hers.

Mostly it's just good for laughs. It was funny enough when Drogon and Jon were making friends, and I actually laughed when we got the "Rhaegar married Lyanna" reveal. It feels like a fan fic where the author keeps clumsily confirming all their favourite fan theories.

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2 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

The only interesting part will be what Daenerys makes of it. She might find it was much easier to talk of rights when she thought they were hers.

Mostly it's just good for laughs. It was funny enough when Drogon and Jon were making friends, and I actually laughed when we got the "Rhaegar married Lyanna" reveal. It feels like a fan fic where the author keeps clumsily confirming all their favourite fan theories.

This will probably be the mantra of everyone who raged against the biggest mystery in the books. Blow it off like it's "fan fiction" because they got it wrong, in spite of every detail you need of it being in the very first book.

Re: Dany - I think Right of Succession is very important to her, which is why I think she'll be the one who bends the knee without a moment's hesitation once she finds out who he is, which is why we've been set up with her nonstop "Bend the Knee" mantra. It will be beautiful and I will cry. 

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16 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

This will probably be the mantra of everyone who raged against the biggest mystery in the books. Blow it off like it's "fan fiction" because they got it wrong, in spite of every detail you need of it being in the very first book.

Re: Dany - I think Right of Succession is very important to her, which is why I think she'll be the one who bends the knee without a moment's hesitation once she finds out who he is, which is why we've been set up with her nonstop "Bend the Knee" mantra. It will be beautiful and I will cry. 

Well I hope you're not talking about me here. I only care that the story is good. I don't get all these people who put so much stock in romance between characters and all that stuff, or whether or not Rhaegar was nice to Elia or something, as if it were Twilight. The "fan fic" comment was because it's being revealed clumsily as if a fan were trying to insert bulletproof confirmations of their favourite theories in - it's not about what happens but how it's written. As for details in the books, they're irrelevant to the show.

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On 8/19/2017 at 0:03 AM, Iron Mother said:

Show only tho.... Not enough time left

I've heard (don't know if I'm right) that the final season will consist of feature film length episodes. You can get a whole lot in one movie, and they'll have seven.

Edited by Wildling Queen

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