u.s. politics: faygo to the polls

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 

So you decide not to take my advice about practicing zen mediation then?

Okay. Here's why I was so pissed about your initial "Nazis will never be more than a fringe" post.

1. They have the approval and encouragement of the sitting President.

2. This President is from a party that also controls Congress, the Supreme Court, and 2/3 of state governments.

3. This party has already spent most of their legislative energy in the last half century or so attacking the rights of racial minorities and LGBTQ people. They are already halfway down the Nazi platform.

4. It has been established that US law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by white supremacists. They cannot be relied upon to protect minorities against racial violence; too often they are the perpetrators of that violence.

5. A few years ago, the Justice Department issued a report that white supremacist militias are the greatest domestic terror threat. The right wing/Republican reaction was to loudly condemn and disbelieve the report and whine about how oppressed white people are.

6. The Trump administration has cut the funds that were once devoted to stopping white supremacist terror groups.

7. There is a great deal of evidence that Putin is funding the rise of right wing nationalist movements around the world to help weaken Western democracies.

All of these facts were brought up earlier in the thread. But you ride in with your glib assurance, based on nothing but the pleasing scent of your own farts, that Nazis will never amount much despite the fact that they just had a fucking armed torchlight march through a major city, threatened worshippers at a synagogue in that city, and killed a peaceful protester.

So yes, by minimizing a vile threat out if complete ignorance and disregard for the lived experiences of people under threat from Nazi violence, you are the Nazis' useful idiot: a clueless numpty who unwittingly spreads the propaganda of a hostile power.

You have never bothered to engage with any of the above facts. You just make irrelevant citations of the First Amendment or stupendously shitty moral equivalencies between Nazis and the soldiers who fought them, and respond with limp jokes when asked to support your assertions.

People like Manhole and Iamme90 are at least able to engage with facts and other people's arguments. But you don't seem to possess the awareness or knowledge to be anything but a Chip Diller in the middle of a rising Nazi threat.

You'd already spent the day making an ass of yourself on other topics in this thread. You've shown yourself to be an ignorant and complacent lightweight incapable of supporting your shitty arguments, and incapable of modifying your naive ideas in response to new information. I have shown you the contempt you deserve. Go find some Zen in that.

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Okay. Here's why I was so pissed about your initial "Nazis will never be more than a fringe" post.

1. They have the approval and encouragement of the sitting President.

2. This President is from a party that also controls Congress, the Supreme Court, and 2/3 of state governments.

3. This party has already spent most of their legislative energy in the last half century or so attacking the rights of racial minorities and LGBTQ people. They are already halfway down the Nazi platform.

4. It has been established that US law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by white supremacists. They cannot be relied upon to protect minorities against racial violence; too often they are the perpetrators of that violence.

5. A few years ago, the Justice Department issued a report that white supremacist militias are the greatest domestic terror threat. The right wing/Republican reaction was to loudly condemn and disbelieve the report and whine about how oppressed white people are.

6. The Trump administration has cut the funds that were once devoted to stopping white supremacist terror groups.

7. There is a great deal of evidence that Putin is funding the rise of right wing nationalist movements around the world to help weaken Western democracies.

All of these facts were brought up earlier in the thread. But you ride in with your glib assurance, based on nothing but the pleasing scent of your own farts, that Nazis will never amount much despite the fact that they just had a fucking armed torchlight march through a major city, threatened worshippers at a synagogue in that city, and killed a peaceful protester.

So yes, by minimizing a vile threat out if complete ignorance and disregard for the lived experiences of people under threat from Nazi violence, you are the Nazis' useful idiot: a clueless numpty who unwittingly spreads the propaganda of a hostile power.

You have never bothered to engage with any of the above facts. You just make irrelevant citations of the First Amendment or stupendously shitty moral equivalencies between Nazis and the soldiers who fought them, and respond with limp jokes when asked to support your assertions.

People like Manhole and Iamme90 are at least able to engage with facts and other people's arguments. But you don't seem to possess the awareness or knowledge to be anything but a Chip Diller in the middle of a rising Nazi threat.

You'd already spent the day making an ass of yourself on other topics in this thread. You've shown yourself to be an ignorant and complacent lightweight incapable of supporting your shitty arguments, and incapable of modifying your naive ideas in response to new information. I have shown you the contempt you deserve. Go find some Zen in that.

Vicious!.....but true and this had to be said.

[GAROVORKIN]

Is there a sequel  to to this novel you've written to me or is  a standalone novel ? 

[Clegane'sPup]

26 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Okay. Here's why I was so pissed about your initial "Nazis will never be more than a fringe" post.

1. They have the approval and encouragement of the sitting President.

2. This President is from a party that also controls Congress, the Supreme Court, and 2/3 of state governments.

3. This party has already spent most of their legislative energy in the last half century or so attacking the rights of racial minorities and LGBTQ people. They are already halfway down the Nazi platform.

4. It has been established that US law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by white supremacists. They cannot be relied upon to protect minorities against racial violence; too often they are the perpetrators of that violence.

5. A few years ago, the Justice Department issued a report that white supremacist militias are the greatest domestic terror threat. The right wing/Republican reaction was to loudly condemn and disbelieve the report and whine about how oppressed white people are.

6. The Trump administration has cut the funds that were once devoted to stopping white supremacist terror groups.

7. There is a great deal of evidence that Putin is funding the rise of right wing nationalist movements around the world to help weaken Western democracies.

All of these facts were brought up earlier in the thread. But you ride in with your glib assurance, based on nothing but the pleasing scent of your own farts, that Nazis will never amount much despite the fact that they just had a fucking armed torchlight march through a major city, threatened worshippers at a synagogue in that city, and killed a peaceful protester.

So yes, by minimizing a vile threat out if complete ignorance and disregard for the lived experiences of people under threat from Nazi violence, you are the Nazis' useful idiot: a clueless numpty who unwittingly spreads the propaganda of a hostile power.

You have never bothered to engage with any of the above facts. You just make irrelevant citations of the First Amendment or stupendously shitty moral equivalencies between Nazis and the soldiers who fought them, and respond with limp jokes when asked to support your assertions.

People like Manhole and Iamme90 are at least able to engage with facts and other people's arguments. But you don't seem to possess the awareness or knowledge to be anything but a Chip Diller in the middle of a rising Nazi threat.

You'd already spent the day making an ass of yourself on other topics in this thread. You've shown yourself to be an ignorant and complacent lightweight incapable of supporting your shitty arguments, and incapable of modifying your naive ideas in response to new information. I have shown you the contempt you deserve. Go find some Zen in that.

Who are you channeling? Facts, facts, facts I don't need no stinking facts. I have social media.

Exsqueeze me but who elected the pumpklin as the POTUS? He didn't get my vote.

[GAROVORKIN]

43 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Okay. Here's why I was so pissed about your initial "Nazis will never be more than a fringe" post.

1. They have the approval and encouragement of the sitting President.

2. This President is from a party that also controls Congress, the Supreme Court, and 2/3 of state governments.

3. This party has already spent most of their legislative energy in the last half century or so attacking the rights of racial minorities and LGBTQ people. They are already halfway down the Nazi platform.

4. It has been established that US law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by white supremacists. They cannot be relied upon to protect minorities against racial violence; too often they are the perpetrators of that violence.

5. A few years ago, the Justice Department issued a report that white supremacist militias are the greatest domestic terror threat. The right wing/Republican reaction was to loudly condemn and disbelieve the report and whine about how oppressed white people are.

6. The Trump administration has cut the funds that were once devoted to stopping white supremacist terror groups.

7. There is a great deal of evidence that Putin is funding the rise of right wing nationalist movements around the world to help weaken Western democracies.

All of these facts were brought up earlier in the thread. But you ride in with your glib assurance, based on nothing but the pleasing scent of your own farts, that Nazis will never amount much despite the fact that they just had a fucking armed torchlight march through a major city, threatened worshippers at a synagogue in that city, and killed a peaceful protester.

So yes, by minimizing a vile threat out if complete ignorance and disregard for the lived experiences of people under threat from Nazi violence, you are the Nazis' useful idiot: a clueless numpty who unwittingly spreads the propaganda of a hostile power.

You have never bothered to engage with any of the above facts. You just make irrelevant citations of the First Amendment or stupendously shitty moral equivalencies between Nazis and the soldiers who fought them, and respond with limp jokes when asked to support your assertions.

People like Manhole and Iamme90 are at least able to engage with facts and other people's arguments. But you don't seem to possess the awareness or knowledge to be anything but a Chip Diller in the middle of a rising Nazi threat.

You'd already spent the day making an ass of yourself on other topics in this thread. You've shown yourself to be an ignorant and complacent lightweight incapable of supporting your shitty arguments, and incapable of modifying your naive ideas in response to new information. I have shown you the contempt you deserve. Go find some Zen in that.

 

I did offer you an olive branch Dante  and you responded with an Abrams tank.   

 

I think

[DanteGabriel]

6 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 

I did offer you an olive branch Dante  and you responded with an Abrams tank.   

 

I think

If you want to make peace, get over your precious hurt feelings and legitimately engage with the points I raised. Saying "I want to make peace" after I've dragged your dumb ass over multiple topics just tells me you're as incapable of legitimate discussion as I think you are. This is the last I'll address you until you've actually tried to deal with the facts I've put out there for you to square with your obliviousness about Nazi threats. Show you're worth the effort, junior.

[Kalbear]

15 hours ago, dmc515 said:

That was not my argument - my argument was that based on the standard you were using, the US would be described as "losing its democracy" more so if it imposed restrictions on free speech.  Our score is a 90, which, while not up to par with other nations is not too far off.  I don't necessarily have a problem with more free speech restrictions, but I also think free speech as an issue in general is very low on the list of priorities for improving this country as a democracy - and, obviously, Freedom House agrees.

I know it wasn't your argument - it was @Manhole Eunuchsbane's. You were just responding to my quip. 

[GAROVORKIN]

1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

If you want to make peace, get over your precious hurt feelings and legitimately engage with the points I raised. Saying "I want to make peace" after I've dragged your dumb ass over multiple topics just tells me you're as incapable of legitimate discussion as I think you are. This is the last I'll address you until you've actually tried to deal with the facts I've put out there for you to square with your obliviousness about Nazi threats. Show you're worth the effort, junior.

Junior?  Can you imagine what is running though my mind right now  after reading that last word ? 

 

 

 

 

[Kalbear]

16 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I love how the slippery slope argument you guys forward is 100% immutable while mine is horseshit.

It isn't a slippery slope argument in this case; it is a fear that history will literally repeat itself. We aren't thinking about what will happen hypothetically, we're seeing very similar vibes to what happened already in a Democratic country, and we're seeing the same kind of appeasement arguments that failed to achieve victory there as well. 

That would be why your argument is somewhat bullshit - because one is based on history, while the other is based entirely on speculation.

[Kalbear]

13 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Again with the diminishing identity bullshit. What percentage of a vote do caucasians get in your new regime? 25%? 33%? 50%? What are we looking at here?

This is fair, but also really missing things. For the most part, you will not be able to understand the actual fear folks like @Inigima might have when they see literal nazis marching in the US. It is just not something that is part of your identity. That doesn't mean you can't have a voice, but it does mean that you saying 'you really shouldn't have anything to be afraid of' is incredibly tone deaf. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This is fair, but also really missing things. For the most part, you will not be able to understand the actual fear folks like @Inigima might have when they see literal nazis marching in the US. It is just not something that is part of your identity. That doesn't mean you can't have a voice, but it does mean that you saying 'you really shouldn't have anything to be afraid of' is incredibly tone deaf. 

That would be pertinent had I actually said it. 

/That said, you're absolutely right regarding my perception vs Ini's perception. My privilege is always going to color my opinion/perception to some degree.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It isn't a slippery slope argument in this case; it is a fear that history will literally repeat itself. We aren't thinking about what will happen hypothetically, we're seeing very similar vibes to what happened already in a Democratic country, and we're seeing the same kind of appeasement arguments that failed to achieve victory there as well. 

That would be why your argument is somewhat bullshit - because one is based on history, while the other is based entirely on speculation.

Eh, so there's no examples of violent revolutions throughout history that began as just causes then went off the rails? I agree that the slippery slope argument that many of you are forwarding is more sound and well reasoned. There are some really stark and frightening comparisons and examples to be made, granted. But it is still a slippery slope argument. We're not there yet. 

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Junior?  Can you imagine what is running though my mind right now  after reading that last word ? 

Maybe something about RescueBots, rolling to the rescue? Fidget spinners? 

@dmc515 - you mentioned before that you'd be really happy to support White Supremacists/neonazis as legitimate terrorist groups in the US. I would too. Here's my problem with relying on that as any kind of a solution:

Trump and  the GOP.

One of the first things Trump did was squash the research into the dangers of radicalization by white supremacy, and then he doubled down on this by cutting all funding to un-radicalize white supremacists and go after them as gangs. If Obama or Clinton were around, I could reasonably say that yeah, the government can and should take a stronger role in looking into it - but the government has already failed in this regard.

I cannot rely on the government to go after white supremacists more.

I cannot rely on the government to treat nazis as a terror group or even figure out a reasonable policy that would allow them to do so without, say, going after BLM as a terrorist group in the same way. 

I cannot rely on the police - who have already shown themselves to be at least part of the problem - in enforcing these issues, nor can I rely on the government to attempt to rein in the police that are bad, given the current government stance on roughing up people. 

I am not saying that one shouldn't - @Sword of Doom and I disagree with that, in that I believe there are in theory ways in which the government can actually help. But I am saying right now assuming that the government can help and will help is actively dangerous, given that we have Trump and Sessions running the law department, and Gorsuch et al at the top of SCOTUS. So saying that the government should do these things is true, and it is also entirely lacking in any helpful action. 

So I'll ask you a hypothetical. Assume the government cannot act to stop white supremacy from rising. How do you feel about violence of private individuals then?

 

[Jo498]

If one looks at actual historical examples (street fighting of militant leftist and fascist groups in 1920s Germany, Spanish civil war in the 1930s), more violence usually helped the fascists, maybe because that's their home turf. Just saying.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Jo498 said:

If one looks at actual historical examples (street fighting of militant leftist and fascist groups in 1920s Germany, Spanish civil war in the 1930s), more violence usually helped the fascists, maybe because that's their home turf. Just saying.

Somewhat? What didn't happen was the widespread protest and condemnation in Germany.

That DID, however, happen in the US during the 30s, even with the Nazi party having actual rallies that filled up Madison Square Garden. And that didn't seem to swing things too far. 

[Bonnot OG]

21 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

If one looks at actual historical examples (street fighting of militant leftist and fascist groups in 1920s Germany, Spanish civil war in the 1930s), more violence usually helped the fascists, maybe because that's their home turf. Just saying.

No, the biggest issue in both cases were infighting among leftists. In Germany the communists labeled the social democrats as a bigger enemy than the nazis, similar to how Stein labeled Clinton worse than Trump.

If they knew in the beginning what their principles were and answered Hitler's people blow for blow while they w were still weak and in their infancy, they would have hampered their development.

In Spain, the communists actually fucked over the anarchists. 

And if you seriously think not fighting them is the best way, what option do you propose? If they get into power, they will rewrite the rules and benefit them. They will then put any dissenters into prison and then torture and kill them. 
 

[GAROVORKIN]

13 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

No, the biggest issue in both cases were infighting among leftists. In Germany the communists labeled the social democrats as a bigger enemy than the nazis, similar to how Stein labeled Clinton worse than Trump. 

In Spain, the communists actually fucked over the anarchists. 

And if you seriously think not fighting them is the best way, what option do you propose? If they get into power, they will rewrite the rules and benefit them. They will then put any dissenters into prison and then torture and kill them. 

 

Economic and political conditions in the US do not  resembled Weimar Germany of the 1930's. If they did, then just maybe  the scenario of them coming to power becomes more  plausible .

[Clegane'sPup]

47 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So I'll ask you a hypothetical. Assume the government cannot act to stop white supremacy from rising. How do you feel about violence of private individuals then?

Ever heard about the browning of America?  White supremacy is passé. As the law makers age and pass on they will be replaced by mestizo’s and mulato’s.  Save your outrage. I mean this in a positive sense. My two handsome, intelligent sons are a mix of Fillipo and Caucasian. 

There comes a time when issues and agenda’s cannot be mixed. Why do people join groups?

To be more specific why are there gangs of violent characters wandering around?

 

[Prue]

3 hours ago, Shryke said:

What's the answer? You don't let them speak. It's really not that hard.

Your last paragraph here really illustrates the extent to which you are not understanding the point. (frankly, I have zero idea where you are getting due process here) By allowing a system of absolutist free speech you allow the spread of ideas and political movements that undermine that very system. A free and democratic society with the rule of law does not protect itself.

To use the analogy from A Man for All Seasons, More imagines that the forest protects him as much as the Devil. But he's a fool because this quote can't imagine that allowing the Devil protection simply allows him to grow till he's powerful enough to control the whole thing. And at that point, all the trees in the england ain't gonna do shit. White supremacists and fascists aren't gonna do you a solid because you kept the system in place for them. They will hide behind the protections you afford them and then when they get the chance they will stomp your face in with no regard for the ideals you hold that you believe protect the both of you from each other.

I mean, we know this already. They've been doing it for well over a century in the US. And it ain't like this is uniquely American either. Guys like Erdogan and Duerte were legitimately elected. So was Trump. So were several of the governments in eastern Europe that have been taking troubling turns of late. But none of them have any interest in preserving that system.

Interesting. In Germany, the idea is that a democratic society which follows the rule of law *should* protect itself. It's called 'wehrhafte Demokratie' (democracy which is ready to defend itself). Maybe because the Weimar Republic allowed Hitler and the NSDAP to be legitimately elected, too. Btw, Erdogan even explicitly said at the beginning of his political career: "Democracy is a train which you leave once you have reached your destination...." And that is what he did. (Hopefully Trump won't follow this example. Especially as he even had this 'I could shoot somebody....' remark...)

Considering the 'right of free speech', I am a bit puzzled that so many people think that this means that nazis should be allowed to spew any anti-constitutional paroles. Constitutional rights *can* and *should* be limited at least by other constitutional rights. E.g. you hopefully wouldn't allow religious nutjobs to sacrifice a human being by cutting out his heart, as that would be against that person's right to live... ?   Similarly, you should be able to limit free speech if that speech has the goal to get rid of the democratic ideals of your state, as that is also something of value that should be protected. Today, the biggest threat to constitutional rights isn't only the 'evil evil government' any more, as they thought in the 18th century.

---

One more thing I wanted to add to this thread: No, that doesn't mean that I would be in favour of left-wing vigilante groups using violence against neo-nazis in the street. Having a problem with neo-nazis is a *domestic* problem which a democracy should at least try to deal with by legal means. And you should try to find out what you did wrong to enable the spread of nazi ideas. For example it's not very clever to allow anybody to homeschool, even if parents use that option with the explicit goal to indoctrinate their children with extremist views and keep them ignorant of the values a democracy should have.