Larry of the Lawn Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Talk about false equivalencies Alright it's not apples to oranges, it's just Nazis to nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Talk about false equivalencies. Where should we start carpet bombing? No need to carpet bomb. We have the technology for surgical strikes. I'd start with some tall buildings with a certain developer's name on them. But seriously, will there ever be a time, in your mind, for violent resistance to a genocidal ideology that has the approval of the President? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Just now, larrytheimp said: Alright it's not apples to oranges, it's just Nazis to nazis. No, it's still apples and oranges. It's 1940 to 2017. It's an aggressive, militarized, foreign power that had occupied a large number of our allies to a fringe group of Neo-nazi dipshits who are cosplaying out a dead fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: No, it's still apples and oranges. It's 1940 to 2017. It's an aggressive, militarized, foreign power that had occupied a large number of our allies to a fringe group of Neo-nazi dipshits who are cosplaying out a dead fantasy. It's past time to stop minimizing this as a dead fantasy. Charlottesville was inconceivable two years ago. They are gaining power and influence. How powerful should we let them get? Maybe this time we shouldn't wait until they've taken over the government of a major country and killed a few million undesirables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: No need to carpet bomb. We have the technology for surgical strikes. I'd start with some tall buildings with a certain developer's name on them. But seriously, will there ever be a time, in your mind, for violent resistance to a genocidal ideology that has the approval of the President? Sure, I'm all for self-defense. If they made any attempt to militarize, vape them. I'm all for it. I'm curious at to how you guys propose we go about this? House to house executions? We gonna spare the women and children? We gonna round 'em into camps? How are we going to wage this war fellas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Just now, DanteGabriel said: It's past time to stop minimizing this as a dead fantasy. And maybe this time we shouldn't wait until they've taken over the government of a major country and killed a few million undesirables. But it's time to maximize it into an equivalency of WWII? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: But it's time to maximize it into an equivalency of WWII? How many innocent people would you be okay with American Nazis killing and terrorizing before you deign to approve of violence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: I don't know what it does for us. Maybe it just means there will be fewer fascists to fight when the shit does hit the fan. But I'm tired of marginalized people having to wait for white Christian America to come around to equality. "Keep to these non-violent principles and don't scare the majority, even as they tacitly approve your disenfranchisement and the careless killing of your children, or they'll really turn on you" is a shitty thing to tell people, isn't it? I'm tired of the double standard that mediocre white guys are the only people whose economic grievance is worth listening to. White Christian America needs to fix its shit, because y'all go crazy when others try to do it. White Christian America wasn't ready to have a half-black President say that racism hasn't been solved yet, even in the most measured and milquetoast of ways, and they got so fed up with the inconvenience of having to think about racial justice from time to time, they went and elected a proud racist. Fuck, they can't even deal with a half-black football player sitting during the national anthem. And it's people of color and LGBTQ people that are the oversensitive ones? I'm holding out hope that Mueller's investigation brings down Trump, his family, and a bunch of Republican leaders like McConnell and Ryan. But I don't think it's very likely, and even that may just be bandage on the sucking chest wound of America's sins. There will still be a Republican Party that bases its electoral appeal on white grievance and Fox News gaslighting, and they'll still be mostly in charge. And they'll be eager to tell us, "Gosh, we're sure glad to be rid of those bad people! They definitely weren't really ours! Now look over there while we drop a few million more black people off the voter rolls and throw 20 million people off their health care to cut taxes for the rich!" Nor can we leave out Breitbart and those ilks: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/magazine/breitbart-alt-right-steve-bannon.html? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: It's past time to stop minimizing this as a dead fantasy. Charlottesville was inconceivable two years ago. They are gaining power and influence. How powerful should we let them get? Maybe this time we shouldn't wait until they've taken over the government of a major country and killed a few million undesirables. If you look at the rise of the far right in Europe ( which is far and a way a bigger problem than you think you have in the US) then it's worth actually considering the factors which lead them coming about instead of going straight for the drone bomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: How many innocent people would you be okay with American Nazis killing and terrorizing before you deign to approve of violence? You're right. One is too many. So again, what's the plan? You have to understand that I want to get out in front of this. Once this selective cleansing exercise is finished, I don't want you guys looking at me sideways, labeling me a mambsy-pansy fence sitter or even worse a nazi collaborator/apologist/sympathizer. I want in on the ground floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: You're right. One is too many. So again, what's the plan? You have to understand that I want to get out in front of this. Once this selective cleansing exercise is finished, I don't want you guys looking at me sideways, labeling me a mambsy-pansy fence sitter or even worse a nazi collaborator/apologist/sympathizer. I want in on the ground floor. I guess you'll just have to trust in our benevolence. Gosh, maybe you're coming to understand the minority experience in America after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Just now, DanteGabriel said: I guess you'll just have to trust in our benevolence. Gosh, maybe you're coming to understand the minority experience in America after all. Oh no, that's not good enough, I'm afraid. I'm on the bandwagon, fellas. Who do we go after next? Those heartless fucks who voted for ACA repeal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Oh no, that's not good enough, I'm afraid. I'm on the bandwagon, fellas. Who do we go after next? Those heartless fucks who voted for ACA repeal? Have I advocated for anything remotely like this? I'm pretty sure I've only considered the possibility of justification for violent resistance against Nazis. I am surprised by how quickly you resorted to the slippery slope argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 21 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Sure, I'm all for self-defense. If they made any attempt to militarize, vape them. I'm all for it. I'm curious at to how you guys propose we go about this? House to house executions? We gonna spare the women and children? We gonna round 'em into camps? How are we going to wage this war fellas? Attempt to militarize? Seriously? These nazis are walking through the streets heiling Trump as their leader and Trump has repeatedly failed to firmly and completely disavow them. He calls them 'fine people'. He surrounds himself with other white supremacists and appoints them to the powerful offices. We'd all like to pretend that Trump is just cosplaying, but he's actually the POTUS. He's in charge of the most powerful military in the world, has his finger on nuclear weapons, has ramped up ICE and border patrol and pushed for increased detention among immigrants regardless of status, has ordered police forces to be more aggressive towards citizens, has encouraged his followers to attack non-violent protesters, has likened the Heather Heyers of the country to nazis. On top of this, the nazis marched openly and armed in a city. I think we've already seen a pretty good start at the attempt to militarize. Meanwhile, you're still stuck at the idea that some of us maybe don't want armed nazis marching in the street while their Dear Leader occupies the highest office in the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Okay, let's go another way. Let's say a coworker said offhandedly that he wanted to kill every immigrant he saw. Heck, let's not even say that - let's say that they threatened to kill someone at work. Or maybe you heard about how they beat their mom up because she wouldn't let him play videogames. The "right" response is to call the authorities, right? What if they didn't do anything? What would you do? Would you protest outside their house? Would you write to the news or on Facebook? Or would you personally intercede? Would you keep watch and if necessary, stop them with force? Because that is what is being talked about. We have ample evidence that there are a large number of people now who wish to and will cause harm to others. Protesting has not stopped them. The police have not. The government took away their funding to stop them and considers them less radical than juggalos. If we are not the ones who will stop them, who will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: Have I advocated for anything remotely like this? I'm pretty sure I've only considered the possibility of justification for violent resistance against Nazis. I am surprised by how quickly you resorted to the slippery slope argument. No, you haven't. Others here have (primarily Sword of Doom) and then others have more or less supported his ideas. I didn't go slippery slope here first. You did that. 46 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: How many innocent people would you be okay with American Nazis killing and terrorizing before you deign to approve of violence? 51 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: It's past time to stop minimizing this as a dead fantasy. Charlottesville was inconceivable two years ago. They are gaining power and influence. How powerful should we let them get? Maybe this time we shouldn't wait until they've taken over the government of a major country and killed a few million undesirables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Fucking Christ, if you don't think Nazis are a growing threat I don't know what to say. It's not a slippery slope to observe that American Nazis have killed someone, are terrorizing many others, and have powerful allies in law enforcement and government. If that is somehow comparable to the "let's kill the anti-ACA voters next" you trotted out, then I don't have anything more to say to you. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 16 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: I think we've already seen a pretty good start at the attempt to militarize. Meanwhile, you're still stuck at the idea that some of us maybe don't want armed nazis marching in the street while their Dear Leader occupies the highest office in the land. I don't want armed nazis marching in the streets either, the sticking point here is whether or not violent retribution is appropriate or helpful in fighting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 1 hour ago, larrytheimp said: We've had factions in this government and in this country advocating violence every day. Allowing a Nazi parade is violence. Most times a cop pulls the trigger it's violence. Voting to eliminate the ACA is violence. Violence is already a viable solution for millions of people, especially white people, and it disproportionately affects women and people of color. There's the larry post. That's where I drew the ACA thing from. So I guess you can just turn violence on and off like a faucet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said: Thanks. Yet, Citizen's United was free speech issue. I still don't get that one. It's poorly reasoned. It suggests that the restrictions on spending of corporations in elections is an inhibition upon the free speech rights of the shareholders of that corporation. It ignores the fact that the corporation itself is a "person" under the law with only the ability to act that it is given by statute and if the shareholders are the real actors for the corporation (as they would have to be to have their individual free speech rights affected by a regulation upon a corporation) the corporation is a falsehood that can be ignored by the Courts if the Shareholders are sued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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