u.s. politics: faygo to the polls

[GAROVORKIN]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

In all honestly, before my son got cancer I wasn't super thrilled with the ACA either, and was willing to take a slight hit in my benefits in exchange for helping others a little bit. But after cancer? After knowing he would have been kicked off coverage and we would have half a million dollars in medical debt? Knowing that he'd never be able to get insurance in his life? Yeah, bit difficult to say that it's such a bad deal. 

 

Im sorry , I didn't know 

[Kalbear]

Just now, GAROVORKIN said:

May I give you some advice?  If you going to be critical of someone and their opinions refrain from statement of"  you don't care" or you must not care "  im  not responsible for these 50 million  so do lay that guilt trip crap on me, I no neither respect not use for anyone that does that. 

I don't see why being critical of someone doesn't mean saying that they don't care. It's an obvious statement of fact in this case. If that makes you upset, chances are good it does so because it is entirely accurate. Now, you might care more about things like 'free market' or 'less government' or 'less taxes', but it certainly means also that health insurance for 1/6th of the population just isn't that big a deal to you. Own that! You know it's true anyway - say why it's less important and, say, why being allowed to buy bad insurance or no insurance is a better choice than being insured. 

Just now, GAROVORKIN said:

The problem I have is I would like to be able to make my own decisions about Healthcare and how much with getting stuffed down my throat by government.   

Great - you recognize that not being able to have any choice at all in the matter is what 50 million US citizens faced prior to the ACA, where it was literally impossible for them to get insurance that covered their conditions or would be affordable for them in any way? How, precisely, does not being able to make a decision about it give someone freedom?

 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Im sorry , I didn't know 

Would it made a difference if you did? 

If so, why? How does knowing about my kid having cancer change your mind that insurance is now a good thing?

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 You used not attacking Britain after defeating Germany as an example as to how we can turn violence on and off like a faucet. Since we found out how profitable war is, we haven't really managed to turn that faucet off, have we? I'm not speaking to the lack of nobility of those two wars. We are a country that profits off of war. We sell arms to unscrupulous allies, We've corporatized war. 

 We like violence too much to turn it off. 

But that's a very different statement entirely. If you're afraid that citizens promoting use of violence against domestic nazis is going to lead to the US becoming a military-industrial complex...yeah, sorry, not following that logic at all. 

[GAROVORKIN]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't see why being critical of someone doesn't mean saying that they don't care. It's an obvious statement of fact in this case. If that makes you upset, chances are good it does so because it is entirely accurate. Now, you might care more about things like 'free market' or 'less government' or 'less taxes', but it certainly means also that health insurance for 1/6th of the population just isn't that big a deal to you. Own that! You know it's true anyway - say why it's less important and, say, why being allowed to buy bad insurance or no insurance is a better choice than being insured. 

Great - you recognize that not being able to have any choice at all in the matter is what 50 million US citizens faced prior to the ACA, where it was literally impossible for them to get insurance that covered their conditions or would be affordable for them in any way? How, precisely, does not being able to make a decision about it give someone freedom?

 

Just skip it Kalbear. 

 

I didn't know your situation. It doesn't really excuse my prior  comments. 

 

[GAROVORKIN]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Would it made a difference if you did? 

If so, why? How does knowing about my kid having cancer change your mind that insurance is now a good thing?

 

It means I have nothing useful to say on this topic .

[LongRider]

8 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

The problem I have is I would like to be able to make my own decisions about Healthcare and how much with getting stuffed down my throat by government.   

Have you ever had to buy your own healthcare?  because really, it sounds to me like you don't have any experience with that.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/20/2017 at 4:14 PM, GAROVORKIN said:

 The problem I have is I would like to be able to make my own decisions about Healthcare and how much with getting stuffed down my throat by government.   

Except I doubt you have little problem of taking advantage of that government tax subsidy if you have employer sponsored care. And when you get old, unless you retire very well off, I doubt you'll complain about Medicare.

There are strong reasons to believe the libertarian thing doesn't work in healthcare markets. See generally Kenneth Arrow.

[GAROVORKIN]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Have you ever had to buy your own healthcare?  because really, it sounds to me like you don't have any experience with that.

I had healthcare before that I was satisfied. But couldn't keep it.

[Kalbear]

Just now, GAROVORKIN said:

Just skip it Kalbear. 

I didn't know your situation. It doesn't really excuse my prior  comments. 

Oh, sorry, NOW you care? 

No, I'm afraid I'm not going to skip it. You not being aware of people like me in my situation doesn't give you a pass for being uncaring before. It makes my prior calling you out even more likely to be true. You didn't give two fucks about other people's situation until it became something personal and in your face. If I hadn't said 'my' kid and instead said that many kids with cancer now aren't going to be in debt and will be able to afford coverage, it wouldn't have affected you like this at all.

Be happy that you haven't had to worry about the good ramifications of the ACA yet. And pray every night you and your loved ones never do. 

 

[GAROVORKIN]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Except I doubt you have little problem of taking advantage of that government tax subsidy if you have employer sponsored care. And when you get old, unless you retire very well off, I doubt you'll complain about Medicare.

There are strong reasons to believe the libertarian thing doesn't work in healthcare markets. See generally Kenneth Arrow.

Honestly , I don't have a solution to healthcare . 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But that's a very different statement entirely. If you're afraid that citizens promoting use of violence against domestic nazis is going to lead to the US becoming a military-industrial complex...yeah, sorry, not following that logic at all. 

You turned it in that direction with your comment.

I'm simply saying it's not an easy thing to turn violence off and on. Look at how violent and gun happy our society is. Once you open that valve, I don't believe it's going to be as easy as you seem to think it is to close it. 

[GAROVORKIN]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Oh, sorry, NOW you care? 

No, I'm afraid I'm not going to skip it. You not being aware of people like me in my situation doesn't give you a pass for being uncaring before. It makes my prior calling you out even more likely to be true. You didn't give two fucks about other people's situation until it became something personal and in your face. If I hadn't said 'my' kid and instead said that many kids with cancer now aren't going to be in debt and will be able to afford coverage, it wouldn't have affected you like this at all.

Be happy that you haven't had to worry about the good ramifications of the ACA yet. And pray every night you and your loved ones never do. 

 

 

Are we done here? 

I said I was sorry what you want me to throw myself on a sword ? 

 

 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

You turned it in that direction with your comment.

I'm simply saying it's not an easy thing to turn violence off and on. Look at how violent and gun happy our society is. Once you open that valve, I don't believe it's going to be as easy as you seem to think it is to close it. 

The valve is already turned on. That is entirely my point. I'm suggesting that perhaps it's okay for both sides to use the hose, instead of one side. 

But the time is long past when the valve was closed. 

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

47 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

There are several things about he ACA saga that really irked me 

1. You can Keep you doctor

2. You can keep you health plan 

3. It was also supposed to reduce costs      

4 . Lets pass this bill to see whats in it.

 

What really uproariously funny   in all this  is  I don't recall  asking for ACA in the first place. 

 

Something has to be done about the US healthcare system though. It is actually really fascinating how you can spend such incredible amounts on it, about twice as much per person as in other modern countries, and still not really end up any better off. It appears like you flush a good 6 - 7 % of the country's GDP down the drain every year, which is an insane amount of money. To put that into perspective, the entire US military budget constitutes 3,3% of GDP, Bernie Sanders tuition-free college plan was about 0,5% (if I remember correctly), and NASA's budget is about 0,1% of GDP... 

 

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

I had healthcare before that I was satisfied. But couldn't keep it.

Job loss has created that situation for me.  If I had an ACA policy my healthcare wouldn't have gone away.  Think about that for awhile.

2 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Honestly , I don't have a solution to healthcare . 

Plenty of kneejerk bullshit tho.

1 minute ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 

Are we done here? 

I said I was sorry what you want me to throw myself on a sword ? 

 

 

Only if you have healthcare. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, GAROVORKIN said:

Are we done here? 

I said I was sorry what you want me to throw myself on a sword ? 

I told you what I wanted you to do. Own it. 

Say that you didn't care that much. Say other things are more important to you than my son's cancer care. Say why those things are more important, and make a case for it. If you can't make a case for it - if it's just a pithy comment that doesn't mean anything, and you don't really know what you're talking about - own that too and get educated. 

I don't care about your apology one bit. I care about making things better. Either state why not having healthcare coverage for 50 million people is better or change your view.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Only if you have healthcare. 

That was a pretty good line

[GAROVORKIN]

1 minute ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Something really has to be done about the US healthcare system though. It is fascinating how you can spend such incredible amounts of money at it, about twice as much per person as in other modern countries, and still not really end up any better off. It appears like you flush a good 6 - 7 % of the country's GDP down the drain every year via inefficiencies in this system, which is an insane amount of money. The entire US military budget constitutes 3,3% of GDP, Bernie Sanders tuition-free college plan was about 0,5% (if I remember correctly), and NASA's budget is about 0,1% of GDP... 

 

Insurers are bailing out of the exchanges, thats. huge problem right there.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/20/2017 at 4:26 PM, GAROVORKIN said:

Honestly , I don't have a solution to healthcare . 

Well it depends what your priorities are. If it’s

1. Achieving universal coverage (and for me this is a moral and ethical imperative)

2. Getting our health care cost down

3. While keeping a high quality health care system.

There are good reasons to think that ultimately single payer is a good way to go.

I consider the ACA the second best solution, not necessarily the best solution.

Anyway, different countries have come up with different solutions. And it would seem they achieve universal coverage, while having lower cost, and maintain a high level of care. The American health care system has been a mess for awhile. And it badly needed fixing.