Whatever happened to Valyrian masonry?

[The Mountain That Flies]

One of the less discussed magical traits of Old Valyria was the ability of some sorcerers to work stone like clay. As a result they were able to create incredibly nuanced pieces of architecture, far different from anything else in the world.

But by the time of Aegon's Conquest there don't seem to be any more of these magical builders. We never hear of any being used to make King's Landing or the Red Keep, which is particularly noteworthy since Aegon wanted that city to be a personal stamp on Westeros. We know that these magical masons were involved in constructing Dragonstone, but I don't recall if the full castle was built ahead of the Targayens moving there or as a result of their move.

A lack of this kind of magic could be explained away by all magic in the world having diminished after the last dragons died, but Aegon's life and works was well before that occurred. So was Dragonstone simply built way earlier and no masons left Valyria with the Targs? Very curious for any more information or ideas anyone may have.

[Kytheros]

Dragonstone was an outpost of Valyria long before the Targaryens moved in.

The Targaryens traded/sold most or all of their assets in Valyria to get Dragonstone for their own.

It's possible, even probable, that the Valyrian stoneworking required lore/secrets that was not available to the Targaryens on Dragonstone. Or, the process involved something else not available or practical to obtain. IE, if it involved blood sacrifice, or pulling magma/lava out of a volcano as a "seed".

[Graydon Hicks]

well, it could be that the stoneworking knowledge was privy to a select group in valyria, maybe something like a guild, but none of those who knew the knowledge accompanied the targs across the narrow sea when they migrated to dragonstone.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

Several noble houses of Westeros in fact own a genuine Valyrian brick which has been passed down from generation to generation for centuries.

[TMIFairy]

23 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

One of the less discussed magical traits of Old Valyria was the ability of some sorcerers to work stone like clay.

I thought that this thread was about the guys with fancy secret handshakes

[DominusNovus]

Given how little we know about how the Valyrians worked stone, its hard to say why.  Ultimately, the knowledge and/or resources were somehow lost between the Doom and the Conquest.  Perhaps those that knew how to do the magic all died, perhaps it required more resources than the Targaryens had (like innumerable slaves for blood sacrifices), perhaps it required specially trained dragons, or any combination of these reasons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Given how little we know about how the Valyrians worked stone, its hard to say why.  Ultimately, the knowledge and/or resources were somehow lost between the Doom and the Conquest.  Perhaps those that knew how to do the magic all died, perhaps it required more resources than the Targaryens had (like innumerable slaves for blood sacrifices), perhaps it required specially trained dragons, or any combination of these reasons.

http://imgur.com/iZcUNxH

[Falcon2909]

Targs didn't know how to teach their dragons to melt and shape stone and they didn't know the spells to do that

[White Ravens]

Dragonstone was established and built as a Valyrian outpost two hundred years before the Doom.  Most of the knowledge and lore of Valyria died that day. The knowledge needed to shape stone like clay disappeared along with magic and the Valyrian Freehold shortly after the Targaryans fled there to live on Dragonstone and over one hundred years before Aegon decided to conquer Westeros. 

[Bobity.]

Central to my theory is that the Valyrians did not have the skill to artistically shape fused stone, I attribute the craft to the Great Empire of the Dawn (GEOTD). I further theorize that Valyria was a colony of the GEOTD and had lost the ability to artistically shape fused stone with the end of the GEOTD via the Long Night.

 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, Bobity. said:

Central to my theory is that the Valyrians did not have the skill to artistically shape fused stone, I attribute the craft to the Great Empire of the Dawn (GEOTD). I further theorize that Valyria was a colony of the GEOTD and had lost the ability to artistically shape fused stone with the end of the GEOTD via the Long Night.

 

 

 

Dragonstone would beg to differ

[Bobity.]

19 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Dragonstone would beg to differ

While I admit it's crackpot and I am alone in this view, I believe that the Valyrians lied and did not build Dragonstone.  I believe it's of GEOTD construction.  I don't make this claim without research.

Reasons include:

1. The abandonment of Dragonstone by Valyrian dragonlords shortly after its supposed construction, with the exception of the Targs, who were called cowards for moving there following the prophetic dreams.  Why put the effort to build a massively intricate fused stone castle with every square foot artistically shaped to resemble dragons, which in my opinion resembles a temple to dragons......and then berate a dragonlord for residing there?
2. A complete absence of Valyrian Sphinx architecture within the lengthy descriptions of Dragonstone, even though the Valyrian Sphinx was THE Valyrian totem symbol of choice.
3. Repeated reference by POV's of Dragonstone being "ancient", if Dragonstone was constructed by the Valyrians, it would be of newer construction of almost every castle in Westeros, including the Twins.  Davos described the iron bars in the Dragonstone cells as being "ancient", probably the only physical material in Dragonstone that could be reliably dated, as fused stone does not erode.
4. An apparent connection between volcanoes and dragons, which I theorize that volcanoes are a necessary habitat condition for the laying of dragon eggs.  With only a handful of volcanic regions in ASOIAF, they would have been of particular interest to any historical dragonlord society, which I believe the GEOTD were.

The Valyrians brutally built their empire by repeatedly subjugating and enslaving their neighbours.  I don't think the Valyrians would have hesitated at revisionist history, and not having built Dragonstone would not have worked with their manifest destiny narrative.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/20/2017 at 11:13 AM, The Mountain That Flies said:

One of the less discussed magical traits of Old Valyria was the ability of some sorcerers to work stone like clay. As a result they were able to create incredibly nuanced pieces of architecture, far different from anything else in the world.

But by the time of Aegon's Conquest there don't seem to be any more of these magical builders. We never hear of any being used to make King's Landing or the Red Keep, which is particularly noteworthy since Aegon wanted that city to be a personal stamp on Westeros. We know that these magical masons were involved in constructing Dragonstone, but I don't recall if the full castle was built ahead of the Targayens moving there or as a result of their move.

A lack of this kind of magic could be explained away by all magic in the world having diminished after the last dragons died, but Aegon's life and works was well before that occurred. So was Dragonstone simply built way earlier and no masons left Valyria with the Targs? Very curious for any more information or ideas anyone may have.

The people who were skilled at it dies in the doom or afterward. Most of Valyrian magic and skills were lost. The Targs were a noble family, and thusly did not occupy themselves with construction and engineering or magic 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:14 AM, TMIFairy said:

I thought that this thread was about the guys with fancy secret handshakes

I laughed. 

[Aegon1FanBoy]

Died in the doom like all the sorcerer princes and magicians. It was considered weak for Valyrians to Leave (abandon) the motherland so maybe anyone who worked for the Targs that knew it stayed. Or Aenar just never wanted to continue it fearing anything related to the motherland may endanger him, but who knows alot of Targs seem to still do Valyrian practises. Even Visenya held a Valyrian wedding for Maegor

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 hours ago, Bobity. said:

While I admit it's crackpot and I am alone in this view, I believe that the Valyrians lied and did not build Dragonstone.  I believe it's of GEOTD construction.  I don't make this claim without research.

Reasons include:

1. The abandonment of Dragonstone by Valyrian dragonlords shortly after its supposed construction, with the exception of the Targs, who were called cowards for moving there following the prophetic dreams.  Why put the effort to build a massively intricate fused stone castle with every square foot artistically shaped to resemble dragons, which in my opinion resembles a temple to dragons......and then berate a dragonlord for residing there?
2. A complete absence of Valyrian Sphinx architecture within the lengthy descriptions of Dragonstone, even though the Valyrian Sphinx was THE Valyrian totem symbol of choice.
3. Repeated reference by POV's of Dragonstone being "ancient", if Dragonstone was constructed by the Valyrians, it would be of newer construction of almost every castle in Westeros, including the Twins.  Davos described the iron bars in the Dragonstone cells as being "ancient", probably the only physical material in Dragonstone that could be reliably dated, as fused stone does not erode.
4. An apparent connection between volcanoes and dragons, which I theorize that volcanoes are a necessary habitat condition for the laying of dragon eggs.  With only a handful of volcanic regions in ASOIAF, they would have been of particular interest to any historical dragonlord society, which I believe the GEOTD were.

The Valyrians brutally built their empire by repeatedly subjugating and enslaving their neighbours.  I don't think the Valyrians would have hesitated at revisionist history, and not having built Dragonstone would not have worked with their manifest destiny narrative.

 

1. It wasn't abandoned. It was the equivalent of the wall for them. There were still Valyrians on DS when the Targs came

2. It's not the Valyrian totem of choice. We don't know that. We literally see them in two places in the book, three if you count the King we never actually saw and assumed was dragged to Vaes Dothrak.

3. DS is 600+ years old.

4. I actually don't disagree except for the last half sentence

[Jaak]

There would have been problems with Valyrians revising their history.

Valyrian history is lost.

Which is itself mightily odd. Volantis the Eldest Daughter was big, rich and noble before Doom. Yes, there were no dragons resident in Volantis - they only flew there when Volantis called for aid. Volantis did have Black Walls. But the rich nobles of Volantis could easily have afforded to buy quite some books from Valyria, including history books. So what do libraries of Volantis have to say about Valyrian history?

When Aenar came to Dragonstone with 5 dragons, how many books did he have with him? And are these manuscripts now extant?

But until Aegon´s Conquest, Westeros was held by Andals.

If there had been a castle on Dragonstone before Valyrians came, someone would have held Dragonstone, as was the case with all other islands around Westeros. Starks took Skagos and contested Sisters. Arryns got Sisters, Paps, some more. Durrandons had Tarth and Greenstone. Who held Dragonstone?

Someone, whether a septon or a maester at Duskendale or Storm´s End, would have taken notice and written down a mention of a weird castle which could not have been built by ancestor of local lord. And the maesters at Oldtown would have listed Dragonstone as another weird old building in Westeros, alongside Oldtown.

How could Valyrians have gone about uprooting such references?

[DominusNovus]

On 8/24/2017 at 4:06 PM, Bobity. said:

While I admit it's crackpot and I am alone in this view, I believe that the Valyrians lied and did not build Dragonstone.  I believe it's of GEOTD construction.  I don't make this claim without research.

Reasons include:

1. The abandonment of Dragonstone by Valyrian dragonlords shortly after its supposed construction, with the exception of the Targs, who were called cowards for moving there following the prophetic dreams.  Why put the effort to build a massively intricate fused stone castle with every square foot artistically shaped to resemble dragons, which in my opinion resembles a temple to dragons......and then berate a dragonlord for residing there?
2. A complete absence of Valyrian Sphinx architecture within the lengthy descriptions of Dragonstone, even though the Valyrian Sphinx was THE Valyrian totem symbol of choice.
3. Repeated reference by POV's of Dragonstone being "ancient", if Dragonstone was constructed by the Valyrians, it would be of newer construction of almost every castle in Westeros, including the Twins.  Davos described the iron bars in the Dragonstone cells as being "ancient", probably the only physical material in Dragonstone that could be reliably dated, as fused stone does not erode.
4. An apparent connection between volcanoes and dragons, which I theorize that volcanoes are a necessary habitat condition for the laying of dragon eggs.  With only a handful of volcanic regions in ASOIAF, they would have been of particular interest to any historical dragonlord society, which I believe the GEOTD were.

The Valyrians brutally built their empire by repeatedly subjugating and enslaving their neighbours.  I don't think the Valyrians would have hesitated at revisionist history, and not having built Dragonstone would not have worked with their manifest destiny narrative.

 

 

1. Its my understanding that the Valyrians may have turned their back on expansion in to Westeros, so Dragonstone's relative decline prior to the Valyrians would make sense in that context.

3. Dragonstone is supposed to have been built 2 centuries prior to the Doom, which is 1 century prior to the Conquest, which is 3 centuries prior to the present.  So, 600 years ago, just as old as the Frey's lordship over the Crossing, which, predates the bridge over the crossing by 3 generations, and the actual Twin castles were timber at that time, so Dragonstone, according to the accepted chronology, still predates the current Twins.

Anyway, I don't think Dragonstone was built by the Golden Empire.  Its not in their general sphere of influence, which seems to have been the west coast of Westeros, for whatever reason (possibly because Dorn wasn't broken yet).

[PrinceHenryris]

On August 21, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Falcon2909 said:

Targs didn't know how to teach their dragons to melt and shape stone and they didn't know the spells to do that

My thinking is somewhere along this line, but I wonder if dragon breeding also didn't play a part?

We have heard mention that the Targaryean dragons were "bred for war", maybe some of the other Valyrian Dragonlords bred their dragons for construction and commerce?

I realize that sounds odd, but consider horses the aSoIaF world(and with some differences our world).  There are draft horses, war horses, riding horses, plow horses, sand steeds, some that are a combination and others.  Mayhaps  there were construction dragons and trading dragons and the Targaryeans didn't have any of those when they fled to Dragonstone?

If you don't have the right dragons, you probably don't have the right spells either.

[Graydon Hicks]

sorry, im having a flash back to dragon booster right now. but yeah, that makes a kind of sense. maybe there was a couple of families in the freehold that bred their dragons to haul heavy loads and such. maybe they had stunted wings but were massively muscled.