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Arya/Waif stuff?  No way.

How would the waif know about Sansa being in her parents room?

How would the waif know about Arya's target practice with Ned watching?

Details seem too personal for an impostor.

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On 8/23/2017 at 11:21 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Actually it wasn't plausible at all but we all glossed over it because it wasn't obvious.  The fact he is meant to have landed at Eastwatch and no one at Eastwatch decided to alert Castle Black via a Raven or a messenger?  The fact that he must gone beyond the Wall at Eastwatch and marched an entire army North of the Wall to Castle Black (which would have taken days) and that canny leader Mance didn't know they were coming?

GRRM himself has admitted some of the travel times in the books don't make logical sense (and also said he didn't care as nitpicking over realistic journey times doesn't impact the story).

As with most things in life, people are usually willing to make allowances when it suits them rather than be consistent across the board and condemn friend and foe alike for the same actions.  We are full of double standards.....

Well I guess that's where Martin's POV style comes in handy because as it's written from Jon's POV we, the reader, aren't privy to what happens at Eastwatch therefore there's nothing to gloss over, from Jon's POV it is entirely plausible for it to be a total surprise, and it is, and it was.

IIRC the quote from 'GRRM himself' was more to do with people who discount certain massive theories ('R+L=J') and the like by saying it wouldn't be possible because of travelling distances, which is a bit different and doesn't apply here.

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On 8/21/2017 at 2:07 AM, Gaz0680 said:

There is something very different about Arya's character this season and in Maisie's acting. I cant pinpoint the reason for it.

Arya had always been a strong minded individual who wears her heart on her sleeve. She always spoke her mind directly when something was bothering her and she was very expressive. Maisies acting was too. She was brilliant.

In season 7, Arya is almost a different person and Maisie is definitely playing her more controlled and emotionless, like she has lost touch with most of her humanity.

 Even in the conversations with Sansa this season, Maisie's delivery has been more in line with the Waif than that of Season 1-6 Arya. I also believe this is by design and not just an acting choice from Maisie. 

I see only 3 reasons for this:

1. The writers are taking Arya down an even darker path towards full blown psychopath and the change in delivery of the character is to illustrate that descent.

2. Arya is dead and the Waif is wearing her face. I would absolutely loathe for this to be true but I am genuinely fearful the show may go that way.

3. Arya truly did become No One at end of season 6 and is just playing the part of the old Arya Stark, therefore the true emotion of the real Arya isnt there.

Umm...I dare say that the writers won't have such a complex payoff for that storyline. Odds are that all three characters, Sansa, Arya and Petyr are playing the 'game of thrones' in the proper. Sansa is trying to best Petyr while infantilizing the new Arya whom she doesn't know or understand at all. Her loyalties are still to Stark and Winterfell.

Arya is too much the Nymeria lone-wolf type. She has learnt in Braavos to tell a lie...remember this was a part of her training. So she knows what Petyr is doing  and is trying to play his conniving butt, without letting Sansa in on it, because, SHE doesnt get Sansa as well!

Finally, Petyr's point of view as the expert player of the game of thrones is what the show runners reveal to us. But Petyr doesn't understand that this is not that old game anymore. Not only has Sansa learnt the lessons he painfully taught her in these preceding years and not only can she best him, the skill-set that Arya and Bran have are beyond his calculations and schemes.

I think Lord Baelish will meet his end at the end of this season.

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On 8/21/2017 at 2:07 AM, Gaz0680 said:

There is something very different about Arya's character this season and in Maisie's acting. I cant pinpoint the reason for it.

Arya had always been a strong minded individual who wears her heart on her sleeve. She always spoke her mind directly when something was bothering her and she was very expressive. Maisies acting was too. She was brilliant.

In season 7, Arya is almost a different person and Maisie is definitely playing her more controlled and emotionless, like she has lost touch with most of her humanity.

 Even in the conversations with Sansa this season, Maisie's delivery has been more in line with the Waif than that of Season 1-6 Arya. I also believe this is by design and not just an acting choice from Maisie. 

I see only 3 reasons for this:

1. The writers are taking Arya down an even darker path towards full blown psychopath and the change in delivery of the character is to illustrate that descent.

2. Arya is dead and the Waif is wearing her face. I would absolutely loathe for this to be true but I am genuinely fearful the show may go that way.

3. Arya truly did become No One at end of season 6 and is just playing the part of the old Arya Stark, therefore the true emotion of the real Arya isnt there.

There is definitely something different about Arya and frankly I don't like it. D&D seem to want to take Arya Stark out of the character.  I can't tell if it's the writing, directing or Maisie's acting but it just isn't working for me. If they are trying to make her nothing more than a Faceless Man it seems to be failing. While Jaquen H'ghar is cool calm and collected, Arya is just cold. Never was that more clear than in the Arya/Hot Pie scene. This may fit with reason #1, Faceless Men (outside of the House of Black & White) act like hired assassins, vengeance doesn't play into it on their side of things. Meanwhile Arya's wet work at the Twins was nothing but vengeance. Sure she used faces, but the motive and method was pure vengeful psychopath. One thing Arya killing the Freys does make perfectly clear however is that she is most certainly not the Waif. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever the Waif would have bothered with the Freys in any way. 

Edited by Super Mario

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12 hours ago, Super Mario said:

There is definitely something different about Arya and frankly I don't like it. D&D seem to want to take Arya Stark out of the character.  I can't tell if it's the writing, directing or Maisie's acting but it just isn't working for me. If they are trying to make her nothing more than a Faceless Man it seems to be failing. While Jaquen H'ghar is cool calm and collected, Arya is just cold. Never was that more clear than in the Arya/Hot Pie scene. This may fit with reason #1, Faceless Men (outside of the House of Black & White) act like hired assassins, vengeance doesn't play into it on their side of things. Meanwhile Arya's wet work at the Twins was nothing but vengeance. Sure she used faces, but the motive and method was pure vengeful psychopath. One thing Arya killing the Freys does make perfectly clear however is that she is most certainly not the Waif. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever the Waif would have bothered with the Freys in any way. 

I know I'm being repetitious to the point of spamming, but I believe they have taken her out of character because she is literally out of character, applying her thespian skills to take down LF.

 

Even so, we saw in Crossroads that Arya (true Arya) has become something that is darker and more detached than what she was when she handed the coin to the ship's captain......An understandable change after HoB&W.

Edited by Illiterati

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14 hours ago, duncanthemedium said:

Finally, Petyr's point of view as the expert player of the game of thrones is what the show runners reveal to us. But Petyr doesn't understand that this is not that old game anymore. Not only has Sansa learnt the lessons he painfully taught her in these preceding years and not only can she best him, the skill-set that Arya and Bran have are beyond his calculations and schemes.

I think Lord Baelish will meet his end at the end of this season.

This is the part of your post where we come to full agreement.  I think you are underestimating the girls, just as LF is.

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I don't really post on here and I haven't for years. But I do read the boards. 
I was talking to a friend earlier about Thrones and I was discussing how I saw the show and something popped in my head about how the show characters are like character in Greek mythology with the gods having their 'chess pieces' in each character. Now I don't know if this theory or idea has been mentioned before. I googled it afterwards and thought someone else must've come up with this before me. As so many on here know more about Thrones than I do. So take the gods and their chess pieces and it's why I think Jon survives, more than he should, as the Lord of Light favours him and does everything he can to help Jon survive, some call it luck. I call it godly intervention, as if you believe in this show then you have to believe in all the Gods also. So Chess piece wise. The Lord of light, his King is Jon, his Queen is Dany. The Old Gods - the King is Bran, the Queen is Sansa. The Many-faced god. King is Jaqen, Queen is Arya. The Great other, the King is the Night's King, Queen is Cersei. 
All the other characters can be other pieces, but it's like all the gods are playing a game of chess or at least Greek Mythology chess of men against each other. Just my opinion on it. Again apologies if this has been posted before. I thought of it myself tonight for the first time. 

Edited by whytehot

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On 8/20/2017 at 8:23 PM, Christi84 said:

Definitely think Sansa and Arya are just playing it up for Littlefinger

How? Some conversations take place where they can reasonably expect to be overheard. Others happen in private. Do they assume Littlefinger is electronically surveilling them? Even if you say *maybe* someone is always listening even when it's not apparent, Arya, at least, was playacting in silence, when no one could see her. Why?

Why even bother with the charade at all? They can have Littlefinger killed for selling Sansa to the Boltons (in exchange for nothing) or killing their aunt whenever they want. What, are they trying to draw out potential co-conspirators? Is this one giant, elaborate test of his true loyalties? Or is the show just wasting time so they can kill him in the finale. 

Edited by darmody

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6 minutes ago, darmody said:

How? Some conversations take place where they can reasonably expect to be overheard. Others happen in private. Do they assume Littlefinger is electronically surveilling them? Even if you say *maybe* someone is always listening even when it's not apparent, Arya, at least, was playacting in silence, when no one could see her. Why?

Why even bother with the charade at all? They can have Littlefinger killed for selling Sansa to the Boltons (in exchange for nothing) or killing their aunt whenever they want. What, are they trying to draw out potential co-conspirators? Is this one giant, elaborate test of his true loyalties? Or is the show just wasting time so they can kill him in the finale. 

What she was doing in silence in that conversation was counter to the words she was speaking.

And, wasting time so they can kill him in the finale.  His death has to be poetic justice because of the weght of his character in teh beginning of the story.  There is no more poetic justice than two girls (he's a pimp), one of them his perennial pigeon, bests him at his own game.

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19 hours ago, duncanthemedium said:

Finally, Petyr's point of view as the expert player of the game of thrones is what the show runners reveal to us. But Petyr doesn't understand that this is not that old game anymore. Not only has Sansa learnt the lessons he painfully taught her in these preceding years and not only can she best him, the skill-set that Arya and Bran have are beyond his calculations and schemes.

 

Couldn't agree more with Bran. Baelish is out of his element with the 3 Eyed Raven powers. When Bran quoted the 'chaos is a ladder' line, i'm pretty sure Littlefinger pooped a little.

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57 minutes ago, darmody said:

How? Some conversations take place where they can reasonably expect to be overheard. Others happen in private. Do they assume Littlefinger is electronically surveilling them? Even if you say *maybe* someone is always listening even when it's not apparent, Arya, at least, was playacting in silence, when no one could see her. Why?

Why even bother with the charade at all? They can have Littlefinger killed for selling Sansa to the Boltons (in exchange for nothing) or killing their aunt whenever they want. What, are they trying to draw out potential co-conspirators? Is this one giant, elaborate test of his true loyalties? Or is the show just wasting time so they can kill him in the finale. 

Agreed. And if the girls are just playacting for Petyr, why in the world would Arya out herself as a Faceless Man? Surely any act they might be staging could survive without Arya laying her 3 aces on the table. Playacting implies they are giving Petyr the info they want him to have, yet there is zero advantage to Petyr knowing just how powerful Arya truly is.

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On 23/08/2017 at 11:21 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Actually it wasn't plausible at all but we all glossed over it because it wasn't obvious.  The fact he is meant to have landed at Eastwatch and no one at Eastwatch decided to alert Castle Black via a Raven or a messenger?  The fact that he must gone beyond the Wall at Eastwatch and marched an entire army North of the Wall to Castle Black (which would have taken days) and that canny leader Mance didn't know they were coming?

GRRM himself has admitted some of the travel times in the books don't make logical sense (and also said he didn't care as nitpicking over realistic journey times doesn't impact the story).

As with most things in life, people are usually willing to make allowances when it suits them rather than be consistent across the board and condemn friend and foe alike for the same actions.  We are full of double standards.....

Wasn't it? Stannis' success relies on him being able to take Nance's vastly superior numbers by surprise. Men at Castle Black are at no position to help him, bring barely able to defend themselves. He has nothing to gain from alerting CB and everything to lose should the raven get intercepted. 

Even if you think raven should have been sent it requires no stretch of imagination to imagine it got killed by an eagle or not received by the people too busy participating in a battle to notice a message.

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17 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Agreed. And if the girls are just playacting for Petyr, why in the world would Arya out herself as a Faceless Man? Surely any act they might be staging could survive without Arya laying her 3 aces on the table. Playacting implies they are giving Petyr the info they want him to have, yet there is zero advantage to Petyr knowing just how powerful Arya truly is.

I posted this elsewhere.....

If LF thinks that Arya has a keen mistrust of Sansa to support Jon, and

LF understands that Arya has the wherewithal to take Sansa's likeness after killing her, giving her the avenue both to kill Sansa without repercussion and the power to run WF the way she thinks it should be run in support of Jon, and

LF sees that Brienne has been sent away so that Arya could attack Sansa without Brienne to defend her, then

In LF's logic, he needs only seduce Arya with the idea of killing her sister for the sake of a better realm.  In this sense, there is an enormous advantage in knowing Arya is faceless, because it gives him the opening to ply his treachery.

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12 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I posted this elsewhere.....

If LF thinks that Arya has a keen mistrust of Sansa to support Jon, and

LF understands that Arya has the wherewithal to take Sansa's likeness after killing her, giving her the avenue both to kill Sansa without repercussion and the power to run WF the way she thinks it should be run in support of Jon, and

LF sees that Brienne has been sent away so that Arya could attack Sansa without Brienne to defend her, then

In LF's logic, he needs only seduce Arya with the idea of killing her sister for the sake of a better realm.  In this sense, there is an enormous advantage in knowing Arya is faceless, because it gives him the opening to ply his treachery.

Agreed that would be an advantage for Littlefinger, which only backs up my original point which I'm not sure I made clear enough... If the girls believe Littlefinger is listening somehow, and they are play acting to lead him on, then they would only speak of the things that they want LF to hear in order to give themselves an advantage. There is no advantage for the Stark girls to LF knowing that Arya is a Faceless Man, With Petyr unaware of Arya's Faceless Man skills, Arya can literally kill him at her leisure with Petyr completely ignorant of his danger until it's too late. No amount of scheming can out weigh that advantage. Therefore, since they openly discussed Arya being a Faceless Man, it would follow that they didn't think LF was listening and thus were not play acting. So by that logic, the scene in the bedroom was exactly what it appeared to be, the two Stark girls confronting one another.

Edited by Super Mario

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21 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Agreed that would be an advantage for Littlefinger, which only backs up my original point which I'm not sure I made clear enough... If the girls believe Littlefinger is listening somehow, and they are play acting to lead him on, then they would only speak of the things that they want LF to hear in order to give themselves an advantage. There is no advantage for the Stark girls to LF knowing that Arya is a Faceless Man, With Petyr unaware of Arya's Faceless Man skills, Arya can literally kill him at her leisure with Petyr completely ignorant of his danger until it's too late. No amount of scheming can out weigh that advantage. Therefore, since they openly discussed Arya being a Faceless Man, it would follow that they didn't think LF was listening and thus were not play acting. So by that logic, the scene in the bedroom was exactly what it appeared to be, the two Stark girls confronting one another.

I guess I didn't make myself clear either.  There is a HUGE advantage for the Stark girls in LF knowing Arya is faceless, but not knowing they know he knows.....

It will entice him to come up with his brilliant master plan of seducing Arya to kill Sansa and wear Sansa's face to run the North the way Arya thinks it should be run.  Only problem is, they planted the idea in LF's mind the same way he plants ideas in the minds of others.....therefore, he's dying by the sword by which he has lived.

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5 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I guess I didn't make myself clear either.  There is a HUGE advantage for the Stark girls in LF knowing Arya is faceless, but not knowing they know he knows.....

It will entice him to come up with his brilliant master plan of seducing Arya to kill Sansa and wear Sansa's face to run the North the way Arya thinks it should be run.  Only problem is, they planted the idea in LF's mind the same way he plants ideas in the minds of others.....therefore, he's dying by the sword by which he has lived.

Well at least we understand each other now.. but I disagree. While I see the merit in that plan, I don't think it offsets the advantage of having Arya's Faceless Manliness remain a secret. Secrecy and stealth is the whole beauty of the Faceless Men, it what makes a good one virtually unstoppable.

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Forgive me for writing this, but I just have to get it out. I just can't get over how incredibly stupid (on a multitude of levels) the whole wight hunt/armistice "negotiations" plotlines were. Just to take one point. After Daenerys' crushing victory over the Lannister/Tarly forces close to King's Landing (which ends with the remaining Lannister/Tarly forces actually pledging to fight for her), Cersei is in a desperate military situation - she and Jaime themselves seem to aknowledge as much. This is the moment for Daenerys to deliver the final blow and attack KL. It's the only thing that makes sense - militarily, politically, even from a humanitarian perspective (try to end the war with Cersei now instead of having it drag on and on and on). And it would certainly make sense from the perspective of becoming able to deal more efficiently with the threat from beyond the wall - after delivering the final blow to Cersei, Dany and Jon could focus on that threat without having to worry about being stabbed in the back, as they, entireley precictable, will have to worry about now. But instead of at least TRYING to take KL, those characters who we are supposed to root for instead act in almost the dumbest and most incompetent manner which it is possible to imagine - namely, they apparently cease fighting the Lannisters while Jon and his merry company go on the wight hunt. Now, even if I buy the premise that this hunt makes any sense in itself (it does not), WHY NOT AT LEAST TRY TO TAKE, OR AT LEAST BESIEGE, KINGS'S LANDING WHILE THE HUNT IS CARRIED OUT (as a matter of fact, the whole wight hunt should have taken months to conduct), making Cersei's situation even more desperate. Why give her (without getting anything in return) the time to recuperate and plot a military comeback? Why? Why? Why?

The execution of the whole wight hunt plotline is, of course, as stupid as it gets. It is so stupid on so may levels - the whole idea of it, that it is the King in the North himself which goes on the hunt, Gendry's run, the conveniently placed island, Dany's rescue operation on her Boeing Dragons, the Benjen deux ex machina twist, that they don't wear any hats (I wish I could take D and D out trekking in the mountains on a cold winter day here in Norway, and they would have to be without hats) etc, etc etc.

As a matter of fact, the whole plot is so stupid that it is hard not to assume that D and D has taken note of some of the criticism of earlier seasons, and actually decided to caricature their own show (this is not the case, of course, they probably still take their own story super-seriously or something). So I just have to conclude, as many have done in other threads, that all the main characters are so stupid and incompetent that the Night's King is the only one which it makes any sense to root for at this point.

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I was just rewatching this episode and I was wondering what exactly Littlefinger was insinuating when he mentioned that Brienne was oath-bound to protect BOTH Arya and Sansa. Did he want Sansa to get rid of Brienne so that he could eliminate Arya?

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