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Lady Fevre Dream

[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

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20 hours ago, I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire said:

you know what I keep forgetting about? how f--king stupid it is people keep referring to it as the Battle of the Bastards. 

Yes. I hated that even more than I hate that everyone in show has standardized on "Night King". Next we're going to see show characters refer to previous events by their episode name.

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(Sorry if this has been posted before)

From Vox:

In an effort to highlight the glaring moments of “Beyond the Wall” that just didn’t make any sense, we came up with 27 basic questions that the episode failed — or more accurately, didn’t even try — to answer.

  1. Instead of Jon leading a ranging party north of the Wall to aimlessly search for a wight to capture and deliver to Cersei, why didn’t just Dany scout out the White Walkers from the air, on her dragons?
  2. Alternately, why didn’t Dany escort the party to help them capture the wight?
  3. Why didn’t anyone in Jon’s party appear to bring any food or other supplies, or bother more appropriate winter gear (namely: hats)?
  4. Who truly believes that seeing a wight will actually convince Cersei to join Jon and Daenerys in battling the White Walkers?
  5. Has anyone pointed out to Jon and Dany that Cersei technically has her own wight bodyguard? Like, maybe Jaime could have mentioned as much when he met with Tyrion about this very plan?
  6. Shouldn’t Tyrion, at the very least, know better than to bet so much on appealing to Cersei Lannister’s humanity?
  7. Why didn’t the group bring a raven with them to send a message back to Eastwatch in the event of trouble?
  8. Wasn’t it really, um, convenient to have the ice break just in time to stop the wights? And for Jon and his buddies to end up on a perfectly placed island?
  9. Why didn’t the Night King just use his ice javelins against Jon, Jorah, Tormund, and the rest of the wight hunters while they were stranded on an island in the middle of the lake? Was he playing a longer game to lure Dany out?
  10. Why didn’t the Night King first try to kill the dragon that Dany — and eventually the rescued members of Jon’s party — was riding? Assuming that what he really wanted a zombified dragon, wouldn’t it make more sense to start with the biggest of the three and the easiest one to hit?
  11. Why didn’t Dany or anybody else try to kill the Night King?
  12. Why did Dany bring all three dragons beyond the wall, when she only used one against the Lannister army? Gendry didn’t know how many undead were coming, so he couldn’t have warned her of the massive army.
  13. Jon and Dany have an essentially unlimited supply of dragonglass now, right? Why didn’t they bring dragonglass arrows, to kill White Walkers with from a distance?
  14. How was Gendry able to run all the way to Eastwatch, however far that was, in what appears to be record time?
  15. While we’re at it, how did Gendry even know where to run after fresh snow wiped out Jon and co.’s tracks, especially since Gendry had never even experienced snow before, period?
  16. How the hell did a raven travel the 2,000 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone in less than a day? If it took 12 hours, and the raven never stopped to rest, that’s a 167-mph raven.
  17. And even if it did take more than a day, how did the men not end up like poor Thoros before the hour Daenerys swooped in?
  18. Could Jon really not break away from the fight to get on the dragon with everybody else?
  19. How did Jon survive his plunge into the icy lake water at the hands of the wights, let alone pull himself out while bogged down by soaking wet clothing?
  20. And how did he manage to then ride a horse back to Eastwatch while barely conscious (and also bogged down by soaking wet clothing)?
  21. Why didn’t Benjen show up earlier in the battle against the Night King? The last time he suddenly appeared to help a fellow Stark, he said that the Three-Eyed Raven had sent him; presumably that means Bran sent him to help Jon. But does that mean that Bran didn’t dispatch Benjen until Jon was stranded, dripping wet, and being chased by wights?
  22. Where even was Benjen, before showing up to rescue Jon out of nowhere?
  23. How did thousands of supposedly terrifying and powerful wights not manage to kill anyone except anonymous redshirt wildings?
  24. Where did the Night King acquire giant, industrial-strength chains that he could use for hauling a dead dragon out of a freezing lake?
  25. And if he didn’t just find them somewhere, how did he forge them? We don’t know exactly what the White Walkers’ relationship to fire is; we know they don’t like it, but have shown to have a bit of resistance to it (like when the Night King walked through it to kill the Children of the Forest). We do know the wights are killed by fire. It seems implausible that the White Walkers would have been able to create those giant chains without help from their undead army, but how exactly would they have done it?
  26. Who jumped into the freezing lake to attach the giant chains to the submerged dragon body — the wights that previously wouldn’t enter the water?
  27. And last but definitely not least: Why did no one, out of everyone in this entire all-star war council, realize how dumb the whole “capture a wight” plan was from the start?

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On 8/20/2017 at 11:15 PM, nborders said:

If your rant doesn't start with CHAINS, then you're doing it wrong. 

They seriously had chains to pull the dragon out of the lake. 

EXACTLY!!

 

why not just walk up, look down, and raise his arms??  (ala Hardhome, when everyone rose), and have the dragon crack the ice and rise on its own??!!  would have looked cooler, but probably cost more in CGI to do it.

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I am not a big reader of the series or the books, and the implausibility has sorta screwed the series for me now, but imo this would have made more sense:

1. Jamie and Bron are captured. Rather than kill them Tyrion suggests a prisoner swap for Yara and Ellaria in good faith for a truce because of the WW threat to the north. Daenerys is suspicious of Tyrion's motives but Yara and Ellaria are valuable to her in consolidating her support. This is the Kingslayer who killed her father, Aerys. She is holding all the cards now but this is a good faith arrangement, she is not her father. She finally commits to a dialogue but when turning to have Bron killed, Jamie intercedes saying no deal unless Bron (who saved his life) lives.

Cersei get word but only agrees to a swap for Yara and also adds a demand for proof of the undead threat if there is to be a truce-- not necessarily to get Jamie back (as he finds out later) but to afford her time to buy a mercenary army. Not the best outcome for Daenerys but the exchange is made. Cersei and Daenerys get to observe each other for the first time from a distance.

2. Northern fellowship sets out with ravens to accede to Cersei's demand. They secure a wight but become overwhelmed with the main army coming down on them...the undead army is slowed crossing the ice and allows the group to escape. What follows is a several days and nights of pursuit back to the wall with the group eluding and resting in fits and starts. Early on in the chase a raven is sent to Eastwatch informing them of their dire situation and what is to come. Davos in turn sends a message to Daenerys.

3. Now close to the wall the undead army catches up with the exhasted party near Eastwatch. A fight ensues, Daenerys (who has had time to come north) and her dragons intercede. In the fight, Viserion moves to blast the NK and his generals, only to be felled by a javelin. Daenerys immediately reacts in a heartfelt way, but Jon also similarly reacts which confuses him. In the ensuing chaos the party manages to withdraw back to the wall.

 

Viserion, the "ice dragon" makes short work of the wall defenses, everyone withdraws and the undead are on the march.

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On 8/23/2017 at 0:21 PM, fairwarging said:

Yes, Varma is a good actress for sure, and she could have been a great Ellaria. What a butchered character! I think she is the most detestable character who is sold to us as 'badass.' I'm sure this has been discussed to death but-her lover said 'we don't hurt little girls in dorne' and fought to the death to avenge the death of his young sister whose only fault was the family she had joined. How does she avenge him? Kills a young girl whose only fault is her family. She wipes out Oberyns family line because they're weak- when has Trystane had a chance to prove his strength? And then against all sense, becomes the ruler through her claim as the last ruler's brother's girlfriend. 

Liam Cunningham is a particularly impressive actor who did a wonderful, heartfelt job as Davos. Now he looks goofy as Jon's chipper cheerleader, who seems to have no family or backstory (who is Stannis? Did I have kids ever?), and who flirts with Missendei and ribs Jon about staring at Dany's boobs. 

Yes, you've reminded me how much of a travesty the Ellaria created by the show became.  It's just so nonsensical.  I don't understand why they haven't given Davos some small scene to explain his sudden devotion to Jon.  I can understand him choosing Jon as the one to serve, but how about an explanation for how it's become this deep?  You know, something better than.......whelp, what to do with Davos since someone says I can't kill him off?  I'm guessing that is one of the main reasons Davos wasn't sacrificed along with many other characters who've met premature or nonexistent deaths in comparison to the books.  Ellaria really is one of the worst things this show has ever done.  I imagine Oberyn being pissed off in the afterlife and hiding from her for eternity. 

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I for one am glad that they showed the four crazy long chains used to raise the dragon from the depths of that frozen lake.  It finally answers the question of what the army of the dead has been doing for the past seven seasons.  All that time they were mining the scarce iron deposits found north of the wall and forging what appears to be Westeros' first rust resistant metal chains.  Easily a decade of work.  And people say D&D pay no attention to timelines.

On the other hand, WTF was that throw?  Easily a quarter mile away, on the move, elevated target, and he threw that spear on a frozen rope.  Who wants to bet he will never again display that type of ability and we will be expected to forget it ever happened.  D&D literally did the exact same thing in Troy with Achilles.  Nothing that happened before or after that shot in Troy would make the viewer believe such a feat is possible, but it looked cool I guess?  No, actually it looked stupid.  The Night King really gonna hold out his arm and call his shot like he's Babe Ruth?  Might as well have yelled "Kobe" as he let it fly, I couldn't have been less immersed anyway.

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2 hours ago, Pinn said:

I am not a big reader of the series or the books, and the implausibility has sorta screwed the series for me now, but imo this would have made more sense:

1. Jamie and Bron are captured. Rather than kill them Tyrion suggests a prisoner swap for Yara and Ellaria in good faith for a truce because of the WW threat to the north. Daenerys is suspicious of Tyrion's motives but Yara and Ellaria are valuable to her in consolidating her support. This is the Kingslayer who killed her father, Aerys. She is holding all the cards now but this is a good faith arrangement, she is not her father. She finally commits to a dialogue but when turning to have Bron killed, Jamie intercedes saying no deal unless Bron (who saved his life) lives.

Cersei get word but only agrees to a swap for Yara and also adds a demand for proof of the undead threat if there is to be a truce-- not necessarily to get Jamie back (as he finds out later) but to afford her time to buy a mercenary army. Not the best outcome for Daenerys but the exchange is made. Cersei and Daenerys get to observe each other for the first time from a distance.

2. Northern fellowship sets out with ravens to accede to Cersei's demand. They secure a wight but become overwhelmed with the main army coming down on them...the undead army is slowed crossing the ice and allows the group to escape. What follows is a several days and nights of pursuit back to the wall with the group eluding and resting in fits and starts. Early on in the chase a raven is sent to Eastwatch informing them of their dire situation and what is to come. Davos in turn sends a message to Daenerys.

3. Now close to the wall the undead army catches up with the exhasted party near Eastwatch. A fight ensues, Daenerys (who has had time to come north) and her dragons intercede. In the fight, Viserion moves to blast the NK and his generals, only to be felled by a javelin. Daenerys immediately reacts in a heartfelt way, but Jon also similarly reacts which confuses him. In the ensuing chaos the party manages to withdraw back to the wall.

 

Viserion, the "ice dragon" makes short work of the wall defenses, everyone withdraws and the undead are on the march.

HAR! How dare you use logic and "sense" when watching the current series? Book Jaime would probably step in, but not this Larry version. He doesn't want to ever disagree with his true love Carol. I like#2 because it parallels what the wildlings went through on their way south. And it covers the basic premise of time passage and distance. 

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1 hour ago, Bear42 said:

I for one am glad that they showed the four crazy long chains used to raise the dragon from the depths of that frozen lake.  It finally answers the question of what the army of the dead has been doing for the past seven seasons.  All that time they were mining the scarce iron deposits found north of the wall and forging what appears to be Westeros' first rust resistant metal chains.  Easily a decade of work.  And people say D&D pay no attention to timelines.

On the other hand, WTF was that throw?  Easily a quarter mile away, on the move, elevated target, and he threw that spear on a frozen rope.  Who wants to bet he will never again display that type of ability and we will be expected to forget it ever happened.  D&D literally did the exact same thing in Troy with Achilles.  Nothing that happened before or after that shot in Troy would make the viewer believe such a feat is possible, but it looked cool I guess?  No, actually it looked stupid.  The Night King really gonna hold out his arm and call his shot like he's Babe Ruth?  Might as well have yelled "Kobe" as he let it fly, I couldn't have been less immersed anyway.

LOL  Exactly.  It's good to know what the hell the WW and wights have been up to all this time.  The only army that doesn't need food or rest and they're not making ANY kind of progress.  All that mining and metal smithing, not to mention, javelin training for the NK.  It all makes sense now.  ;)

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I can't be the only one upset that we haven't mysteriously had an episode show up on the nets again, can I?  I want to get this season over with, the good, the bad, and the stupid.  Those scenes of the Dragon Pit gathering look amazingly.......convoluted, LOL  Almost as well plotted as that wight hunt.  And we thought RUN TO EASTWATCH, leave the cannoli, I mean hammer........was preposterous. 

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3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Sandra calling it the Battle of the Bastards was hilarious.

I know that within the world of Westeros these battles are given such names, but when Sansa said it, I suddenly jumped out of the story. It felt like two actresses talking about a scene in the show rather than a battle that happened in the world they live in.

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30 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I know that within the world of Westeros these battles are given such names, but when Sansa said it, I suddenly jumped out of the story. It felt like two actresses talking about a scene in the show rather than a battle that happened in the world they live in.


I didn't get that, too. These names for battles do tend to come after the fact, but not that soon. Like, Sansa should have said "I won the battle for Winterfell, not Jon," etc.

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Just a caution. I commented something similar to this a couple of weeks ago and it kicked off a debate which ended up with me, and presumably many others, being handed a warning point.

What I learned from that was that comments like this aren't to be placed here. This thread isn't for debates. It is purely for people to do as the title says, 'Rant and Rave without Repercussion'. If you haven't got a rant or a rave, there really is no point commenting here unless you want to get into arguments and be handed a warning, which is what happened to me.

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I don't think anyone is taking it as a personal affront. The commentary regarding poor writing and dialogue is fair criticism as far as I'm concerned. If everyone just looked at the positives then there would be zero point in any discussion. And just because there is no more source material it does not excuse professional, Emmy award winning writers from such inconsistency in plot and character and Beavis and Butthead level dialogue.

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9 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I don't think anyone is taking it as a personal affront. The commentary regarding poor writing and dialogue is fair criticism as far as I'm concerned. If everyone just looked at the positives then there would be zero point in any discussion. And just because there is no more source material it does not excuse professional, Emmy award winning writers from such inconsistency in plot and character and Beavis and Butthead level dialogue.

I guess this season shows how 'unprofessional' the writers are now that they have no source material. They needed more seasons to fully flesh out the remaining narrative - perhaps then the quality would have been better. :/ it is a shame.

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17 hours ago, ser naes yennet said:

why not just walk up, look down, and raise his arms??  (ala Hardhome, when everyone rose), and have the dragon crack the ice and rise on its own??!!  would have looked cooler, but probably cost more in CGI to do it.

I agree 100 % (I think I also wrote it somewhere). They didn't even need to make him break the ice and fly out (even though I'm quiet sure they could afford it). The viewers are not supposed to be fed up like children:  they could have just shown the NK looking down and doing a movement with his hand. It would have been pretty clear what he was doing.

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Just now, Dawn of Fyre said:

I guess this season shows how 'unprofessional' the writers are now that they have no source material. They needed more seasons to fully flesh out the remaining narrative - perhaps then the quality would have been better. :/ it is a shame.

Definitely is a shame. Another issue is that the pacing is so fast that there is just no time to slow down and feel any emotion. Think this is a major reason why many of the reunions have been underwhelming and characters are now coming across as merely puppets in service to the plot. Probably should have stuck to the ten episode format and perhaps even 9 seasons. HBO would certainly have had no problem with that since GoT is a money-making machine but it would appear that the showrunners just want to get this over with asap.

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6 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Definitely is a shame. Another issue is that the pacing is so fast that there is just no time to slow down and feel any emotion. Think this is a major reason why many of the reunions have been underwhelming and characters are now coming across as merely puppets in service to the plot. Probably should have stuck to the ten episode format and perhaps even 9 seasons. HBO would certainly have had no problem with that since GoT is a money-making machine but it would appear that the showrunners just want to get this over with asap.

Agreed.  The showrunners have decided to move on and cut down the number of eps, and so the hand-waving has become even more noticeable and egregious.

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