Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Illiterati]

3 minutes ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

But what for? In order to fool the show's audience? That would be a B-movie plot device. She could have had him killed already by giving a simple order to Brienne.

LF stressed to Sansa that Brienne swore to protect both Stark sisters. He said it in a way implying that it's Sansa who would need Brienne's protection, but those words can just as easily be construed that if they want to get rid of Arya, then it would be best to get Brienne out of the picture first.

Arya is giving Littlefinger cause to suspect that he has created enough angst over the raven he planted, to distrust her to the point of eliminating her.  She's also given him the cause with her "all I would need is your face" to see a means by which Arya could eliminate Sansa.  Sansa has sent Brienne away so that Littlefinger wouldn't be concerned about Arya being stopped from harming Sansa.

 

Littlefinger is going to do Littlefinger, and slyly suggest to Arya that he knows a way that House Stark can be put under the power of a more reliable person, Arya.  Game over.  Death for treason, as LF has sworn to House Stark.

[Pandean]

10 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

If that is how you interpreted her saying "I can imagine a lot", then you are clearly just looking for any reason to dislike Arya more. 

There was ZERO mocking in her tone in that comment which was stated quite matter-of-factory and was clearly reflective of Arya knowing and seeing a lot from her own experiences, so she can imagine all sorts of horrors.

Do I have to bring up the post about why Arya is one of my favorite characters again?

I already said I interpreted the tone that way--that's the point of tones. Maybe I'm thinking of a different scene, maybe I'm not.

I already said that I don't process tones or body language like a lot of people. I'm aware of that. But I'm still allowed to say what I thought--I'm not claiming it's the ONLY way it can be seen. I'm saying it's what I saw and interpreted. Not God's Honest Truth.

 

 

[Lord Okra]

10 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

There is SO MUCH MORE than the look.  Everything Arya has said has been trapsetting.  Everything.  Down to saying all she needs to be Sansa is her face.  She's not enlightening Sansa, telling her anything she doesn't already know about Sansa, this is all for LF.

But LF isn't anywhere around in these scenes.

LF is the one setting the trap.  It's going to blow up in his face but not because Arya was really setting it up all along.  It will be Sansa/Bran figuring it all out is my best guess based on what we've seen on screen.

I mean, Sansa already knows that Littlefinger can't be trusted and has wanted to off him since she saw him that day with Brienne.  But, she also knows he controls SweetRobin, and thereby the Vale, plus she also knows what he "wants".......he wants her and the IT together.........so Sansa "plays" Littlefinger.....or she thinks she does by keeping him around.

Littlefinger believes he can manipulate anybody, including Sansa.  But she's been tough.  He has tried to cause her to turn from Jon.  He's trying to turn her from Arya now.  He pumps her ego.  But Sansa, to her credit, has refused to turn from Jon or Arya so far even with LF whispering in her ear.

However, once she learns it has been him stoking Arya to turn on her......he gonna be gone.

[Illiterati]

1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

But LF isn't anywhere around in these scenes.

LF is the one setting the trap.  It's going to blow up in his face but not because Arya was really setting it up all along.  It will be Sansa/Bran figuring it all out is my best guess based on what we've seen on screen.

I mean, Sansa already knows that Littlefinger can't be trusted and has wanted to off him since she saw him that day with Brienne.  But, she also knows he controls SweetRobin, and thereby the Vale, plus she also knows what he "wants".......he wants her and the IT together.........so Sansa "plays" Littlefinger.....or she thinks she does by keeping him around.

Littlefinger believes he can manipulate anybody, including Sansa.  But she's been tough.  He has tried to cause her to turn from Jon.  He's trying to turn her from Arya now.  He pumps her ego.  But Sansa, to her credit, has refused to turn from Jon or Arya so far even with LF whispering in her ear.

However, once she learns it has been him stoking Arya to turn on her......he gonna be gone.

Again, do you need "Dun Dun DUN!" and a spotlighted Littlefinger hiding in the corner of every scene to understand that Littlefinger spies, that's what he does?  Is showing Arya watching him pay off the chambermaid, and then showing him spying Arya leaving his quarters, not enough of a hint for you that Littlefinger is still up to his old games of finding information then using it to his advantage?  Only this time, he's gonna get a shocker.  He got played.

Littlefinger believes he can manipulate anybody, including Sansa..  Littlefinger also believes he can manipulate Arya, all he needs is the right carrot.  He thinks he found it based on her reaction to the scroll.  Arya's not so stupid as not to understand Sansa was in survival mode.  This was all a pageant put on for anyone observant enough not to think Bran needs to say, "Hey, Arya, I saw you tricking Littlefinger.  You were beautiful,"  for them to get that this is a sting operation.  Mark my word.

And now I understand by Sansa sending Brienne away that if she wasn't in on the ruse before, she is now.  The climate is ripe with no Brienne there, for LF to try to play Arya to kill and become Sansa.  Oh, you think he loves Sansa too much to make that suggestion?

[Pandean]

5 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

"Hey, Arya, I saw you tricking Littlefinger.  You were beautiful,"  

Gonna have to add that to my Bran memes.

[The Bastard of Summer]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya has been showing this type of calm, self-controlled behavior since she drank from the pool and got her eyesight back.

Whenever Maisie has her hands behind her back and smirks a bit, she's "no one". Oh, that's right, that's when she had an assignment to off an envious young woman who wanted the older lead actress killed, and she refused to do it, in fact alerting the older actress of what was happening. But the basic plot then was that she fucked up, because she refused to do so openly, while the waif was spying on her whether she did her job right. Arya uses that hands behind her back walk and little smirk (which is actually a Jaquen impression, not a waif one) when she tries to get passage to a boat, etc. People then believed it was Jaquen testing the Waif, but Maisie already did the Jaquen impression in her Cat of the Canals disguise while watching the play. It's always been Arya, but an objective, observing, dissociating Arya. 

Twice over she repeats this episode she wanted to become a warrior, both previous and this episode she reminded how Sansa had different interests than hers.

So, combine that fact about Arya, which she acknowledges and actually being in a dissociative state, and you know her actually being jealous of Sansa's face and clothes is BS. She refused to do her aasignment in Braavos, because she doesn't believe it's right to kill anyone all to be in the lead.

Very good assessment. I don't think she's being crazy. She's playing a game and acting. She just can't tell Sansa all the rules of the game. And she needs Sansa to be believeable. Arya studied acting. It's another skill. It seems outlandish to most but I think it's showing Aryas cleverness. 

[winter daughter]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no question that this plot is contrived, and all set-up to end LF's life. Now you can fall for D&D's troll to choose a side between the sisters, or actually look at their glaringly inconsistent action to their advice given or just contrasting what they just said, and go either "ooooh, Sansa's xyz!" or "Arya's a psycho" combined with "Sansa sending away Brienne and Arya giving the dagger makes no sense"... or don't fall for the troll and accept that Sansa sending Brienne away against LF's advice and Arya giving the dagger to Sansa matters and is actually the most important choices by them.

I never said Arya is a psycho and I know she has no intention of actually hurting Sansa. and no I'm not fooled by their stupid faux tension. I know the sisters will take him down and reconcile. and both of them are my favorite characters.

As I said before I understand Arya's concerns and suspicion. but I do not like the way she is acting on them. Sansa held her ground but she was scared to death and on the verge of crying.

Why playing mind games when you can talk?

[Lord Okra]

26 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Again, do you need "Dun Dun DUN!" and a spotlighted Littlefinger hiding in the corner of every scene to understand that Littlefinger spies, that's what he does?  Is showing Arya watching him pay off the chambermaid, and then showing him spying Arya leaving his quarters, not enough of a hint for you that Littlefinger is still up to his old games of finding information then using it to his advantage?  Only this time, he's gonna get a shocker.  He got played.

Littlefinger believes he can manipulate anybody, including Sansa..  Littlefinger also believes he can manipulate Arya, all he needs is the right carrot.  He thinks he found it based on her reaction to the scroll.  Arya's not so stupid as not to understand Sansa was in survival mode.  This was all a pageant put on for anyone observant enough not to think Bran needs to say, "Hey, Arya, I saw you tricking Littlefinger.  You were beautiful,"  for them to get that this is a sting operation.  Mark my word.

And now I understand by Sansa sending Brienne away that if she wasn't in on the ruse before, she is now.  The climate is ripe with no Brienne there, for LF to try to play Arya to kill and become Sansa.  Oh, you think he loves Sansa too much to make that suggestion?

I don't need a Dun Dun Dun if Arya is being played by LF.

You are saying that Arya/Sansa have a huge scheme going where they pretend the entire time that they are just going along with LF's scheme.....its a double trap!!!!

Awesome.

 

[Illiterati]

2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

I don't need a Dun Dun Dun if Arya is being played by LF.

You are saying that Arya/Sansa have a huge scheme going where they pretend the entire time that they are just going along with LF's scheme.....its a double trap!!!!

Awesome.

 

Wouldn't that be the ONLY way to entrap LF?  Con a conman by making him think he's conning you?

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I never said Arya is a psycho and I know she has no intention to actually hurt Sansa. and no I'm not fooled by their stupid faux tension. I know the sisters will take him down and reconcile. and both of them are actually my favorite characters.

As I said before I understand Arya's concerns and suspicion. but I do not like the way she is acting on them. Sansa kept her ground but she was scared to death and on the verge of crying.

Why playing mind games when you can talk?

Because imo show-Arya assumes they can't talk without LF eavesdropping. We were shown he's specifically spying on Arya. And so no, there is no location where we viewers and Arya cannot assume that LF is spying on the result of his machinations. You can't even suggest the crypts as a safe location, because both in S5 and S7 we've been shown that LF has utterly no respect whatsoever about the WF crypts being an off-bounds location for him, nor is it a location that is hard to find by non-residents in the show as it would be in the books. The godswood isn't an option either supposedly, because Arya, Sansa and Bran smooching together would alert LF that it's an act.

[Lord Okra]

14 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Wouldn't that be the ONLY way to entrap LF?  Con a conman by making him think he's conning you?

Bran is in WF right now.

I've never seen Arya con anybody in show yet she is running a con on LF?

Makes perfect sense.

That's some damn fine acting Sansa is doing in these scenes too.......since we know it is all fake.  He's listening through the door and looking through the peephole.  The invisible handmaid of Sansa is in LF's employ and feeding back info from these meetings.  I like it.

I mean, that's what the audience wants.  They want 5 years of building up LF so that he can be had in the long con by a faceless man.  That's the payoff we're looking for in a script.  Years and years of showing everything but the truth.....then......BAM!!!!!

Arya is now the greatest schemer in Westeros plus the best killer too!!!!!

She got him with a double secret plot and played him like a fool.

Littlefinger was WAY overrated.  All those scenes of LF building discord between the sisters was really just Sansa/Arya taking him down via an elaborate plot to fool him into exposing himself as their enemy.....so they can kill him!!!!

I with ya.

[hallam]

9 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

That's some damn fine acting Sansa is doing in these scenes too.......since we know it is all fake.  He's listening through the door and looking through the peephole.  The invisible handmaid of Sansa is in LF's employ and feeding back info from these meetings.  I like it.

The handmaid of Sansa reporting to LF is... Arya... !

[Mladen]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because imo show-Arya assumes they can't talk without LF eavesdropping. We were shown he's specifically spying on Arya. And so no, there is no location where we viewers and Arya cannot assume that LF is spying on the result of his machinations. You can't even suggest the crypts as a safe location, because both in S5 and S7 we've been shown that LF has utterly no respect whatsoever about the WF crypts being an off-bounds location for him, nor is it a location that is hard to find by non-residents in the show as it would be in the books. The godswood isn't an option either supposedly, because Arya, Sansa and Bran smooching together would alert LF that it's an act.

That is why I can't properly analyze this. Because, if we take this as point blank then Arya is written like a complete moron who is endangering the entire North. Which I thoroughly believe she is not doing. But, if we assume that the girls are playing LF (I think both of them may be on this, hence why Sansa sent Brienne away), then this makes some sense. But again, we have six long days until we discover WTH is going on in WF.

[JonWhoKnows]

Arya just told Sansa who she is, nothing more, nothing less. Sansa always was selfish since the beginning and mostly got herself into all these Situations she likes to cry about. Arya made it very clear that Sansa has nothing to fear of her as long as she doesn't betray her family again. It's on Sansa whether she changes or keeps making bad decisions. The doubt of Sansas Character has very good reasons, several times she valued her own happiness more than the life of others, many had to die because of her poor decisions. Sansa hasn't shown a change so far, her decision in the Game between her and Arya will set her faith.
I don't see any one of the two out of Character, they have been pretty consistent through the show. Arya makes a good summary, in this episode.

[Pandean]

36 minutes ago, Risto said:

That is why I can't properly analyze this. Because, if we take this as point blank then Arya is written like a complete moron who is endangering the entire North. Which I thoroughly believe she is not doing. But, if we assume that the girls are playing LF (I think both of them may be on this, hence why Sansa sent Brienne away), then this makes some sense. But again, we have six long days until we discover WTH is going on in WF.

Six Days or however long it takes for it to be leaked like it's being threatened to.

[sweetsunray]

33 minutes ago, Risto said:

That is why I can't properly analyze this. Because, if we take this as point blank then Arya is written like a complete moron who is endangering the entire North. Which I thoroughly believe she is not doing. But, if we assume that the girls are playing LF (I think both of them may be on this, hence why Sansa sent Brienne away), then this makes some sense. But again, we have six long days until we discover WTH is going on in WF.

Agreed, we'll know for sure in the finale. But Sansa sending Brienne away and Arya handing the dagger right after being so creepily threatening is so contradictory to what came right before that it must be deliberate, for once.

[Raksha 2014]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed, we'll know for sure in the finale. But Sansa sending Brienne away and Arya handing the dagger right after being so creepily threatening is so contradictory to what came right before that it must be deliberate, for once.

 

Arya's giving the dagger to Sansa after threatening her with it could mean that she is telling Sansa she can come back anytime and kill her, with or without the dagger.  Or Arya could actually be giving it to Sansa as some sort of proof of provisional trust in her.  The dialogue has not been written to give the audience a very good insight as to either sister's true motivation, especially Arya.

[sweetsunray]

31 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Arya's giving the dagger to Sansa after threatening her with it could mean that she is telling Sansa she can come back anytime and kill her, with or without the dagger.  Or Arya could actually be giving it to Sansa as some sort of proof of provisional trust in her.  The dialogue has not been written to give the audience a very good insight as to either sister's true motivation, especially Arya.

1. If Arya's not doing it right there and then in the scene, that definitely means she doesn't hate her or desires her face in that moment.
2. Arya's cold and cool and controlled AF, but at the same time so moronic to threaten the regent of the North verbally to allow her a chance to yell, "guard! arrest my sister for treason, because she threatened to kill me sometime, when she feels like it, later!"?

[Mladen]

19 hours ago, JonWhoKnows said:

Arya just told Sansa who she is, nothing more, nothing less. Sansa always was selfish since the beginning and mostly got herself into all these Situations she likes to cry about. Arya made it very clear that Sansa has nothing to fear of her as long as she doesn't betray her family again. It's on Sansa whether she changes or keeps making bad decisions. The doubt of Sansas Character has very good reasons, several times she valued her own happiness more than the life of others, many had to die because of her poor decisions. Sansa hasn't shown a change so far, her decision in the Game between her and Arya will set her faith.
I don't see any one of the two out of Character, they have been pretty consistent through the show. Arya makes a good summary, in this episode.

Arya's behavior is threatening. She is not being reasonable and if I were Sansa, I would be terrified. She doesn't say Sansa "you move against Jon, and you are destroyed". She openly says that she can show it to the lords, not even understanding that it would undermine Jon's goals far more than it would undermine Sansa. 

Who died because of Sansa's decisions? And if I have to explain the Vale army one more time, I swear I will go nuts  

Arya is just the shell of her character. It is so sad that one of the most perceptive, most intelligent characters have been diminished to whatever this is.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

Who died because of Sansa's decisions? And if I have to explain the Vale army one more time, I swear I will go nuts  

 

Obviously, Sansa's responsible for the whole War of the Five Kings, as well as every other bad thing and every dead person in the whole series. It's a fairly consistent point in some corners of the fandom.

But please, do explain it one more time. Perhaps this time, someone will listen.