Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You're saying that Arya accuses Sansa of shit that isn't true. But it is true what Arya accuses her of. They're not lies. And no, Sansa shouldn't be lying to her sister about it and making excuses. It just makes her look more guilty, especially if you go snopping in her room to retrieve the letter. 

She does like the finer things in life. She does believe herself superior to her father, Robb, Jon, etc. She stands on her sister calling her Lady Stark, while she herself never even uses "Your Grace" to Jon. She goes on about how she won the battle against Ramsay because of the Vale, after never telling Jon about the Vale army for weeks, and she admitted that mistake to Jon. And she, involuntarily and unwittingly, she did help Ned getting killed. She pleaded for his life, which led to him confessing to a treason he'd otherwise never had confessed to, and that was the opportunity used to behead him. It's not her fault, but she unwittingly played a part in it.

 

There may be truth in them but it doesn't mean they're true.

The context doesn't make sense.

Sansa didn't become Lady of Winterfell for 'nice things' or take her parents room for 'nice things'. She declined the room. Twice.

When did she ever believe herself superior to her father and Robb? Saying they were good people but they did stupid things doesn't mean that she believes herself superior. It's the truth. She may have treated Jon poorly in the past but that isn't the case now because she knows she was wrong. 

I always thought the Lady Stark thing was a jest that fell flat---since Sansa laughed and hugged Arya immediately after. We don't see many scenes with her and Jon but it's obvious she respects his rule.

Sansa did help win the BotB. How do we know that she knew the Vale was coming? How do we know she didn't want Jon indebted to LF? Jon was the one who played right into Ramsay's hands and charged even though Davos told him to make sure Ramsay charged first. And he charged alone. That's his fault. Not Sansa's. Also, tbh, I think the main reason Sansa never mentioned the Vale was so the writers could have a Big Damn Heroes moment. Only my opinion though.

If Ned hadn't confessed, he would still be killed. The only reason he might've been spared was to confess. If he confessed, he was meant to go to the Wall. No one took Joffrey into account. But confess or not, Ned Stark would still have died. And technically, it was Varys who said that Sansa might come to harm without Ned's confession that did anything. Sansa did plead for mercy for her father--mercy he would never have gotten had he not confessed--but the only role she had in his choice was what Varys whispered.

 

In certain contexts, there is truth and in certain contexts there is not. Sansa might not have 'fought back' like Arya mentioned, but neither did Arya. She had chances to kill Tywin, which she didn't do. Which, was the smart thing because it would have gone poorly. She could've named any name, Cersei, Joffrey, etc. but she chose her personal vendettas. Which isn't me saying Arya is at fault too--it's me making the argument that both girls were children in a game they learned about the hard way, that the 'right course' of action is not always clear, the smart thing isn't always the same as the most honorable, etc.

Part of what I love about GoT and ASOIAF is the shades of grey that cover everything. As an author, myself, it's my favorite thing to utilize. 

Sansa and Arya are both characters that linger in shades of grey. That's what makes them so intriguing. 

There is no right action, there is no one clear path, there is no infalliable truth that can never be shaken.

That's what I think when I think of the situation. 

[teej6]

56 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

You are wrong. The home she expects from Dontos and LF is Winterfell.

It's what he continues to promise her when we're last with her:

 

Those lines you quoted makes no sense in context cause by this time Sansa knows there is no home to go back to. She may long for it but where does she expect LF to take her? WF is in ruins and the her mother and brothers (she doesn't know Bran and Rickon are alive) are dead.

In the same line you quoted Sansa states "But... my lord, you said ... you said we were sailing home." And this is LF's response to her "You look distraught. Did you think we were making for Winterfell, sweetling? Winterfell has been taken, burned, and sacked. All those you know and loved are dead... Winterfell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You're a woman grown, and you need to make your own home. And then Sansa responds "But not here. It looks so..."

So Sansa didn't know where LF was taking her and she was hoping somewhere better than the Fingers. Yes she does say home but she is also aware that WF is destroyed so what does she mean by home here? To me, it's just her desire to be somewhere safe and when LF reminds her WF is no more she wants to be somewhere else not the dreary fingers. I don't see Sansa's arc as her attempting to get back to WF. Her arc is about learning from her mistakes; learning that the life she hated so much was better than anything she came to know after; learning that life is not like the stories she heard and loved; learning the skill of understanding people and possibly manipulating them. It's not about getting back to WF. 

[Stormourne]

I'm all for Arya asserting her don't-fuck-with-our-family vibe in these scenes.

Man, I just can't seem to be critical when watching shows I love. I thoroughly enjoyed every moment.

[Raksha 2014]

5 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I'm all for Arya asserting her don't-fuck-with-our-family vibe in these scenes.

Man, I just can't seem to be critical when watching shows I love. I thoroughly enjoyed every moment.

 

There's a difference between Arya asserting a don't-fuck-with-our-family vibe and suddenly becoming the Grand Inquisitor and interrogating Sansa and then threatening to kill her and wear her face.

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

There's a difference between Arya asserting a don't-fuck-with-our-family vibe and suddenly becoming the Grand Inquisitor and interrogating Sansa and then threatening to kill her and wear her face.

Especially when there's no real reason Arya should be interrogating Sansa other than Arya's dislike for her.

I don't think it would be shocking to say a lot of this is stemmed from Arya's previous views of her sister and her inability to see how her sister has changed, just like she has changed.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Sansa's longing for home is a constant, obvious theme in the book. You are absolutely correct. Those were all excellent references. Thanks for the reminder I had forgotten some of them. 

Some people just have a need to try to impress others with their smug superiority though and no matter what you say they will never admit they were wrong. 

You seem to have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than insulting others. 

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Pandean said:

There may be truth in them but it doesn't mean they're true.

The context doesn't make sense.

Sansa didn't become Lady of Winterfell for 'nice things' or take her parents room for 'nice things'. She declined the room. Twice.

When did she ever believe herself superior to her father and Robb? Saying they were good people but they did stupid things doesn't mean that she believes herself superior. It's the truth. She may have treated Jon poorly in the past but that isn't the case now because she knows she was wrong. 

I always thought the Lady Stark thing was a jest that fell flat---since Sansa laughed and hugged Arya immediately after. We don't see many scenes with her and Jon but it's obvious she respects his rule.

Sansa did help win the BotB. How do we know that she knew the Vale was coming? How do we know she didn't want Jon indebted to LF? Jon was the one who played right into Ramsay's hands and charged even though Davos told him to make sure Ramsay charged first. And he charged alone. That's his fault. Not Sansa's. Also, tbh, I think the main reason Sansa never mentioned the Vale was so the writers could have a Big Damn Heroes moment. Only my opinion though.

If Ned hadn't confessed, he would still be killed. The only reason he might've been spared was to confess. If he confessed, he was meant to go to the Wall. No one took Joffrey into account. But confess or not, Ned Stark would still have died. And technically, it was Varys who said that Sansa might come to harm without Ned's confession that did anything. Sansa did plead for mercy for her father--mercy he would never have gotten had he not confessed--but the only role she had in his choice was what Varys whispered.

 

In certain contexts, there is truth and in certain contexts there is not. Sansa might not have 'fought back' like Arya mentioned, but neither did Arya. She had chances to kill Tywin, which she didn't do. Which, was the smart thing because it would have gone poorly. She could've named any name, Cersei, Joffrey, etc. but she chose her personal vendettas. Which isn't me saying Arya is at fault too--it's me making the argument that both girls were children in a game they learned about the hard way, that the 'right course' of action is not always clear, the smart thing isn't always the same as the most honorable, etc.

Part of what I love about GoT and ASOIAF is the shades of grey that cover everything. As an author, myself, it's my favorite thing to utilize. 

Sansa and Arya are both characters that linger in shades of grey. That's what makes them so intriguing. 

There is no right action, there is no one clear path, there is no infalliable truth that can never be shaken.

That's what I think when I think of the situation. 

Yes, Ned and Robb made dumb choices, but she said it to Jon as if she never made dumb choices at the time, when she very obviously did. It's all the more infuriating she says this of Ned Stark, when he effing confessed to somehing he never would have confessed, to save her life.

And don't mistake me as attacking Sansa and defending Arya. Sansa was correct to point out that Arya couldn't save Ned at the time any more than she could. Nor do I blame Sansa. I fully recognize she was a child, and spoiled, and in love, and at a natural selfish age. But a responsible person still considers the mistakes they made and can admit to them, without excuses. The stupid and annoying thing of this plot is that they can have Sansa admit mistakes and apologize for her behavior in the previous season, while she was outright horrible to Arya, including in a manner that could have gotten Arya killed if Robert had been so inclined. The first person she should be adult enough to admit how much she chased the wrong things and was fully ready to betray her family for is Arya.

Sansa calls herself as having been a stupid girl inthe books, but not the show. It's one of the reasons I like her in the books.

It's ok imo that Sansa likes fine things. It's perfectly fine imo. And Arya stated it no more than as a fact, and it is fact. But oooooooooh, those who love Sansa better than Arya must see it as an attack. Bad bad Arya, for holding a miror up to Sansa!

Arguing with Jon in front of the Northern lords is not being fine with his rule. Especially if she harrangued him over going to Dragonstone until he said he'll leave her in charge. She was utterly fine and dandy with him leaving then. And her "Jon is the king" previous episode was nearly not as heartfelt as her debating with him in front of everyone in e1 and e2. And I'm actually ok with Sansa deep down desiring to be QitN, as long as she's aware of those desires. That's imo why that mirror Arya held up to her last episode was important. So that she could admit it for herself. And once she does, she's smart and realistic enough to recognize that this could possibly stand in the way of keeping men and armies behind Jon, and that those lords don't really want her, and how LF could try and manipulate her. Because of the mirror she admit to the reality that those Northern lords are being fickle, and would turn on her faster than they turn on Jon. Because of the mirror, she seems to find peace in backing Jon.

GOT isn't shades of grey. It's black and white. aSoIaF is grey. There are several people on this forum who write (I do), and who don't write, and love aSoIaF for its greyness.

And yes, there are truths and it's complicated. I didn't say it wasn't. Still doesn't make your claim that Arya is accusing Sansa with things that aren't true correct.

As for Ned: he was a dead man because of his leg. He already had sepsis by the time Varys visited him. Since Westeros doesn't have antibiotics he woudl never have made it 2 days out of the city.

[ummester]

It would be genuinely interesting if Arya and Sansa turned against each other - for this reason I doubt it will happen and think LF is toast.

But, Arya and Sansa are trying to set LF up, it makes no sense that they argue with each other out of his presence - just more dumb storytelling, I think.

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Ned and Robb made dumb choices, but she said it to Jon as if she never made dumb choices at the time, when she very obviously did. It's all the more infuriating she says this of Ned Stark, when he effing confessed to somehing he never would have confessed, to save her life.

And don't mistake me as attacking Sansa and defending Arya. Sansa was correct to point out that Arya couldn't save Ned at the time any more than she could. Nor do I blame Sansa. I fully recognize she was a child, and spoiled, and in love, and at a natural selfish age. But a responsible person still considers the mistakes they made and can admit to them, without excuses. The stupid and annoying thing of this plot is that they can have Sansa admit mistakes and apologize for her behavior in the previous season, while she was outright horrible to Arya, including in a manner that could have gotten Arya killed if Robert had been so inclined. The first person she should be adult enough to admit how much she chased the wrong things and was fully ready to betray her family for is Arya.

Sansa calls herself as having been a stupid girl inthe books, but not the show. It's one of the reasons I like her in the books.

It's ok imo that Sansa likes fine things. It's perfectly fine imo. And Arya stated it no more than as a fact, and it is fact. But oooooooooh, those who love Sansa better than Arya must see it as an attack. Bad bad Arya, for holding a miror up to Sansa!

GOT isn't shades of grey. It's black and white. aSoIaF is grey. There are several people on this forum who write (I do), and who don't write, and love aSoIaF for its greyness.

And yes, there are truths and it's complicated. I didn't say it wasn't. Still doesn't make your claim that Arya is accusing Sansa with things that aren't true correct.

As for Ned: he was a dead man because of his leg. He already had sepsis by the time Varys visited him. Since Westeros doesn't have antibiotics he woudl never have made it 2 days out of the city.

Where does she state she didn't make a dumb choice? She claims how stupid she was in the Godswood, how poorly she treated Jon. Ned Stark was pretty stupid, though. I love him but he was. He was woefully unprepared to be in the South. Sansa pointing that out doesn't mean she is saying she's blameless.

I agree that the two Stark sisters really need to sit down and have a nice chat but I also don't think Sansa saying any of that to Arya in her current mental state would do anything. To me, Arya does seem full of blind hatred for Sansa. Which, I mean, fits with her character. Arya does have very volatile emotions. It makes her very interesting. But it's hard to admit mistakes and have a chat when someone is literally accusing you of treason and wanting power for yourself and being the bad guy. 

Sansa does like pretty things. It's just the way Arya says it, to me, seems like she's using it as an insult. Commenting about Sansa knitting in a snide way, using the 'you like pretty things' to segue how Sansa wants all the power, etc. It's the way she's saying it, not what she's saying.

I don't mean the plot. That's ridiculously black and white. I mean the characters, at least in GoT. And I'm not saying my opinion matters more because I'm an author--I'm just saying that it's one of my favorite things that I love to incorporate into books and thus I love that in the series. Especially when it comes to characters. Jamie, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, etc. None of them are black and white characters. And I love that about them.

Maybe I said it wrong; it's not that Arya is lying but it's that the way Arya is presenting the evidence that's wrong. In her presentation, it seems like she's railing on Sansa being the cause of misfortune, getting Ned killed, betraying Jon (which she obviously isn't doing), being power-hungry, etc. Those implications aren't true.

Did Ned have sepsis? I don't remember that. It's been a while since I rewatched the first season. Ned was a dead man, either way, I guess. 

[greensleeves]

44 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Those lines you quoted makes no sense in context cause by this time Sansa knows there is no home to go back to. She may long for it but where does she expect LF to take her? WF is in ruins and the her mother and brothers (she doesn't know Bran and Rickon are alive) are dead.

That just makes it even more significant that 'home' is what drives her.  She is not promised revenge, or safety, or even family. She is promised "home" which means Winterfell, even if as Peter points out, that's difficult to achieve at the moment.

It doesn't stop him from explicitly promising Winterfell and an army to take it later on though.  Because as difficult as regaining Winterfell is it's not as hopeless as you make it seem. 

Quote

You're a woman grown, and you need to make your own home. And then Sansa responds "But not here. It looks so..."

I mean it seems clear to me that LF is trying to dissuade Sansa from openly seeking Winterfell, but Sansa clearly doesn't give up on it. She calls him out on it in her next chapter.

Quote

So Sansa didn't know where LF was taking her and she was hoping somewhere better than the Fingers. Yes she does say home but she is also aware that WF is destroyed so what does she mean by home here? To me, it's just her desire to be somewhere safe and when LF reminds her WF is no more she wants to be somewhere else not the dreary fingers. So I don't see Sansa's arc as her attempting to get back to WF. 

The importance of the 'Why aren't we at Whiteharbor?' quote is that it shows Sansa assumed the promise for home meant Winterfell (or at least the north). From her perspective, LF isn't living up to his promise. Which is why she later chastises him in Snow-Winterfell for just taking her to the Eeyrie.

The Eeyrie by the way is clearly not home for sansa:

Quote

 

She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya. But it was her maid she heard tossing in sleep, not her sister, and this was not Winterfell, but the Eyrie. And I am Alayne Stone, a bastard girl. The room was cold and black, though she was warm beneath the blankets. Dawn had not yet come. Sometimes she dreamed of Ser Ilyn Payne and woke with her heart thumping, but this dream had not been like that. Home. It was a dream of home.

The Eyrie was no home.

 

So once again home=Winterfell

Edit: The girl is literally sculpting an incredibly detailed Winterfell out of nothing.  I'm not going to copy and paste that whole scene. I don't know how this could get more obvious.

 

Quote

 It's not about getting back to WF. 

You can repeat that as much as you want, but it doesn't make it anymore right.

 

52 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why stop? Go man go, you're doing great!

It's seriously getting off topic at this point.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Pandean said:

To me, Arya does seem full of blind hatred for Sansa. Which, I mean, fits with her character.

It's very obvious by the rest of your post that you are biased against Arya, because by definition you want to hear things like below in the way you do.

Quote

It's just the way Arya says it, to me, seems like she's using it as an insult. Commenting about Sansa knitting in a snide way, using the 'you like pretty things' to segue how Sansa wants all the power, etc. It's the way she's saying it, not what she's saying.

I think you need to rewatch all those scenes and truly listen to "how" she's saying those things.

Quote

Maybe I said it wrong; it's not that Arya is lying but it's that the way Arya is presenting the evidence that's wrong. In her presentation, it seems like she's railing on Sansa being the cause of misfortune, getting Ned killed, betraying Jon (which she obviously isn't doing), being power-hungry, etc. Those implications aren't true.

One clear example: you use the word "railing". Arya does not rail in those scenes, not one bit.

On top of that Arya's being smarter than Catelyn who could not even contemplate that her sister Lysa might be lying to her. Arya has good reasons to be ambiguous about Sansa's loyalty. When she hears Sansa tell her that no she didn't kill Joffrey, but wished she had, Arya gives her a heartfelt hug in return. But she notices Sansa's formal and lackluster 'Jon is king" and yes as Sansa's sister she has every right to get to the bottom of that, for everyone's safety. Because last time she knows Sansa wanted something very much she couldn't care less about her family, about her sister, and wished Arya was dead. Sure, it was child-fight, but that's pretty much the last memory she has of Sansa, aside from her being present at Ned's execution, and Yoren preventing her from seeing Sansa fall apart and faint.

[DireWolfSpirit]

There is a fair amount of guessing over how the Arya/Sansa relationship will play out, i'm not entirely certain where this leads next. The fact that im not just easily able to predict a telegraphed outcome is what makes it all the more fun. One thing I am certain of is that I consider Maisie Williams a fantastic actress who is playing the character pitch perfect.

[Pandean]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's very obvious by the rest of your post that you are biased against Arya, because by definition you want to hear things like below in the way you do.

I think you need to rewatch all those scenes and truly listen to "how" she's saying those things.

Actually, I really love Arya.

I'm currently not a big fan of her characterization. But I was an Arya fan before I was a Sansa fan. And I love her scenes, especially because Maisie portrays the emotional aspect of Arya so well. I relate to her. I am new to these forums, however, mainly just started posting this season, so of course my criticism of her is more shown than anything else. Because I think her character could've been taken in such a better route than this sibling rivalry shit.

You don't have to believe me, though. My knowledge of myself is enough for me. *shrug*

Maybe I'm wrong with how I see it. Who knows? I didn't think this would be a big deal. I underestimate how seriously people take everything sometimes. Even me. 

I apologize if I've upset you or done anything terrible. I truly don't mean to. I do like Sansa and think she gets unfair hate (especially compared to some other characters) but by no means do I hate Arya. I'm sorry I come off that way and I'll try harder to not. I don't enjoy giving people the wrong impression.

 

[The Bastard of Summer]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually I think both sisters handled it well and that Arya wasn't crazy at all:

Sure, it sounded like she was threatening Sansa talking about faces and dresses, but what did she actualy do? She handed the dagger to Sansa. She initiates the last scene starting the lying game, but when asked questions, she answers almost all honestly... but it's also about telling a lie and making it believable (not to Sansa, but LF who's most suredly eavesdropping behind the door). Her actions show the lie in words: she was saying one thing but actually doing the opposite. From Arya's pov this scene to me was her saying "I could kill you here and now and nobody would even know, 'cause I could wear your face and clothes and use your voice, but I'm not gonna do that, so here's the dagger. Now think, sister!"

And Sansa was actually lying and dishonest about the letter she sent to Robb. Sure she was naive, a child, and stupid and manipulated by Cersei at the time of that letter, but she was not under durress. She still wanted to marry Joffrey at the time, and believed her father committed treason. And Arya can tell whether someone's lying. The show never had Sansa for once admit that she was a stupid, conceited girl back then who could throw her family under the bus, though she has in the books already. I don't care if she makes excuses to Lyanna Mormont, but to her own sister over calling their father a traitor, after lying about Joffrey's part in the Trident incident... not good. At the end of that conversation, Arya's more empathic about what she could imagine.

IMO Arya's on to LF, but she had to relay the information to Sansa without revealing his scheme is blow,:

• confront Sansa over the letter. and then advize Sansa in an indirect way to choose anger over fear
• Sansa took LF aside privately over the letter, and goes directly against his advice of using Brienne. So, imo Sansa took LF aside to figure out what the fuck LF's up to.
• Instead of following LF's advice, Sansa does the exact opposite. Sansa sends Brienne away to prevent LF from using Brienne against either of them, and Brienne's also not the woman to pretend anything.
• Sansa did make herself look guilty by snooping in Arya's room, presumably to retrieve the letter, and Arya kept that bag in a place to be found easily on purpose imo.
• Prediction: Sansa got Arya's message of "if I really wanted to kill you, I'd have done it right here and now."
• Meawhile: LF is wringing his hands in anticipation and will pay for it with his life

I still think the whole plotline is shit-filler though.

Man for the past two weeks whenever i read these boards it seems like only myself and two other people are making these connections. Thank you for the wonderfully worded post. Everyone else is so ready to make Arya a villan but cry when people point out the dark POSSIBILITIES in Sansa. Arya is smart as fuck. She's not evil. A killer yes. A TRAINED KILLER WITH A CODE. But not a psycho. If shes crazy for killing people who actually wronged her and her family and friends then every knight and solider in Westeros is also psycho.

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

There is a fair amount of guessing over how the Arya/Sansa relationship will play out, i'm not entirely certain where this leads next. The fact that im not just easily able to predict a telegraphed outcome is what makes it all the more fun. One thing I am certain of is that I consider Maisie Williams a fantastic actress who is playing the character pitch perfect.

Maisie is a really great actress. She's perfect for Arya's character. I love the different acting styles of certain actresses. And I always love the juxtaposition between Maisie and Sophie when they're in scenes together.

[Pandean]

I do wonder about the theory that they're playing it up for LF.

I'm not sure why I don't find the theory as workable as it does make sense.

I guess since the two of them have never really had much of a heart-to-heart, I can't see them tag-teaming just yet, but it would be very interesting to see that, if it is true.

They would make a killer team, though. Like, imagine.

[teej6]

30 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

That just makes it even more significant that 'home' is what drives her.  She is not promised revenge, or safety, or even family. She is promised "home" which means Winterfell, even if as Peter points out, that's difficult to achieve at the moment.

It doesn't stop him from explicitly promising Winterfell and an army to take it later on though.  Because as difficult as regaining Winterfell is it's not as hopeless as you make it seem. 

I mean it seems clear to me that LF is trying to dissuade Sansa from openly seeking Winterfell, but Sansa clearly doesn't give up on it. She calls him out on it in her next chapter.

The importance of the 'Why aren't we at Whiteharbor?' quote is that it shows Sansa assumed the promise for home meant Winterfell (or at least the north). From her perspective, LF isn't living up to his promise. Which is why she later chastises him in Snow-Winterfell for just taking her to the Eeyrie.

The Eeyrie by the way is clearly not home for sansa:

So once again home=Winterfell

 

You can repeat that as much as you want, but it doesn't make it anymore right.

 

It's seriously getting off topic at this point.

I really don't want to labor the point anymore and as you said this is off topic on a Show discussion thread.  As to the bolded part, you can interpret the text any which way you want but my interpretation is that Sansa's arc in the books is not about getting home. Far from it. She longs for the safety of home and that's it. She's been traumatized so much that she wants to be somewhere safe and that can be Highgarden and with Willas and does not have to be WF.  She forsook her plans with Dontos to go home when she thought she could go to Highgarden instead. So Highgarden was what she was dreaming of. It became home to her at that point. And you conveniently omitted my quote about LF telling her that she needs to make a new home, which Sansa does not dispute. 

As to LF promising her Harry Hardying, and the Vale, and WF, we all know that the WF part is not going to happen. Sansa probably even recognizes that. Her concerns are getting Harry to fall in love with her.  Also, we'll probably have Davos back with Rickon and the North rallying behind him. And there is the matter of Robb's will. He most definitely disinherited Sansa and probably named Jon his heir. So no, LF is not getting Sansa WF and I don't think she is foolish enough to believe that. 

[Gaz0680]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

exactly. Arya is not full of blind hatred at all.

As I just mentioned in another thread, something is very different about the delivery of Arya as a character this season. 

Pandean keeps saying Arya has always been volatile with her emotions, which is only partially true. She has always worn her heart on her sleeve, UNTIL THIS SEASON.

The delivery of the Arya character and Maisie's acting style has changed a LOT this season and Im surprised more people havent noticed.

Even the conversations where the content of what Arya is saying appears angry words, the actual delivery doesnt match. Maisie has been acting Arya speaking in a very cold, emotionless and controlled manner all season. 

Compare Maisies delivery this season with that of her outbursts of anger in season 1 Joffrey/Sansa, season 3 the hound/bwb, season 4 the Hound, even season 5/6 in HoB&W where Arya yells "Im not playing this stupid game any more".

Season 7 Arya seems to have lost all of her heart and passion. Maisie's line delivery this season has been closer to that of the Waif or even the Hound than it has season 1-6 Arya.

Im certain this is by design. No I dont think it necessarily means Arya = the Waif, but something is definitely up.

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Did Ned have sepsis? I don't remember that. It's been a while since I rewatched the first season. Ned was a dead man, either way, I guess. 

He had an open bone break. In the books he definitely has: his leg is broken at the shin, but his thigh is hot to the touch, he's hot (fever), sweats and delirious. The show doesn't show Ned's delirium as it's internal POV, but they do show him as very sweaty and weak and haggard and pale as in the books.

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

He had an open bone break. In the books he definitely has: his leg is broken at the shin, but his thigh is hot to the touch, he's hot (fever), sweats and delirious. The show doesn't show Ned's delirium as it's internal POV, but they do show him as very sweaty and weak and haggard and pale as in the books.

Ah. I see, now. Thanks for explaining.

2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

 

Pandean keeps saying Arya has always been volatile with her emotions, which is only partially true. She has always worn her heart on her sleeve, UNTIL THIS SEASON.

 

I apologize if I've been coming off as rude.

I don't mean volatile as a bad thing. I mean, she feels very strong and her heart rules her. I don't think that's a bad thing. I have volatile emotions and I'm quite proud of it because it makes me passionate and good at writing and dance.(I like to think, anyway) Arya is a passionate character--when it comes to  her family, justice, her decisions. Part of my favorite bits of her storyline (that I wish were elaborating on more in the show than it was) was her loyalty to her 'pack' and how she created new ones. I loved how her kill list tended to be people who hurt her 'pack', her 'family', whether she knew them fully or not. I loved how it was that passion that kept her from becoming no one. She is a wolf to the bone. Not an emotionless assassin.

I apologize. I obvious suck at discussing things. >.>