More holes in the plot than used fishnet stockings

[3sm1r]

9 minutes ago, good girl said:

How fast do ravens travel in the books? Faster than standard carrier pigeons who can cover up to 700 miles in a day? In either medium it is never specifically explained how the ravens work.

The fact is that Westeros in the show is much smaller than its size in the books. Around half the scale of this map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

Three stated show distances*: 1000 mile from KL to Winterfell, 40 leagues (~140 miles) Winterfell to Torrhen's Square, 200 miles from The Inn at the Crossroads to KL all match up with that scaling. 

That makes the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone around 1000 miles which isn't so outlandish for a raven to make that distance in around a day.

*some one needs to remeasure The Wall.

Even if we accepted the unconvincing possibility that Gendry+raven+dragons happened in less than two days in total, we would still have to find an answer to the following question: how could they even remotely imagine to be so lucky to last for more than one day? 

They didn't know they would have been in a safe zone for hours thanks to the breaking of the ice. So the idea of sending Gendry to ask for Dany's help was already nonsense in the first place. 

[good girl]

15 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Even if we accepted the unconvincing possibility that Gendry+raven+dragons happened in less than two days in total, we would still have to find an answer to the following question: how could they even remotely imagine to be so lucky to last for more than one day? 

They didn't know they would have been in a safe zone for hours thanks to the breaking of the ice. So the idea of sending Gendry to ask for Dany's help was already nonsense in the first place. 

They had safety until the water froze thick enough for the wights to walk on. I guess that could be a couple of days.

They were at least there for 2 days since Thoros died overnight. That one day past Gendry arriving at the wall. They had the right clothes and provisions for their travels north so it isn't outlandish that they could wait on the rocks for a few days.

[3sm1r]

9 minutes ago, good girl said:

They had safety until the water froze thick enough for the wights to walk on. I guess that could be a couple of days.

They were at least there for 2 days since Thoros died overnight. That one day past Gendry arriving at the wall. They had the right clothes and provisions for their travels north so it isn't outlandish that they could wait on the rocks for a few days.

But they couldn't know it before sending Gendry. That was an unexpected lucky situation.

[Ice Walker]

I'm surprised that Gendry even made it to East Watch. Beyond the Wall is almost a continent by itself and it's not easy to navigate. Would have been better if a wildling or Tormund was sent instead.

[NickStark2494]

On 21.08.2017 at 4:44 AM, TheMachine said:

This is a tv show. Enjoy it.

What's your address ? I want to send you your medal for dumbest comment ever.

[NickStark2494]

1 hour ago, good girl said:

How fast do ravens travel in the books? Faster than standard carrier pigeons who can cover up to 700 miles in a day? In either medium it is never specifically explained how the ravens work.

The fact is that Westeros in the show is much smaller than its size in the books. Around half the scale of this map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

Three stated show distances*: 1000 mile from KL to Winterfell, 40 leagues (~140 miles) Winterfell to Torrhen's Square, 200 miles from The Inn at the Crossroads to KL all match up with that scaling. 

That makes the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone around 1000 miles which isn't so outlandish for a raven to make that distance in around a day.

*some one needs to remeasure The Wall.

It's much more than that. In the Season 1 finale we're told that King's Landing is 1000 leagues from the Wall. GRRM has said that 1 league in Westeros is 3 miles. So that's 3000 mile from King's Landing to the Wall.

What Jon says in Season 7 Episode 1 about Winterfell being 1000 miles from King's Landing is simply nonsense. It's much more than that, as Winterfell is nearly 3/4 of the way to the Wall from KL.

Dragonstone is right next to KL, maybe only 5 or 10 miles north of it, so whatever, it's about 3000 miles from where Dany is to the frozen lake, give or take.

It is simply absurd. Alan Taylor, the director, has confirmed that they were only on that rock for about 24 hours. Gendry makes it to Eastwatch at night, and we see Dany leave DS during the daytime, so that's clearly the next morning. That means that in about 12 hours, a raven flew 3000 miles. That's a speed of 250 miles per hour.

That's more than 5 times faster than ravens can actually fly.

As for Drogon, let's break this down. Dany leaves Dragonstone during the daytime. She arrives at the lake during daytime. When Jon returns to the Wall on Benjen's horse, it is still daytime, the sun is even slightly visible. Keep in mind that days are short. It's winter, and we're in the very far North.

So let's assume, being very generous to the show, that Dany leaves Dragonstone at 8:30 AM. Let's also assume that Jon returns to Eastwatch on the horse around 5 PM. It would take him a couple hours to make it there from the lake, so let's say he left the lake at 3 PM.

That means Dany made it from DS to the lake on her dragons in about 6 hours. That means she was flying at 500 miles per hour.

First of all, it is silly to think to dragons could fly that fast. That's the speed of a commercial airliner. Dragons are massive, but they only have wings, not jet engines.

But even if a dragon could fly at that speed, how on earth could Dany survive that ? She isn't fastened to Drogon in any way, so she'd fall off. Even if she managed to cling to him, she wouldn't be able to breathe at that speed. She'd be getting smashed in the face by winds that are stronger than the most powerful hurricanes. Breathing would be impossible, her eardrums would likely explode, and she'd fucking die.

The whole thing is utter nonsense.

[NickStark2494]

43 minutes ago, good girl said:

They had safety until the water froze thick enough for the wights to walk on. I guess that could be a couple of days.

They were at least there for 2 days since Thoros died overnight. That one day past Gendry arriving at the wall. They had the right clothes and provisions for their travels north so it isn't outlandish that they could wait on the rocks for a few days.

They were there for 24 hours, not two days. Alan Taylor, the director, confirmed this in an interview. Look it up.

Even if it had been two days, which it wasn't, that's still not nearly enough time for a raven to fly 3000 miles.

[Cas Stark]

It's plenty of time for water that should already be frozen solid and several inches thick, to refreeze.  

There are too many holes in that segment to even count, and the director acknowledges that they knew they were really stretching their credibility.  And oops, for many people, they finally stretched it too thin.  Oh well.  All good things come to an end.

[Forlong the Fat]

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

When you have to make up solutions.....like magic, specially bred ravens....that have never been introduced into the show, it's a sign of poor writing.  

The ravens have always been in the show.  And they always have been magic, specially bred ravens--they can carry messages all around the Westeros--something you may have noticed ordinary Ravens cannot do.  They can also be inhabited by greenseers and children of the forest, and they speak the True Tongue. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raven

[Illiterati]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It's plenty of time for water that should already be frozen solid and several inches thick, to refreeze.  

There are too many holes in that segment to even count, and the director acknowledges that they knew they were really stretching their credibility.  And oops, for many people, they finally stretched it too thin.  Oh well.  All good things come to an end.

I think the rock was a red herring.  I don't think the wights were waiting for the water to refreeze.  i think they were waiting for the red carpet entry of Dany and dragons.

Think of how it came to be that they were trapped on that island.  The wights first ran alongside them on the edge of the lake in an enveloping maneuver.  I believe the NK meant to entrap them on the island and await his dragon.  He could hit Viserion in the air while flying above the island, but couldn't have just picked them off one at a time with ice spears during the standoff?

He's not after Jon.  He was after a dragon to get him beyond the wall, so he could go get Bran.

[Cas Stark]

23 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I think the rock was a red herring.  I don't think the wights were waiting for the water to refreeze.  i think they were waiting for the red carpet entry of Dany and dragons.

Think of how it came to be that they were trapped on that island.  The wights first ran alongside them on the edge of the lake in an enveloping maneuver.  I believe the NK meant to entrap them on the island and await his dragon.  He could hit Viserion in the air while flying above the island, but couldn't have just picked them off one at a time with ice spears during the standoff?

He's not after Jon.  He was after a dragon to get him beyond the wall, so he could go get Bran.

I'll say what I said about Arya and Sansa, the show rarely works like that.  What you see is what happens, secret plans, characters acting like it's X when it's really Z hardly ever happens.  So, I very much doubt the NK was lying in wait for the dragons.  

[Cas Stark]

34 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The ravens have always been in the show.  And they always have been magic, specially bred ravens--they can carry messages all around the Westeros--something you may have noticed ordinary Ravens cannot do.  They can also be inhabited by greenseers and children of the forest, and they speak the True Tongue. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raven

 Why make excuses when the director himself admitted that the timing and distance stuff was barely plausible?

[Illiterati]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'll say what I said about Arya and Sansa, the show rarely works like that.  What you see is what happens, secret plans, characters acting like it's X when it's really Z hardly ever happens.  So, I very much doubt the NK was lying in wait for the dragons.  

Yep, you're right.  Just stood there with his long range ice spears, waiting for the lake to freeze back over.  I'm sure the squad and 1 WW also were not set up as bait for the party while the army hid out of sight.

 

I think sometimes it's harder work to figure out a way D&D can be stupid than to follow the logic laid out in the series.

[The One Who Kneels]

Just now, Illiterati said:

Yep, you're right.  Just stood there with his long range ice spears, waiting for the lake to freeze back over.  I'm sure the squad and 1 WW also were not set up as bait for the party while the army hid out of sight.

 

I think sometimes it's harder work to figure out a way D&D can be stupid than to follow the logic laid out in the series.

 

Doesn't make any sense. He could wait for the dragons with Jon's party dead or alive. Dany isn't watching the show she wouldn't know the people she set out to rescue were dead or alive until she arrived with her dragons. 

[Illiterati]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

 

Doesn't make any sense. He could wait for the dragons with Jon's party dead or alive. Dany isn't watching the show she wouldn't know the people she set out to rescue were dead or alive until she arrived with her dragons. 

He couldn't wait for the dragons with Jon's party dead.  He has a javelin, not a surface to air missile.  He needed to draw the dragons into spear range, and that meant having someone alive on the ice to save.

[Ice Walker]

3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

He couldn't wait for the dragons with Jon's party dead.  He has a javelin, not a surface to air missile.  He needed to draw the dragons into spear range, and that meant having someone alive on the ice to save.

or maybe kill them, turn them to wights and make them act like they're alive.

And, if the whole point was to keep them alive to lure the dragons in, hold back the wights even after the lake was frozen. Why did they even bother attacking them?

[Illiterati]

17 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

or maybe kill them, turn them to wights and make them act like they're alive.

And, if the whole point was to keep them alive to lure the dragons in, hold back the wights even after the lake was frozen. Why did they even bother attacking them?

Dany found them on a tiny ice lake 1600 miles away.  She doesn't need binoculars

[John Meta]

On 8/20/2017 at 10:21 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

The plot was very hard to accept.  I can suspend my disbelief but this one is asking me to stop thinking altogether.  So the raven flew at Mach 3.  Dany found them in that vast expanse.  And I am just so pissed off that Viserion died for nothing.  Nothing.  Jon should have died but at least he recognized Dany's greatness and acknowledge her as his queen. 

The raven didn't fly at Mach 3. What is happening here is that you are assuming an amount of time for Jon beyond the wall; then assuming an amount of time for other events to play out. My question is, why are you assuming your conflicted information? If we are going to bother assuming in the first place (a poor form of reasoning if you ask me) wouldn't it be more rational to assume consistent information?

[3sm1r]

32 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

He couldn't wait for the dragons with Jon's party dead.  He has a javelin, not a surface to air missile.  He needed to draw the dragons into spear range, and that meant having someone alive on the ice to save.

I still don't get how he could possibly know that a dragon would arrive to rescue those six unknown dudes. They could have just been a bunch of common soldiers (which, by the way, they should have been, if whoever was in charge just followed the ABC of military strategy: don't send the king to extremely dangerous missions) 

[Illiterati]

Just now, 3sm1r said:

I still don't get how he could possibly know that a dragon would arrive to rescue those six unknown dudes. They could have just been a bunch of common soldiers (which, by the way, they should have been, if whoever was in charge just followed the ABC of military strategy: don't send the king to extremely dangerous missions) 

There is a strong time travel undercurrent in this story, and my theory is that everything we see is in the past.  A present day Bran inhabit both 3ER Bran and the NK, so both are able to see "the future" because it is actually the past.  Bran is trying to reconcile a mistake that trapped him in the NK by having NK kill young Bran at the story point in time.  That's not my theory, but I've subscribed to it.  It explains quite a few things, including why NK would have been waiting for the dragons to arrive.