Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

[Cron]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Option B was stall in place and have Jon and buddies hide in a cave somewhere until the wights found them and THEN they are discovered and doomed right before Dany saves them. The reality is the show doesn't have time for filler anymore. 

Another option would have been to never do the "Hunt for the Wight" at all.

Which, in my strong opinion, MANY people would have preferred.

Beyond that, so many things associated with the "Hunt for the Wight" make so little sense that I'm not sure I can even keep track of it all anymore.

From the big to the small.  Why didn't Dany go with them in the 1st place?  Why didn't they ride horses beyond the Wall?  Why on Earth would they go up there with no hats? On and on and on...

 

[Cron]

1 hour ago, GeorgeIAF said:

EmergencyAwesome made a great analysis of the episode and said that they were sitting there for more than 1 day if you pay atenttion to the landscape/weather. So that explains in a way how the raven and Gendry arrived in time.

But...we are talking about thousands of miles (at least 2,000, I believe), round trip.

And even assuming that enough time passed for that, that just raises OTHER questions.

Like...how did the Magnificent Seven survive for days the way they did in sub-zero temperatures?  With no shelter, no fires and, presumably, very little food or water?

I'm sorry, but I see problems with this no matter which way I turn it in my brain.

[ramla]

12 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Homing pigeons can fly 750 miles in a day.

It is not unreasonable to think a special messenger raven could make the trip in a fantasy setting in a day.

Dragons are faster than fantasy messenger ravens.

I don't think the timing is really that much of an issue.  They marched 15ish miles past the wall.  Gendry makes it back in record time running for hours straight.  Messenger raven takes 24 hours to get to Dany.  Dragons take 6 hours or less to get back up North.....they fast.

We had a scene of them standing watching......break......scene of them sleeping.......Thoros dying in that time......break........scene of them bored from all the doing nothing leading to the fight.  First break between scenes could be 24ish hours.

 

Homing Pigeons aren't Ravens tho. Ravens aren't as fast. Maybe they are in the books but to fly like 1800 miles nonstop at 50 - 90 mph, is not realistic. It would take about 3 or 4 days altogether for all this to take place. Not counting, the time it would take for Gendry, a Southerner who's never seen snow, to make it to back to the wall.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, McAssey said:

The first point of absurdity about the effort to capture a wight was their purpose for doing so.  They don't need to convince Cersei to stop the war and turn her attention to the threat from beyond the wall, if they can just convince Dany.  With Dany and her dragons and the Dothraki and the Unsullied and the Lords of the North and the Free Folk and a lot of dragon glass and a few Valyrion swords on Jon's side, they could face the threat together, and let the Lannisters (who are never to be trusted) do whatever they want in their part of Westeros until the Night's King is defeated.Then they can come back south and deal with the Lannisters.  Everything from this first point on just becomes increasingly absurd.  And as a result the Night's King now has the very tool he needs to melt a hole through the wall, whereas up until now he and his army were contained.

Agreed, and fantastic points.

IN FACT, the Lannister army is basically devastated anyway, as are the Tarlys and Tyrells.

Even if Cersei could be trusted (which she can't be), I'm not clear on what help she can provide against the NK anyway.

Recently, Dany basically said that if she just goes north, Cersei will take the lands Dany has. Uhhhh... (a) WHAT lands? Dragonstone?? (b) So what?  Even if Cersei does somehow manage to take lands Dany holds, Dany can easily retake them when she returns south again.  The Lannister and Tarly forces are devastated. Tyrells are devastated. Freys are devastated.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, JagLover said:

The constraint is the speed of the wagons, not a fast party on horseback.

 20-30 miles a day looks more historically realistic

http://writemedieval.livejournal.com/4706.html

20 miles a day is pretty aggressive for what amounts to an army. Even the mongols on long campaigns averaged less than that, about 14 miles a day

[ramla]

13 hours ago, Cron said:

Mmmmm...pretty sure that to go from Eastwatch to Dragonstone and back, all by itself, is about a 1,000 mile round trip, maybe more.

And we don't even know how far north of Eastwatch and the Wall Jon & Company were when Dany saved them.

Did Gendry run a marathon (over 26 miles)? Two marathons back to back? Three? (Or was the Army of the Dead just lurking around a mile or two north of the wall?) Who knows?

Take a look at a map of Westeros.  Winterfell to King's Landing is 1,000 miles, one way.

Its like 600 miles between Castle Black and Winterfell.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Lerxst said:

I want to know what stopped the wights from simply walking across the bottom of the lake bed and crawling up that island. Not like they can suffer frostobite or even need to breathe. So what if the ice breaks, just means they have to talk a little harder.

More great questions.

And/or, "how much does a wight weigh, anyway?"  My goodness, many of them are barely more than skeletons.

There's been a lot of talk in other places about how thick the ice would have to have frozen to support the wight army.  Uh, they are basically skeletons, for the most part.  Not. Very. Heavy.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

EmergencyAwesome made a great analysis of the episode and said that they were sitting there for more than 1 day if you pay atenttion to the landscape/weather. So that explains in a way how the raven and Gendry arrived in time.

1. Gendry should be dead.  He has no skills for traveling/tracking/staying alive in the North.

2. If the army of the dead is only a few miles from Eastwatch, why didn't Jon just send a raven to Tormund to have them go outside, walk a couple of blocks and catch a wight?  Why did he travel from Dragonstone himself?

3. What of the can't cross water, but can swim in it to get the dragon out, plot hole right there in a single segment?

4. Why does Jon have to be made a total asshole in every scene? 

5.  Is it freezing up there or not?  The water on the lake is barely frozen, apparently, despite you know, the frozen wall that is only a few blocks away. Oh but wait, it doesn't even matter, since we saw the dead dive into the water and function.

6. Dany showing up in the nick of time is actually the least problem with the story, even forgetting about that it is again, such a stupid plan that the show felt it necessary to have characters state how stupid it is, but they all still do it anyway.

Good lord?!

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

14 hours ago, Cron said:

You think you've seen teleporting?  

You think you've seen jetpacking?

Don't make me laugh.

706 just upped the ante to a whole new level, never even imagined before, I think.

While Jon & Company are confronting the Army of the Dead, Gendry is sent to run back to Eastwatch, where a raven is sent to Dany on Dragonstone, then Dany hops on a dragon, and flies all the way back and makes it in time to save the expedition to capture a wight???

Face it, friends.  Reasonable continuity in terms of travel through time and space is out the window.

Completely out the window.

Who knows? Sansa said Jon had been gone for WEEKS.... Those 3 episodes were WEEKS in Westoros... Please... There is nothing wrong there... 

In Season 1, Robert Baratheon and Co travelled from KL to Winterfell within minutes... Do you have question about that? NO? OK! DONE! 

SEASON 1 EPISODE 1 : The scene beyond the wall... The deserter of the Night's Watch somehow arrived near Winterfell where he was caught... Then In the same episode, Ned beheads him and goes back to WF... And then they find the Puppies and take them to WF... Then they recieve a raven from KL saying that Jon Arryn was dead and that the King was going to WF... They finally arrive at WF and King Robert says he was going to the crypts... Do you remember what did Cersei tell him? "We have been riding for MONTHS my love... Surely the deads can wait..." Months in ONE episode...  ALL OF IT? IN ONE EPISODE... 

[Cron]

1 hour ago, BulletTooth_Tony said:

I don't understand why they needed Forrest Gendry when Bran has been staring at that tree for months... they couldn't have made my dude watch as a bird, notice events turn belly up when they sent him running off, and had him be the one that sent a raven to Dragonstone?  Winterfell is still quite the hike from there, but it's sooooooooooooooooo much closer, eliminates the ~day he ran for, the who knows how long the bird flew for, and the speed of sound the dragons clearly fly at...

Well, actually, I don't think Winterfell was much closer than Dragonstone, if at all.

In the books, it is said Winterfell is about 600 miles from Castle Black.  and Castle Black is probably 150 miles from Eastwatch.

So, maybe they would have saved a little time, but even that assumes they knew for a fact Bran could communicate with Dany by weir tree (or whatever), which is actually something not even I'm sure of.

[Tagganaro]

The question to me is pretty simple on this one- Do you want to let logic gaps like this override the spectacle and enjoyment of the spectacle?  For me I'm much happier enjoying this show without picking at logic gaps- Things like this certainly are stupid and they take away enjoyment and immersion but I am willing to overlook them to enjoy a truly epic and amazing battle scene with many great great moments.  As I've heard somewhere else, about 80% of this episode was pure awesome and 20% was pure nonsense- maybe some feel that ratio is different but I still think for people who want to enjoy the show they should be able to find enough amazing moments in this episode to do so.

Don't get me wrong- this is incredibly stupid.  The idea that Gendry could run back, send a raven, Dany receive that raven, fly all the way to North of the Wall in time to save Jon and co. was impossible unless Jon and co. were stuck there for at a minimum of several days- something that was not portrayed at all by the show.  That being said, I can fan-wank it away in my mind as I don't think it's hyper-important and I don't think it negates what comes afterwards.  I can just pretend in my mind that Dany was waiting at Dragonstone or left shortly after Jon and co. left...does it really change that much?  To me more about the journey and the spectacle- I thought Dany coming in by dragon was really amazing and epic and a cool moment for the show, I'm not gonna let geography screw up my enjoyment of that.  

 

[Cron]

5 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Who knows? Sansa said Jon had been gone for WEEKS.... Those 3 episodes were WEEKS in Westoros... Please... There is nothing wrong there... 

Mmmmmmmm...but even if you assume much greater periods of time passed, that just raises OTHER problems.

Like...HOW did the Magnificent 7 survive where they were for many days, or even weeks, in sub-zero temperatures with no fires, no shelter, and, presumably, very little food and water?

AND, further, consider the fact that we HAVE information on roughly how much time passed.  And the answer is, "About as much time as it took for the ice to freeze (in sub-zero temperatures) enough to support the wight army."

[btfu806]

3 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Who knows? Sansa said Jon had been gone for WEEKS.... Those 3 episodes were WEEKS in Westoros... Please... There is nothing wrong there... 

Yes... even if it was 3 weeks it still wouldn't make sense...

Should have been much longer

[Cron]

5 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

The question to me is pretty simple on this one- Do you want to let logic gaps like this override the spectacle and enjoyment of the spectacle?  For me I'm much happier enjoying this show without picking at logic gaps- Things like this certainly are stupid and they take away enjoyment and immersion but I am willing to overlook them to enjoy a truly epic and amazing battle scene with many great great moments.  As I've heard somewhere else, about 80% of this episode was pure awesome and 20% was pure nonsense- maybe some feel that ratio is different but I still think for people who want to enjoy the show they should be able to find enough amazing moments in this episode to do so.

Don't get me wrong- this is incredibly stupid.  The idea that Gendry could run back, send a raven, Dany receive that raven, fly all the way to North of the Wall in time to save Jon and co. was impossible unless Jon and co. were stuck there for at a minimum of several days- something that was not portrayed at all by the show.  That being said, I can fan-wank it away in my mind as I don't think it's hyper-important and I don't think it negates what comes afterwards.  I can just pretend in my mind that Dany was waiting at Dragonstone or left shortly after Jon and co. left...does it really change that much?  To me more about the journey and the spectacle- I thought Dany coming in by dragon was really amazing and epic and a cool moment for the show, I'm not gonna let geography screw up my enjoyment of that.  

 

I read everything you wrote, and I hear you.

I really, really do.

In fact, many times on these boards, I have taken a position very similar to what you just took.

But there are limits, and there can come a time when things become so obviously implausible that it detracts from, and pulls you out of, the immersive experience. 

[Vernon Roche]

4 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

The question to me is pretty simple on this one- Do you want to let logic gaps like this override the spectacle and enjoyment of the spectacle?  For me I'm much happier enjoying this show without picking at logic gaps- Things like this certainly are stupid and they take away enjoyment and immersion but I am willing to overlook them to enjoy a truly epic and amazing battle scene with many great great moments.  As I've heard somewhere else, about 80% of this episode was pure awesome and 20% was pure nonsense- maybe some feel that ratio is different but I still think for people who want to enjoy the show they should be able to find enough amazing moments in this episode to do so.

Don't get me wrong- this is incredibly stupid.  The idea that Gendry could run back, send a raven, Dany receive that raven, fly all the way to North of the Wall in time to save Jon and co. was impossible unless Jon and co. were stuck there for at a minimum of several days- something that was not portrayed at all by the show.  That being said, I can fan-wank it away in my mind as I don't think it's hyper-important and I don't think it negates what comes afterwards.  I can just pretend in my mind that Dany was waiting at Dragonstone or left shortly after Jon and co. left...does it really change that much?  To me more about the journey and the spectacle- I thought Dany coming in by dragon was really amazing and epic and a cool moment for the show, I'm not gonna let geography screw up my enjoyment of that.  

 

I'm essentially the same, I'm a pro wrestling fan and I learned a while back that to really enjoy it I have to stop overthinking it and lower my expectations, whenever I go online it's just forum after forum of how the product is terrible and it is absolutely abysmal and how every small little thing is a massive travesty that completely cripples the show, Vince McMahon is an old timer out of touch out to ruin the product etc. Do I wish GOT was longer seasons with much more time to cover nuances and avoid holes which you have to fill for yourself or simply overlook? Absolutely, but the show isn't akin to a Tommy Wiseau movie in quality.

Was the travel times in this episode poor? Yes. Honestly they'd have been better to have half of this week's episode and last weeks combined with the climax being when they were trapped on the rock, so you have the build from the plan to capture the wight, to them travelling, forming their group, capturing it and being trapped. Next show open with them on the rock, because there's a gap between episodes it wouldn't feel like zero time has elapsed in quite the stark manner it does when contained in one episode, bit of time of them using some throw away dialogue like "We've been here for x days, we won't last much longer", some suspense for did Gendry make it and then boom, Dany to the rescue and finish the episode with more buildup to this meeting. This episode felt like they took the final episode and the 5th episode and slammed bits of them together that meant it didn't flow very well.

Yet I enjoyed seeing the dragons as always, it was interesting to have the NK basically get his hands on his own dragon, seeing Tormund and the Hound interact was fun, the talk between Jon and Jorah etc. The "logic leaps" were not enough to ruin the episode to the point of it being unwatchable trash.

 

[Vernon Roche]

14 minutes ago, Cron said:

I read everything you wrote, and I hear you.

I really, really do.

In fact, many times on these boards, I have taken a position very similar to what you just took.

But there are limits, and there can come a time when things become so obviously implausible that it detracts from, and pulls you out of, the immersive experience. 

Whilst I obviously stated what I did above, I agree, elements of this episode did pull you out and felt rushed like in my second paragraph, it was a flawed episode in some respects that meant you couldn't completely enjoy it.

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

18 minutes ago, Cron said:

Mmmmmmmm...but even if you assume much greater periods of time passed, that just raises OTHER problems.

Like...HOW did the Magnificent 7 survive where they were for many days, or even weeks, in sub-zero temperatures with no fires, no shelter, and, presumably, very little food and water?

AND, further, consider the fact that we HAVE information on roughly how much time passed.  And the answer is, "About as much time as it took for the ice to freeze (in sub-zero temperatures) enough to support the wight army."

Ok...

Gendry : How do you keep your balls from freezing up here?

Tormund : You have to keep moving. That's the secret... Walking is good, Fighting is Better and Fucking is Best... 

Jon : There is not a living woman in a hundred miles...

Tormund : We have to do with what we got

OK! I'm not saying that They were f***ng (because they weren't moving... and they weren't fighting... They started fighting afterwards) each other since there were only men amongst them  ... But they just don't want to show us everything ... And it is impossible that the ice came back in one piece only in hours... Plus, when Dany left with the dragons and Co, Jon was rescued by The Beloved and Most Wanted Uncle Benjen, and then he's seen arriving at EastWatch on the back of the Horse ... Surely, he arrived hours after them... It took them minutes I think to arrive there... With his horse, it took him more than that... So are we assuming that Dany was freezing up there waiting for the TV premiere of "Jon's Come back! At 9pm" ? Surely not. Stop staring at those small details... Surely it is very bizarre (very fast)... But they just want us to understand and fill the gaps... 

[lancerman]

58 minutes ago, Cron said:

Another option would have been to never do the "Hunt for the Wight" at all.

Which, in my strong opinion, MANY people would have preferred.

Beyond that, so many things associated with the "Hunt for the Wight" make so little sense that I'm not sure I can even keep track of it all anymore.

From the big to the small.  Why didn't Dany go with them in the 1st place?  Why didn't they ride horses beyond the Wall?  Why on Earth would they go up there with no hats? On and on and on...

 

People generally really loved the episode so yeah.....

 

Anyways why would Dany go with a rival king, his wildling friend, the bastard of the usurper who is loyal to Jon's friend, etc for something she didn't entirely believe in? Would she bring her army? Why would she risk them amidst a war. 

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

39 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Gendry should be dead.  He has no skills for traveling/tracking/staying alive in the North.

Tormund : You have to keep moving... That's the secret... Walking is good, Fighting is better and F***ing is best...

He wasn't just walking, he was running...

40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If the army of the dead is only a few miles from Eastwatch, why didn't Jon just send a raven to Tormund to have them go outside, walk a couple of blocks and catch a wight?  Why did he travel from Dragonstone himself?

He had to see His beloved and most wanted Uncle Benjen after all 

 

42 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What of the can't cross water, but can swim in it to get the dragon out, plot hole right there in a single segment?

If they showed us what was going on down there, (can't swim) they are not idiots it's for a reason... We don't know... Maybe The White walkers did it themselves since they are more intelligent than the others... But it sounds very stupid ... i can't imagine them doing that cheap and durty Job and the other whights are just there watching...

 

45 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why does Jon have to be made a total asshole in every scene?

That's his duty... He is a complete asshole... Just like his father... smh! Marrying a secret woman in Dorne ...? "Kidnaping" Lyanna? While being married... Taking someone who was promised to someone else...? mmmmh... Don't worry, it is sarcasm... ahah! I don't know why he is such a fool...

 

48 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

6. Dany showing up in the nick of time is actually the least problem with the story, even forgetting about that it is again, such a stupid plan that the show felt it necessary to have characters state how stupid it is, but they all still do it anyway.

Good lord?!

Haha! Got Beer?

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

42 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Yes... even if it was 3 weeks it still wouldn't make sense...

Should have been much longer

Never said I was 3 weeks... I said Those 3 episodes (from 2 to 6) are weeks... I don't know How many weeks... But it still weeks...