Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Just for the sake of argument let say the party was 15-20 miles away from the Wall.  Why would the people at the Wall be able to see them ? Especially given that there are hills and mountains between the army of the dead and the Wall.

I agree with the teleportation thing was ridiculous. But to me that issue was only regarding the raven getting to Eastwatch to Dragonstome and Dany flying back. That should have been addressed with a tleast a line of dialogue and I stated a page or two back. I see no timing issue whatsoever with Gendry's run back to the Wall.

Simply due to the insane height of the wall, you could see pretty far away on a good day.. and the weather was seemingly good that morning. 

Anyway, the Gendry thing I could kind of forgive, its a minor issue. But when you add it up to the raven speed + the dragon speed then really you are looking at 4-5 days at the very very least between Gendry going and the lake fight. The episode was shot to suggest it was one solitary night. Its hard to even imagine they could survive in that cold for more than 1 night (one is a stretch anyway). But even if they could, the director cocked up by giving the appearance that those events happened in such a short amount of time. 

I personally found it pretty insulting to the audience's attention span to suggest we  don't notice things like this. I've forgiven almost every other lack of attention to detail and vague timekeeping on the show, but this one really stung because there was simply no way to excuse it. They are usually vague in timescales, which means they can get away with it, but there is no vagueness here.

[Lord Okra]

4 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

For someone who constantly likes using argument "they don't have to put everything out there, we can assume stuff" you sure aren't assuming much (apologize if I mistake you for someone else, but that is a very common argument to counter those who say show did not portray well how much time has passed during wight hunt). I told you, there's a table map in scene with the forest stretching parallel to the wall, that same forest is named Haunted forest, even in the show (even if they haven't mentioned it - though I'm sure they did - the name does not matter much, it is till there, the forest). Map in the show is a map, it should relate to the actual terrain in show or not?

El guapo added about the ending scene about Jon coming out of the forest as well. And not just that, in that very same scene there is a really good view on the outside from atop of the Eastwatch -> there are no mountains on the horizon, it is just forest, a really big forest.

What more do you want? Honestly, if that's not enough evidence for you, we'll have to agree to disagree.

They aren't going to do multiple shots from the wall for you.

You have to let it go man.  They reuse sets and they reuse footage they've already made for previous seasons.  That's the way a tv show works due to budget and time constraints.

Complaining about it is just unwarranted.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Lord Okra said:

It is most likely the reusing of CGI wall footage.

I mean, people can complain about resuing slightly altered CGI footage if they want.

It would be a really petty complaint given the nature of TV.

so then it exists. If I recall correctly the forest appears in the first seasons, in this episode at least twice. N the first scene of the map and when Jon is returning. Also, I think there is a forest in the scene of the ravens of Bran in ep 5.

I have just looked at the illustration of my book and the haunted forest is the first thing that appears after the wall, even in Eastwatch. And the map from Dragonstone is the same than the official one from the books, and the credits use a simplified version of it.

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

They aren't going to do multiple shots from the wall for you.

You have to let it go man.  They reuse sets and they reuse footage they've already made for previous seasons.  That's the way a tv show works due to budget and time constraints.

Complaining about it is just unwarranted.

So last season when Dany is taken to Vaes Dothrak, why didn't they reuse season 1 footage of the place? Why did it look like a completely different location?

[Raven Banner]

43 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

The show never puts a vast haunted forest directly north of Eastwatch.   If it did, show it.  Give me a time stamp.  Do something to support your claim.

When they return to the Wall and Daenarys is standing in an observation tower on top of Wall. We can a vast forest.

[plastic throne]

2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

They aren't going to do multiple shots from the wall for you.

You have to let it go man.  They reuse sets and they reuse footage they've already made for previous seasons.  That's the way a tv show works due to budget and time constraints.

Complaining about it is just unwarranted.

?? They don't need to make a couple of extra wall shots for me, the one they did was more than enough.

There is Haunted forest outside Eastwatch, and it's big. Like, really big. And it is not just reusage of footage because we see it on the map in the (unique) opening scene and those two (map and ending scene) support each other. So Gendry did have to pass that, he wasn't just a few hours away.

Sorry for what I am about to say, but I honestly feel like you are trolling me.

[ramla]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, my point is that indeed D&D are not up to par writers, and they cannot handle criticism well either. The director who did BatB was not asked to come back. Reading his interview about the issues he had to direct it is a likely hint why he either didn't want to or wasn't asked to return.

But there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that it partly has to do with not spoiling plot twists of tWoW. The nearer they got to post-aDwD plots in the series (while others wee still on their aFfC plot or even aSoS) we get D&D saying that some of the paths to the endgame may be different. George concurs this. This then becomes "endgame will be the same" between S5 and S6. By the time that George apologized publically for not meeting  his deadline jan 2016, S6 is in the editing and cutting rooms in order to be aired a few months later and D&D have to start writing S7. That's when D&D even went as far as to say that the endgame may be in the same vain, and in other words might be different too. And George definitely says "books are books, show is show." We haven't had a "when George told us" anymore for this season. When S8 will be filmed and aired is a question mark, other than NCW saying he expects to be filming again in October. The message changed of how post-aDwD would be handled season per season and we know that George believed he'd be done by Jan 2016, once he stopped doing his once per season script.

Meanwhile you can see a slowing of the northern and Wall plotline in S4. They stalled stuff immensely there. Stannis' fate in S5 is the one described of the Pink Letter, with Shyreen's and Selyse's jammed into it. Jaime was not gonna have anything to do in S5, other than be in KL, until Cogman suggested they could send him on a mission to Dorne. By their own admission they never planned to do Dorne at all. Interviews with our chatty costumer, director interviews of filming in the museum, and the sand snake actrices all indicate that Dorne was written and jammed in after the rest was already written for S5. And they jumped on it as a vanity project for Indira Varma and give Jaime somethign to do. But Jaime had loads to do in aFfC and in aDwD we have one more chapter that leaves his fate a cliffhanger. But they delayed that, and still got him back to KL, but at a point where they could still decide at the start of S7 that he turns his back on Cersei right there and then. Now, let's say that hypothetically Jaime dies in the first half of aDwD? Or that he's in fact already dead and hanged and we'll learn it in tWoW, Brienne I? Then you can understand why they delayed Jaime and we don't have an LS.

But I totally agree that this is not the sole issue, nor does it make George responsible of the writing flaws of D&D after S4. George's writing responsibility is to the books, and it was D&Ds responsibility to come up with a plan for post-publication plot long before they even got that far, not just plotwise, but writing team-wise. After all, they might have hoped like George that tWoW was published by S6's airing, but certainly aDoS would have been an issue. And their personal flaws incapicated them to deal with this adequately.

True. I think they must've really miscalculated both the length of the show and the length of the wait for GRRM to finish.. I mean coming into the series, you don't even know if you'll get a second season, let alone 7 of them. Im sure George thought, 5 books packed with story could hold them until he finished the series. lol 

I didn't realize that about Dorne... i see why they hacked it to pieces. Same with Stannis. I know he wasn't a favorite character of theirs. And they showed it.

I think you're correct about them holding things back to keep from spoiling. I never thought of it all that way and it makes sense back then to try and stall until they realized, both D&D and GRRM that the story would inevitably overtake the books. They held out hope tho! lol

[ramla]

13 minutes ago, Raven Banner said:

When they return to the Wall and Daenarys is standing in an observation tower on top of Wall. We can a vast forest.

Fax lol

[Lord Okra]

24 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

?? They don't need to make a couple of extra wall shots for me, the one they did was more than enough.

There is Haunted forest outside Eastwatch, and it's big. Like, really big. And it is not just reusage of footage because we see it on the map in the (unique) opening scene and those two (map and ending scene) support each other. So Gendry did have to pass that, he wasn't just a few hours away.

Sorry for what I am about to say, but I honestly feel like you are trolling me.

It is fine.

Carry on complaining about everything on the show.

That's what this episode forum is for.....for people who think the show sucks.

ETA: And as far as trolling.  That's what most of these posters are here for.  To troll the show forum.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I also totally agree with @The Fattest Leech that they are actually still using book material, and up until S6 they had plot narratives of aDwD, such as the scene you cited and the kingsmoot of hte Ironborn, and the RR siege. At present they still use imagery and base part of their dialogue on book scenes in a plotzee and keyword way. I recommend reading the chapter of aSoS, Arya IV for example and aCoK, Arya II, in particular the scene where Arya challenges Gendry to a sword fight and the scene at the smithy in Acorn Hall for half the dialogue with Gendry in it. Jorah's conversation with Thoros about Pyke comes from that chapter, including the "brave" and "drunk" ideas. Both innocent duel/tumble scenes revolve around each individual's strengths: one is stronger, Arya's quicker. A character can only win a play-fight of Arya if they're "faster" than her.

 

I had to re-read it and I think it could be true, that they used it.

 

Quote

Tormund is a freefolk version of Ser Hyle in aFfC. The cave scene of tWoW, Arianne II was used at Dragonstone, and Dany is put in white and have her hair braided like Val in aDwD in this episode.

He totally is. And they are influenced by the audience's recations. They never meant him to be a real threat to Jaime and Brienne's romance, as they state din an interview, but they played a little with Ser Hyle's role in the books, and they are ding the same this season.

[Armand Gargalen]

5 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

Would an example of this be, The Frozen 7 (and their 7 redshirts) taking ravens with them on their nonsensical kamikaze mission, and/or Dany flying to Eastwatch to be on standby for an extraction mission? 

Simple and elegant solution. The only problem is that it does not provide for a "miracle rescue" so the showrunners disregarded it.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I know. I just think it was writing convenience to hae the ice breka because D&D admitted in the inside-the-episode they wanted the NK to have a dragon and Dany to lose one, get some deadly adventure going without killing them, except for the spares they could do away with. They had to get them in a confrontation where the wights are halted by a barrier, and have time pass enough to fudge with Dany saving them. The WWs and NKs can freeze stuff, but here they didn't, because then D&D don't have a stand-off. It's got nothing to do with some super plan by the NK. If the NK's a greenseer who can see into the future (something Bran hasn't been shown to do) and could see which dragon he'd be able to take down, then he also knows he's gonna lose. So, then that means he's trying to change the future, and thus no reason for him to get all of them killed once Gendry's sent running. The whole NK-set-up-trap-because-he-knows-hes-getting-a-dragon is full of foreknowledge paradoxes,and doesn't explain him not freezing the lake to kill them, and throwing a spear at Viserion before Drogon.

 

You will enjoy my Night King Master Plan Theory, in "Siding with the Night King" thread.

2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

I was merely making a joke. But to address your points why would Gendry die prior to reaching Eastwatch? (nevermind the fact he nearly did when he collapsed prior to reaching the gate) And I agree the magnificent seven would have died had Dany and her dragons not showed up. They got extremely lucky that she showed up when she did.

They were not lucky, the showrunners set it up that way. 

2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Here we go.

It isn't about convincing just one person......and esp not Cersie.

It is about convincing the entire REALM.  There will be lots of "Kingdoms" represented in the meeting.

Did you see that Sansa got a letter last episode inviting her to attend?  Do you think the Vale got one?  Basically, I'm sure every leader got one asking them to come see.....

They are going to TRY to get every person they can on board.  That's the purpose of the mission......on top of convincing Jamie....who leads the armies of everything Cersie controls.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Oh, so there is no hope to convince Jamie?

Funny, cause I'm pretty sure Jamie will be convinced and Cersie wlll lose her general.

And you keep harping on they should have taken KL.  Of course, they have had about 4 convos on screen explaining why they won't just attack KL.  "Queen of the ashes" ring a bell??? Nah, you aren't watching the show obviously or you are simply not paying attention.

Like I said, you have to ignore half the show in order to make most of these complaints.

I discussed this situation with my girlfriend´s father, who is an artillery commander. He confirmed that any sane military commander that had such a massive superiority will bluntly display to force the enemy to surrender. 

2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Exactly, Jon already nearly got destroyed because people didn't believe him about Mance's army......The Nights Watch no less.

He has to get as much support as he can.  Dany was being stubborn.  So....they come up with a desperate plan.....stupid plan.....to get the "proof" that the threat is real.

Why?  Because Jon KNOWS he must convince as many as he can.

If he can't convince Cersie.....maybe he can convince Jamie......or whoever else is still left in some form of leadership.

But, if you ignore that people from around the realm have been invited and the goal is to unite the ENTIRE REALM (as much as feasible) in order to defeat the WW (which is all in the show really) then you can complain about this or that......

And all half these posters are here for is to complain.  They ignore half of each episode so they can complain.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Here you are with the Cersie crap again.

Nobody on the show trusts Cersie.  They are trying to convince Jamie because he is the reasonable one and he is the one who actually (so far) leads all of Cersie's ground forces.

So, if we can convince Jamie then he won't lead Cersie's armies against us from the rear while we are gone.....maybe he even takes the remaining forces and marches them north.

Or maybe we can convince the remaining Lords of the Reach and Dorne and the Stormlands and the Vale and the Riverlands......

Maybe Edmure shows his face at this meeting.  Maybe SweetRobin shows up.

If any of them do......your plot hole is filled in with cement.  Your stupid mission talk ends up sounding stupid....because you jumped the gun.

 

Will you admit that you were wrong if we do not see Sweetrobin or any other significant delegate from The Vale, Dorne or the Stormlands?

[lancerman]

There was no deus ex machine. Way to many people confuse an improbable event with a deus ex machina. 

The entire dragon save was telegraphed all episode. We know dragons exist. We know Eastwatch exists. We know they sent Gendry to Eastwatch to send a Raven to get Dany and her dragons. 

Deus ex Machina would be like if Dany said no and then Theon used magic powers we didn't know about to summon a Kraken from Uber the ice to save everyone. 

[Tagganaro]

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

There was no deus ex machine. Way to many people confuse an improbable event with a deus ex machina. 

The entire dragon save was telegraphed all episode. We know dragons exist. We know Eastwatch exists. We know they sent Gendry to Eastwatch to send a Raven to get Dany and her dragons. 

Deus ex Machina would be like if Dany said no and then Theon used magic powers we didn't know about to summon a Kraken from Uber the ice to save everyone. 

There was however a Benjen ex machina lol.  

[Cron]

6 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

Would an example of this be, The Frozen 7 (and their 7 redshirts) taking ravens with them on their nonsensical kamikaze mission, and/or Dany flying to Eastwatch to be on standby for an extraction mission? 

Yes, I'd say so, definitely.

And these would have been VERY minor changes to the script.

Here's another.  Uhhhhhhhhh...the Wight Hunters RIDE north of the Wall. On HORSES.  So ALL of them can flee from the Army of the Dead, MUCH faster than Gendry could, alone, on foot.

(Some estimates have the distance between Eastwatch and the place where Valerion died as being 200 to 250 miles OR MORE.  Yes, that means Gendry ran that entire distance back to Eastwatch.  In sub-zero temperatures. Without a hat.)

[Darkstream]

3 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Like I said, you have to ignore half the show in order to make most of these complaints.

And you have to ignore all aspects of proper story telling, common sense, and logic to defend this crap.

3 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

And you keep harping on they should have taken KL.  Of course, they have had about 4 convos on screen explaining why they won't just attack KL.  "Queen of the ashes" ring a bell??? Nah, you aren't watching the show obviously or you are simply not paying attention.

Which is a stupid and contrived excuse made up by the show runners to force in their even stupider Wight napping expedition.

How convenient that Danny, in every past instance that she unleashed her dragons on her enemies, was able to control the dragonfire with pin point accuracy, decimating her enemies without a single case of friendly fire happening. But of course, she is unable to fly into KL, and target just the Red Keep.

 

[Maid So Fair]

4 minutes ago, lancerman said:

There was no deus ex machine. Way to many people confuse an improbable event with a deus ex machina. 

The entire dragon save was telegraphed all episode. We know dragons exist. We know Eastwatch exists. We know they sent Gendry to Eastwatch to send a Raven to get Dany and her dragons. 

Deus ex Machina would be like if Dany said no and then Theon used magic powers we didn't know about to summon a Kraken from Uber the ice to save everyone. 

They specifically admit the entire resolution was a Deus ex machina. The commentary basically boils down to them wanting to have this wight-bagging plotline only to realise the only logical conclusion to that was an entire party wipeout so they then worked backwards to insert contrivances that would allow them to survive. From the names characters being given +90% wight resistance armour, to a conveniently placed island in the middle of a conveniently thin ice that appears at the most convenient moment, the wight army deciding to take a lunch break just as it was starting to look dodgy, Improbably fast flying to bloody Benjen Always at the Right Place at the Right time Stark it is all just a series of contrivances inserted specifically so that this mission would not reach its inevitable conclusion. Because the writers wanted it to happen.

[Maid So Fair]

3 minutes ago, Cron said:

Yes, I'd say so, definitely.

And these would have been VERY minor changes to the script.

Here's another.  Uhhhhhhhhh...the Wight Hunters RIDE north of the Wall. On HORSES.  So ALL of them can flee from the Army of the Dead, MUCH faster than Gendry could, alone, on foot.

(Some estimates have the distance between Eastwatch and the place where Valerion died as being 200 to 250 miles OR MORE.  Yes, that means Gendry ran that entire distance back to Eastwatch.  In sub-zero temperatures. Without a hat.)

To be fair,he had a hoodie.

[3sm1r]

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

But of course, she is unable to fly into KL, and target just the Red Keep.

I thought about it. Maybe they have other ballistas, so the operation you are proposing is too dangerous. I mean, perhaps it's too generous but with all the nonsense in the show I think I will buy this explanation. There are many things that bother me much more.  

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Asking you if you are stupid is not calling you stupid.

Asking you if you are a moron, isn't calling you a moron.

Report the post.  Maybe you can get an actual fan of the show kicked.

And there you have it.

You certainly are a class act.

ETA:

Oops, forgot this part:

Aren't you?

[Darkstream]

2 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

I thought about it. Maybe they have other ballistas, so the operation you are proposing is too dangerous. I mean, perhaps it's too generous but with all the nonsense in the show I think I will buy this explanation. There are many things that bother me much more.  

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not that easy to take out a dragon. Aegon conquered the entire continent with a miniscule army and just three dragons. If Danny can't swoop in with a surprise attack, and roast the Red Keep, then her dragons are pretty useless.