Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

[Maid So Fair]

3 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

I thought about it. Maybe they have other ballistas, so the operation you are proposing is too dangerous. I mean, perhaps it's too generous but with all the nonsense in the show I think I will buy this explanation. There are many things that bother me much more.  

She could fly there at night - good luck aiming those ballistas at a black mobile target.

She doesn't even need to use her dragons though. Both Varys and Tyrion know about the Red Keeps secret tunnels. Tyrion even strolls inside during broad daylight while being one of the most recognisable people in Westeros.  Send Davos and 20 good men and the war is over. 

The best part is that Dany &co could be doing this while Jon is out there hunting wights as theres was seemingly no apparent need for Dany and her army to join the with hunt initially.

[darmody]

8 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Curiously enough, I quoted you regarding this issue and you have ignored me. Many people who never read the book also complain about the show. My brother, who has not read a single book for pleasure in his life, but enjoys good films and TV shows, can see the gaping plot holes and notice the decline of quality. Because the show, as a standalone piece of TV, is going downhill.

You don´t need to bring "book crap" to see the plot holes. As I said, just watching show the show carefully and critically can lead you to the same conclusions.

Non-book reader here. I didn't hang out on forums like this or dig into the book backstory much until this season. (Except to straighten out who was who and did what whom a bit after I had trouble following the story in Season One.) Coincidentally, I noticed the same decline in show quality remarked upon by book fans after Season Four. (During Season Four, really, but there were still strong storylines to the end of that season). Which I now find just so happens to be when the show started straying significantly from the source material. Or going beyond the source material, as the case may be. 

From my perspective, Season Five is when the show started dragging its feet, especially regarding Mereen. It didn't know what to do after the War of the Five Kings, and focused on a series of what seemed like ad hoc substitutes for telling the big stories they had set up: Dany Comes to Westeros and the White Walkers attack humanity. These substitutes were the Fall and Rise of Cersei, the Tyranny of House Bolton and the Rape of Sansa Stark, as well as Dany Dicks Around Out East. They ruined many a good character, for instance Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis, Arya, and Littlefinger.

By the time they accelerated the story at the end of Season Six, I actually saw it as an improvement. Game of Thrones was a lot dumber, with spectacle in place of plot, characterization, and dialogue that doesn't move in circles. Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter were so ridiculous and so dumb, but at least they were exciting. Unlike, say, everything in Season Five.

I stick to that appraisal in some cases, for instance Field of Fire II, which was awesome. But things aren't making even as much sense as Battle of the Bastards, which was virtually senseless. The Wight Hunt was beneath criticism. This season has been ruined by lack of chemistry between Dany and Jon, dialogue sounding like a rough draft, and the unbelievable Winterhell plot. Only bright spot is Lena Headey makes a good villain. But they couldn't plot well enough to keep her a viable candidate in the war, which makes her storyline feel like the show is dragging its feet, once again.

I don't know if all this is because the show strayed from the books. I can't know, because I don't know enough about the books. But here's proof non-book readers notice the same thing. 

[Darkstream]

51 minutes ago, lancerman said:

There was no deus ex machine. Way to many people confuse an improbable event with a deus ex machina. 

The entire dragon save was telegraphed all episode. We know dragons exist. We know Eastwatch exists. We know they sent Gendry to Eastwatch to send a Raven to get Dany and her dragons. 

Deus ex Machina would be like if Dany said no and then Theon used magic powers we didn't know about to summon a Kraken from Uber the ice to save everyone. 

 

44 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

There was however a Benjen ex machina lol.  

And the ice situated in the freezing cold north conveniently breaking just after the m7 passed by and were about to be swarmed by an army of the undead.

...not that that should've worked as a Deus ex machina, as we later in the episode find out that wights in fact can scuba dive.

[3sm1r]

9 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not that easy to take out a dragon. Aegon conquered the entire continent with a miniscule army and just three dragons. If Danny can't swoop in with a surprise attack, and roast the Red Keep, then her dragons are pretty useless.

If it's so obvious it's not a "surprise" attack. Aegon didn't have problems to burn innocent people. I guess... I don't know I'm really doing the lawyer of the devil (not even sure if that's an expression that makes sense in English) 

6 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

She could fly there at night - good luck aiming those ballistas at a black mobile target.

She doesn't even need to use her dragons though. Both Varys and Tyrion know about the Red Keeps secret tunnels. Tyrion even strolls inside during broad daylight while being one of the most recognisable people in Westeros.  Send Davos and 20 good men and the war is over. 

The best part is that Dany &co could be doing this while Jon is out there hunting wights as theres was seemingly no apparent need for Dany and her army to join the with hunt initially.

Ok let me try a final desperate defense: Tyrion won't reveal the secret passage because he fears they could kill Jaime. And for the night attack... Daenerys doesn't want to kill the servants in the Red Keep

[Meera of Tarth]

H

Just now, darmody said:

Non-book reader here. I didn't hang out on forums like this or dig into the book backstory much until this season. (Except to straighten out who was who and did what whom a bit after I had trouble following the story in Season One.) Coincidentally, I noticed the same decline in show quality remarked upon by book fans after Season Four. (During Season Four, really, but there were still strong storylines to the end of that season). Which I now find just so happens to be when the show started straying significantly from the source material. Or going beyond the source material, as the case may be. 

From my perspective, Season Five is when the show started dragging its feet, especially regarding Mereen. It didn't know what to do after the War of the Five Kings, and focused on a series of what seemed like ad hoc substitutes for telling the big stories they had set up: Dany Comes to Westeros and the White Walkers attack humanity. These substitutes were the Fall and Rise of Cersei, the Tyranny of House Bolton and the Rape of Sansa Stark, as well as Dany Dicks Around Out East. They ruined many a good character, for instance Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis, Arya, and Littlefinger.

By the time they accelerated the story at the end of Season Six, I actually saw it as an improvement. Game of Thrones was a lot dumber, with spectacle in place of plot, characterization, and dialogue that doesn't move in circles. Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter were so ridiculous and so dumb, but at least they were exciting. Unlike, say, everything in Season Five.

I stick to that appraisal in some cases, for instance Field of Fire II, which was awesome. But things aren't making even as much sense as Battle of the Bastards, which was virtually senseless. The Wight Hunt was beneath criticism. This season has been ruined by lack of chemistry between Dany and Jon, dialogue sounding like a rough draft, and the unbelievable Winterhell plot. Only bright spot is Lena Headey makes a good villain. But they couldn't plot well enough to keep her a viable candidate in the war, which makes her storyline feel like the show is dragging its feet, once again.

I don't know if all this is because the show strayed from the books. I can't know, because I don't know enough about the books. But here's proof non-book readers notice the same thing. 

thank you for sharing your experience. I was a show viewer until s5, BC I read the books in between s4 and s5, and then is when I also thought the decline began. Although I think s6 has three good episodes (5-7/8) and there are some of scenes of s5 worth watching on their own (not considering the plot).

[lancerman]

14 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

They specifically admit the entire resolution was a Deus ex machina. The commentary basically boils down to them wanting to have this wight-bagging plotline only to realise the only logical conclusion to that was an entire party wipeout so they then worked backwards to insert contrivances that would allow them to survive. From the names characters being given +90% wight resistance armour, to a conveniently placed island in the middle of a conveniently thin ice that appears at the most convenient moment, the wight army deciding to take a lunch break just as it was starting to look dodgy, Improbably fast flying to bloody Benjen Always at the Right Place at the Right time Stark it is all just a series of contrivances inserted specifically so that this mission would not reach its inevitable conclusion. Because the writers wanted it to happen.

That's still not a deus ex machina. Benjen is close but we know he exists and is connected to the wights somehow. The Dany stuff is not.

Deus ex machina is by definition a plot development that gets the characters out of danger that were never introduced or alluded to until that moment and broke the story's convention. 

An island being in a lake is not a deus ex machina. 

The main characters surviving until the big save is not deus ex machina.

The thin ice that was shown before it was used to keep the wights away is mot a deus ex machina. It would be if they ran to the island and then the wights were stopped by this ice that we didn't know existed. But that didn't happen. The characters ran to the ice noticed it was thin, kept running, then the legions of dead characters were too heavy to be supported. 

The dragons that we knew were coming are not a deus ex machina 

the character we know that lives beyond the wall showing up is not a deus ex machina

Its a coincidence and probably a heavy contrivance. 

[darmody]

7 hours ago, El Guapo said:

I don't have a problem with the "teleporting" on the show as it is understood that a certain amount of time has passed between scenes. The issue to me is that they do a very poor job at explaining that passage of time. As mentioned a few pages back in the very episode of the series the entire king's entourage travels from Kings Landing to Winterfell in the span of about 5 minutes of show time. However we are told by Cersei that they have been traveling for months. So no issue there. All they had to do this episode was have a line of dialogue from one of the magnificent seven saying that they have been out on this damn island for five days or whatever and that is it. We are talking about 10 seconds to establish this. 

A line of dialogue like that would help immensely, but sadly wouldn't solve the problem. Because in this case we're up against several hard limits. We don't know where the limits are, exactly, but they close in from every direction. The story they felt the need to tell is like being short-sheeted. If you pull at one end, you leave your body exposed somewhere else. 

Being out there for five days would make the Gendry-ravens-dragons chain more plausible. But how could the Snowicide Squad not freeze to do death? Or at least be unable to fight at the end of it? Furthermore, that only raises more questions about what the Night King is up to. He just waits for five days, without throwing spears or attempting to freeze the water himself?

That's when you come up with wild fan theories, like the whole thing being a set-up so he could bag a dragon. But if the show wanted to tell that story, it could have left more clues. And the dragon-trap interpretation creates new problems, like why did he let the zombies start attacking before Dany showed up? Why not zombify the Magnificent Six immediately and have a dummy show for Dany? The mind boggles. 

This episode obviously kept the passage of time unclear on purpose. The way they have the sun go down on Gendry without showing it going down again makes me feel like they were only out there for a day, even with the montage of the gang being cold, which could have represented any amount of time. If we call them on a day being not long enough, they can always shoot back that maybe it was longer than a day. Now shut up and enjoy your CGI. 

I don't like that way of telling the story. It's cheating. Your way is better. Isn't it interesting that so many people can come up with so many easy fixes to make the story better? Almost as if the show didn't care. The "fixes" don't totally fix the Battle of Tiny Rock Island or the Wight Hunt as a whole, but they're better than what made it on screen.

Yours doesn't even require shooting it differently. They could've just add a line of voice-over dialogue. 

[3sm1r]

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Deus ex machina is by definition a plot development that gets the characters out of danger that were never introduced or alluded to until that moment and broke the story's convention. 

Are you sure? 'cause I googled it and I have found a softer definition, as "an unexpected event or person that saves an apparently hopeless situation"

It doesn't stress the fact that it must not have been introduced

[sweetsunray]

45 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

To be fair,he had a hoodie.

Agreed. Tormund called Gendry the stupid one. But at least he wore a hood, like the redshirts. The ones freezing on a rock for 1-howmanydays didn't wear any.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. Tormund called Gendry the stupid one. But at least he wore a hood, like the redshirts. The ones freezing on a rock for 1-howmanydays didn't wear any.

and Tormund even admitted they were no so smart as well.....

[Darkstream]

12 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

it's so obvious it's not a "surprise" attack. Aegon didn't have problems to burn innocent people. I guess... I don't know I'm really doing the lawyer of the devil (not even sure if that's an expression that makes sense in English) 

I think the term your looking for is devil's advocate.

[Darkstream]

52 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Are you sure? 'cause I googled it and I have found a softer definition, as "an unexpected event or person that saves an apparently hopeless situation"

It doesn't stress the fact that it must not have been introduced

@lancerman is wrong, those are both cases of deux ex machina.

The fact that Benjin has no way of knowing that Jon is there, and in trouble, and just happens to show up at the right place and time to save him is a Deus ex machina.

The fact that there just happens to be a lake with an island, right at the spot and time that the heroes need it to be to avoid certain death, with implausibly thin ice, is a deux ex machina.

Deus ex machina (Latin: [ˈdeʊs ɛks ˈmaː.kʰɪ.naː]: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəsɛks ˈmækɪnə/;[1] plural: dei ex machina) is a Latin calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning 'god from the machine'.[2] The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device.

[Tagganaro]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. Tormund called Gendry the stupid one. But at least he wore a hood, like the redshirts. The ones freezing on a rock for 1-howmanydays didn't wear any.

The hoodie thing is definitely something I forgive the show for.  You need to be able to see characters' faces and know who is who- you couldn't have these guys wearing hats and stuff that obscures their faces.

[Meera of Tarth]

in my second rewatch my take was that Gendry was the one considering the others not very smart and thus, he left the conversation (although let's face it....all the team really thinks they will hunt a Wight in the middle of nowhere....)

[3sm1r]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

I think the term your looking for is devil's advocate.

Thank you my friend

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

The hoodie thing is definitely something I forgive the show for.  You need to be able to see characters' faces and know who is who- you couldn't have these guys wearing hats and stuff that obscures their faces.

I know. With the long shots it was helpful to recognize who was walking where without hats. They could of course have gone with colored woolen models But yeah, the women aren't knitting anymore

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

in my second rewatch my take was that Gendry was the one considering the others not very smart and thus, he left the conversation (although let's face it....all the team really thinks they will hunt a Wight in the middle of nowhere....)

He needed the hoodie more with his buzzcut and no beard. Thoros had his topknot. Sole men without a beard like Jorah and the Hound would really be cold. We lose the majority of our body through our scalp, because that's where the heart pumps the most blood too. Maybe they all acted so stupid, because of brain freeze

But agree: Gendry looked at Tormund clearly thinking - weirdo

[Dolorous Gabe]

5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

That's still not a deus ex machina. Benjen is close but we know he exists and is connected to the wights somehow. The Dany stuff is not.

Deus ex machina is by definition a plot development that gets the characters out of danger that were never introduced or alluded to until that moment and broke the story's convention. 

An island being in a lake is not a deus ex machina. 

The main characters surviving until the big save is not deus ex machina.

The thin ice that was shown before it was used to keep the wights away is mot a deus ex machina. It would be if they ran to the island and then the wights were stopped by this ice that we didn't know existed. But that didn't happen. The characters ran to the ice noticed it was thin, kept running, then the legions of dead characters were too heavy to be supported. 

The dragons that we knew were coming are not a deus ex machina 

the character we know that lives beyond the wall showing up is not a deus ex machina

Its a coincidence and probably a heavy contrivance. 

Benjenhands saving Jon is undoubtedly a deus ex machina. It's irrelevant that he is established as being somewhere beyond the Wall. From TV Tropes: "Deus ex Machina are sudden or unexpected. This means that even if they are featured, referenced or set-up earlier in the story, they do not change the course of nor appear as a natural or a viable solution to the plotline they eventually 'solve'."

You're correct that the dragons are not a deus ex machina. It only seems that way because of the - as you say - heavy contrivances in the plotting. Doesn't make it any better of course. In fact the ridiculousness of the whole wight hunt plot and the contrivances within it actually make it worse than many a deus ex machina.

Back in S5, Drogon flying into Daznak's Pit was a deus ex machina whereas it wasn't in the books. In the books his presence there causes the ruckus, whereas in the show he flies in to solve a hopeless situation. That we know Drogon is flying around somewhere doesn't prevent it from being a deus ex machina.

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Benjenhands saving Jon is undoubtedly a deus ex machina. It's irrelevant that he is established as being somewhere beyond the Wall. From TV Tropes: "Deus ex Machina are sudden or unexpected. This means that even if they are featured, referenced or set-up earlier in the story, they do not change the course of nor appear as a natural or a viable solution to the plotline they eventually 'solve'."

You're correct that the dragons are not a deus ex machina. It only seems that way because of the - as you say - heavy contrivances in the plotting. Doesn't make it any better of course. In fact the ridiculousness of the whole wight hunt plot and the contrivances within it actually make it worse than many a deus ex machina.

Back in S5, Drogon flying into Daznak's Pit was a deus ex machina whereas it wasn't in the books. In the books his presence there causes the ruckus, whereas in the show he flies in to solve a hopeless situation. That we know Drogon is flying around somewhere doesn't prevent it from being a deus ex machina.

Read the article you linked. It specifically says that the "sudden and unexpected" occurrence is coming from a NEW event, character, ability, or object. You skipped the qualifier and used further adjectives describing the actual trope to define the trope. By that logic the resolution to Black Water is a deus ex machina. 

A resolution being sudden and unexpected is not a deus ex machina. The whole point of it is that it is new and was not alluded to previously. 

You ignored the actual definition and replaced it with adjectives added on to the definition. 

[lancerman]

37 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

He/she is wrong, those are both cases of deux ex machina.

The fact that Benjin has no way of knowing that Jon is there, and in trouble, and just happens to show up at the right place and time to save him is a Deus ex machina.

The fact that there just happens to be a lake with an island, right at the spot and time that the heroes need it to be to avoid certain death, with implausibly thin ice, is a deux ex machina.

Deus ex machina (Latin: [ˈdeʊs ɛks ˈmaː.kʰɪ.naː]: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəsɛks ˈmækɪnə/;[1] plural: dei ex machina) is a Latin calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning 'god from the machine'.[2] The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device.

No it's not. Just like in the other person the definition you provided literally undermines your claims of the trope.