Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

[Meera of Tarth]

25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Or...

We knew Jon was going to survive where every other human being would have died because he has plot armor the thickness of a castle wall and we knew the show was going to do it in a contrived, Deus ex machina manner because a, they deliberately wrote themselves into a corner and b, are not good enough writers to make him survive in an organic way. The moment he fell in you knew a Deus ex machina was coming.

The fact the same plot device (because this is not a character) was used as a deus ex machina before does not lessen the fact it is *still* a Deus ex machina the second time.

Jon survives because he is a super main character and it has its advantadges. This time, they just didn't write it as something belieavble.

Poor Benjen, I actually can buy that he knew that the wights were there, but the part when he decides to leave his horse made zero sense. 

He could have run with him until reaching The Wall. BTW he knew he would just kill some wights before dying. It was inevitable.

They just don't care about secondary characters. What they are doing with JOn, making him look as a stupid commander, but that, at the same time, has the right to resurrect, be elected LC, KITN, win Dany's heart with a couple if looks, be a Targaryen, etc it's so bad writing as well.

Benjen's scene was so poorly written in regards to respecting the character, same with Rickon.

[Lord Okra]

Just now, 3sm1r said:

Sorry but you should also accept that,  as you were cheering for a wights vs dragon battle, other people were cheering for a plot that makes sense. However, while you got what you wanted, they didn't don't take it personally

The plot makes complete and total sense.

You don't like the plot.

It isn't that the plot makes no sense....it is that you don't like the plot.

They explained why they were there and what they were doing and every bit of it was justified whether you agree with the justifications and in show rationalizations or not.....they gave them and they are reasonable.

If you didn't enjoy that episode then you don't like GoT because.....it was a good episode with some great dialog and great action scenes and it moved the plot along nicely.

The plot for this story is that Jon and Dany will fall in love and defeat the AoD.

If you don't like that plot then you shouldn't be watching at this point.

They advanced the plot in a big way the last episode.

[3sm1r]

6 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

If you didn't enjoy that episode then you don't like GoT because.....it was a good episode with some great dialog and great action scenes and it moved the plot along nicely.

I'm not sure I get it. It seems you're literally saying that you know better than me what I like and what I don't

[Lord Okra]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon survives because he is a super main character and it has its advantadges. This time, they just didn't write it as something belieavble.

Poor Benjen, I actually can buy that he knew that the wights were there, but the part when he decides to leave his horse made zero sense. 

He could have run with him until reaching The Wall. BTW he knew he would just kill some wights before dying. It was inevitable.

They just don't care about secondary characters. What they are doing with JOn, making him look as a stupid commander, but that, at the same time, has the right to resurrect, be elected LC, KITN, win Dany's heart with a couple if looks, be a Targaryen, etc it's so bad writing as well.

Benjen's scene was so poorly written in regards to respecting the character, same with Rickon.

Respecting the character?  Benjen's entire show existence is to serve to save two important Starks (main characters Bran and Jon).  That's his purpose in the overall plot of the show.  He's a minor character that got two cool rescue scenes and a couple of opportunities to dialog with Ned/Jon/Bran.  He isn't significant to the overall plot on the show.

And Jon doesn't seem like a stupid commander at all to me.  That's your view.  He's made some mistakes but overall he's shown to be a good leader of all living men.  A fair and just guy.  His battle plans weren't bad in previous battles.

Your main problem with the show as I see it is that.......it isn't the books.  Or, it was in the books but they cut it.  Or, I don't like that they changed this or that.

Oh well.  That's really not a show problem for anybody who didn't read the books.  The show is outstanding.  The plot is good.  The characters are great.  The acting is great.  The cinematography is great.  The story is great.  The dialog is outstanding.

You wanted Benjen to have a bigger role?  Ok.  Fair enough.  They cut him back to the bare min because there's only so much screen time.   They are just going for the main points and consolidating and eliminating what they can.  You don't have to like it but that doesn't make it bad writing.

The Dany/Jon scenes and love story have been great.  It has been great tv.  The looks have been all that has been needed.  Just the looks and gestures......quality acting by both Emilia and Kit.  They are killing it right now.

 

 

 

[Lord Okra]

3 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

I'm not sure I get it. It seems you're literally saying that you know better than me what I like and what I don't

No, I'm saying you don't appear to really like GoT that much these days.

[Maid So Fair]

32 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

He was going to survive.  They foreshadowed the crap out of it.

That doesn't make it a deus ex machina at all.  That he survived a stupid wight hunt?

He was rescued by dragons and his undead OP uncle.

It is like complaining about the fact that their are dragons and an undead OP uncle who hunts wights.

Look, that's the show.  The show can sling in dragons and magic to save characters because that's what the ENTIRE SHOW is about.  How can anybody be complaining about this kind of stuff?  You knew when he went North he'd be coming South again.....if you didn't then you aren't watching the same show I am.  Jon and Dany are the main heroes.

They aren't going anywhere before S8E5.

You can yack about plot armor all you want.  The heros don't die until the end.....if at all (I think they both live).  They'll both be alive in the books til the very end too.  Go cry to GRRM about plot armor.

The situation was always workable and didn't require any sort of unexpected resolution.  When they went north I was hoping to see dragons vs. wights.  I sure didn't expect them to be going up there in order for a simple we stole the wights....we're back....scene.  Everything was foreshadowed over the entire series. 

I did think we'd lose more characters but not Jon Snow.  And he made it back via some dragons and children of the forest good zombie magic.  Yay!

There was a huge dragons vs. walkers scene.......finally....we've only built to this point for 7 years.

Can't we just enjoy the dragons vs. walkers scene we finally got?

No huh?

:rollseyes:

 

 

This is exactly why it's a terrible decision to put a main character with a known plot armour in a situation that only derives any tension from the the audience taking the possibility they might not survive unscathed seriously. It's worse when you then flaunt it further by deliberately putting them in series of implausible scenarios. 

This is exactly why a character such as Jon needs s conflict that is (inter)personal. I can be on the edge of my seat wondering whether he will make the right decisions when struggling between his sense of duty, loyalty to his family and his hero complex. Put him in physical danger and it's got all the tension of watching a lvl 100 character wander into the lvl 1 zone. Worse, that character acts as a black hole sucking in the plot because you *know* they will live through it no matter how poor their decisions.

Also, do you even fantasy? Saying a wizard did it turns your plot unit a series of completely random events as the audience turns away. Magic still has to follow the rules of the universe. Not to mention that this is the show that used to pride themselves on the whole 'anybody can die' and their 'realistic' setting. Just because dragons exist doesn't mean anything goes. If you're breaking the laws established in your own universe you don't get to go ahead but zombies are unrealistic.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Respecting the character?  Benjen's entire show existence is to serve to save two important Starks (main characters Bran and Jon).  That's his purpose in the overall plot of the show.  He's a minor character that got two cool rescue scenes and a couple of opportunities to dialog with Ned/Jon/Bran.  He isn't significant to the overall plot on the show.

You wanted Benjen to have a bigger role?  Ok.  Fair enough.  They cut him back to the bare min because there's only so much screen time.   They are just going for the main points and consolidating and eliminating what they can.  You don't have to like it but that doesn't make it bad writing.

Yes, respecting how to say goodbye to the character, that is what good writing would do. I get that there's not much screen time for him, but it doesn't make sense that he saves Jon in the last minute, but then decides to basically die, when he could be fighting with Jon's side in the future. He could have riden with him. Sounds worst than Jack in Titanic, at least he was having hypothermia while deciding to stay in the water. And there was enough space in the horse...

Same with Rickon, we all would have loved to at least let him say some lines. He returned with no lines!

Quote

And Jon doesn't seem like a stupid commander at all to me.  That's your view.  He's made some mistakes but overall he's shown to be a good leader of all living men.  A fair and just guy.  His battle plans weren't bad in previous battles.

Being fair and good person is nnot the equivalent of good commander. He did a bad job in The BOTB and this season he has shown disrespect to his men that had just elected him(he could have visited WF AFTER knowing that Arya and Bran were there too!) and also the wight hunt mission shows he is not very smart (also Tyrion, who had the idea).

Quote

Your main problem with the show as I see it is that.......it isn't the books.  Or, it was in the books but they cut it.  Or, I don't like that they changed this or that.

Oh well.  That's really not a show problem for anybody who didn't read the books.  The show is outstanding.  The plot is good.  The characters are great.  The acting is great.  The cinematography is great.  The story is great.  The dialog is outstanding.

How could I compare it if that has not been written yet (and I don't think it will be written this way, wight hunt for Cersei...)

I actually like many things they have adapted, like the Riverrun's scenes (I liked 90% of it), and as a show viewer before reader (seasons 1-4 before reading) I liked it, especially season 3 and 1. So I liked some of the inventions.

But this season is really, really, badly written. I know many people who has not read the books and they are finding this seson, for the very first time, with lots of plotholes and bad writing. It's not coincidence.

I agree with: acting is great, cinematography and cgi great, though. 

Quote

The Dany/Jon scenes and love story have been great.  It has been great tv.  The looks have been all that has been needed.  Just the looks and gestures......quality acting by both Emilia and Kit.  They are killing it right now.

I strongly disagree with this. It's probably the worst part of the season along with the wight hunt (well, the wight hunt is worse).

With all respects to the people who like it, I think I have never seen a more contrived, artificial, badly acted badly written, and with so bad dialogue romance in my life in a TV show. It's even worse than Clois in Smallville, and that was sooooo forced. 

And this opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I don't particularly ship them. Just how it has been written.

[3sm1r]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

With all respects to the people who like it, I think I have never seen a more contrived, artificial, badly acted badly written, and with so bad dialogue romance in my life in a TV show. It's even worse than Clois in Smallville, and that was sooooo forced.

In movies there's something much worse: Star Wars Episode II Attack of the clones \:

[Maid So Fair]

35 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon survives because he is a super main character and it has its advantadges. This time, they just didn't write it as something belieavble.

Poor Benjen, I actually can buy that he knew that the wights were there, but the part when he decides to leave his horse made zero sense. 

He could have run with him until reaching The Wall. BTW he knew he would just kill some wights before dying. It was inevitable.

They just don't care about secondary characters. What they are doing with JOn, making him look as a stupid commander, but that, at the same time, has the right to resurrect, be elected LC, KITN, win Dany's heart with a couple if looks, be a Targaryen, etc it's so bad writing as well.

Benjen's scene was so poorly written in regards to respecting the character, same with Rickon.

Agreed that being a main protagonist has its advantages. I'd say being a good writer involves making sure the character is not put in situations where the plot armour is too noticeable.

I was actually surprised by how fee characters they killed off as I thought this was an attempt to weed out the cast. Jon was obviously going to live, the  Hound perhaps has a to play and I wasn't sure they would kill Gendry just after bringing him back but... Tormund? beric? Jorah??? I thought at least a few of those would die. I firmly believe the episode would have been much better if they did.

[Lord Okra]

3 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

In movies there's something much worse: Star Wars Episode II Attack of the clones \:

The list of worse romances and bad acting is too long to list.

Dany/Jon have been interesting all season long.  Their under the radar growing attraction has been obvious to me since the cave.  I've said she's falling for him and, to me, it was clear as day since the cave.

The looks and expressions have been really good and they've worked just like intended by the writers/actors.

[Lord Okra]

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, respecting how to say goodbye to the character, that is what good writing would do. I get that there's not much screen time for him, but it doesn't make sense that he saves Jon in the last minute, but then decides to basically die, when he could be fighting with Jon's side in the future. He could have riden with him. Sounds worst than Jack in Titanic, at least he was having hypothermia while deciding to stay in the water. And there was enough space in the horse...

Same with Rickon, we all would have loved to at least let him say some lines. He returned with no lines!

Being fair and good person is nnot the equivalent of good commander. He did a bad job in The BOTB and this season he has shown disrespect to his men that had just elected him(he could have visited WF AFTER knowing that Arya and Bran were there too!) and also the wight hunt mission shows he is not very smart (also Tyrion, who had the idea).

How could I compare it if that has not been written yet (and I don't think it will be written this way, wight hunt for Cersei...)

I actually like many things they have adapted, like the Riverrun's scenes (I liked 90% of it), and as a show viewer before reader (seasons 1-4 before reading) I liked it, especially season 3 and 1. So I liked some of the inventions.

But this season is really, really, badly written. I know many people who has not read the books and they are finding this seson, for the very first time, with lots of plotholes and bad writing. It's not coincidence.

I agree with: acting is great, cinematography and cgi great, though. 

I strongly disagree with this. It's probably the worst part of the season along with the wight hunt (well, the wight hunt is worse).

With all respects to the people who like it, I think I have never seen a more contrived, artificial, badly acted badly written, and with so bad dialogue romance in my life in a TV show. It's even worse than Clois in Smallville, and that was sooooo forced. 

And this opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I don't particularly ship them. Just how it has been written.

This season is not badly written at all.

It is action heavy and the pacing is rushed but it isn't badly written at all.  Is the best of the series?  No.

It is still high quality writing though.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Agreed that being a main protagonist has its advantages. I'd say being a good writer involves making sure the character is not put in situations where the plot armour is too noticeable.

I was actually surprised by how fee characters they killed off as I thought this was an attempt to weed out the cast. Jon was obviously going to live, the  Hound perhaps has a to play and I wasn't sure they would kill Gendry just after bringing him back but... Tormund? beric? Jorah??? I thought at least a few of those would die. I firmly believe the episode would have been much better if they did.

But they could not die because they have a role to play in the endgame, which basically confirms that the wight hunt was something they invented because creatively made sense to them.

In the Inside the Episode they are more concerned saying that they wanted the Polar Bear to happen.....and they said that Benjen was sad of his life (and then he basically sacrified himself), but they ignore his lines in s6 with Bran when he says he will fight in the future for the living. What has happened meanwhile to Benjen to decide to just kill 3 wights before them killing him?

We are talking about a Benjen who was concerned to fight for the living! If he had been sad of his existance, he would have at least given his horse to Bran.....

lots lots of plotholes..

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

This season is not badly written at all.

It is action heavy and the pacing is rushed but it isn't badly written at all.  Is the best of the series?  No.

It is still high quality writing though.

I have no issues with the pacing,considering I expected that it would be rushed with only 7 episodes (they just want to finish the story the sooner the better).

But the writing is bad, the main plot of the season: wight hunt for Cersei has no logic, and the main romance of the season is too forced to be believable.

[3sm1r]

3 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

This season is not badly written at all.

It is action heavy and the pacing is rushed but it isn't badly written at all.  Is the best of the series?  No.

It is still high quality writing though.

I'm very sorry my friend, but I disagree. I find it poorly written and also the love story didn't feel right. Not the worst in history, ok, but not good either. 

[plastic throne]

Just now, Lord Okra said:

This season is not badly written at all.

It is still high quality writing though.

I honestly wonder, no offense - but are you really this dense or do they pay you to write this stuff?

Literally... 42 pages people trying to explain, from ravens breaking the sound barrier, distances traveled to 'deux ex machina' definitions and its implementations in the show... And we're still at the beginning, you brushing aside all criticism (and definitions) just like that.

Seriously.

[Lord Okra]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I have no issues with the pacing,considering I expected that it would be rushed with only 7 episodes (they just want to finish the story the sooner the better).

But the writing is bad, the main plot of the season: wight hunt for Cersei has no logic, and the main romance of the season is too forced to be believable.

Except it wasn't a wight hut for Cersie on the show.  You could at least criticize the actual main plot of the season.

The wight hunt was for Dany/Jamie/Everybody but Cersie......

Throwing Cersie's name out there like anybody believes she can be trusted to do what's right is ignoring the actual on screen dialog by the characters just to come here and say......wight hunt for Cersie.

I've been over what the show claimed the wight hunt was about.  It wasn't about getting Cersie to be nice.  It is about getting the entire realm to believe the threat is real......including Dany......who was already willing to believe but now she doesn't give a flip about what Cersie does or doesn't do........that was the real main plot....

Real main plot of the season......

Jon/Dany coming together to face the AoD.

[Lord Okra]

11 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I honestly wonder, no offense - but are you really this dense or do they pay you to write this stuff?

Literally... 42 pages people trying to explain, from ravens breaking the sound barrier, distances traveled to 'deux ex machina' definitions and its implementations in the show... And we're still at the beginning, you brushing aside all criticism (and definitions) just like that.

Seriously.

You mean 42 pages of nitpicking criticism based on chains, time lapse, unladen airspeed of a raven, laden airspeed of a dragon, it was only 24 hours......

It has been 42 pages of petty complaining and the responses to the petty complaints.

I read on a different forum that the books claim the ravens in universe are faster than carrier pigeons.  Is that right?  Can that be confirmed.  I was told that in the books the ravens are faster that carrier pigeons but how much faster isn't established.

Hmmmm.

I said earlier that special messenger ravens could go at least as fast and further than carrier pigeons (have been recorded to make it 700+ miles in a day).

Hmmmmm.

You were saying something about the raven?

lol

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Except it wasn't a wight hut for Cersie on the show.  You could at least criticize the actual main plot of the season.

The wight hunt was for Dany/Jamie/Everybody but Cersie......

Throwing Cersie's name out there like anybody believes she can be trusted to do what's right is ignoring the actual on screen dialog by the characters just to come here and say......wight hunt for Cersie.

Nope, this is the actual dialogue


Cersei thinks the Army of the Dead is nothing but a story made up by wet nurses to frighten children.
What if we prove her wrong? I don't think she'll come see the dead at my invitation.
So bring the dead to her.
I thought that was what we were trying to avoid.
We don't have to bring the whole army.
Only one soldier.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I honestly wonder, no offense - but are you really this dense or do they pay you to write this stuff?

Literally... 42 pages people trying to explain, from ravens breaking the sound barrier, distances traveled to 'deux ex machina' definitions and its implementations in the show... And we're still at the beginning, you brushing aside all criticism (and definitions) just like that.

Seriously.

Many people think this. Normally, there is just one rant thread. This is a debate thread, criticsing something that the show did badly, which shows that GOT crossed a line in last episode, even for many people who love the show.

[3sm1r]

3 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

I said earlier that special messenger ravens could go at least as fast and further than carrier pigeons (have been recorded to make it 700+ miles in a day).

Hmmmmm.

You were saying something about the raven?

lol

Even the director said that with the timing they were "straining plausibility". You love the episode more than the director himself