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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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23 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Ah, that's makes sense from a production/budget standpoint I guess.

The thing about the ice, is that it would not be (much) stronger a few days after breaking then it was before breaking.  So it is either 1 of 2 things, in my mind at least.

1 - Incredible bad writing.

2 - [email protected] meant to convey that the NK had scouted that area, sent off a WW with a detachment of wights, that fortunately only one wight was not "connected" to that particular Other so that Jon could get his lone wight.  The NK then broke the ice himself and stopped his zombie, to give the heroes a false sense of hope while he waited for viserion.

As an aside, I know the show isn't as great as the books, but I try to enjoy them for what they are.

 

Totally agree the ice won't be stronger a few days after breaking than it was before.

NK has icing abilities. Giving him thawing abilities is euhm the opposite, no? What's next? The NK personally breathing fire and a non iced Drogon breathing ice? Regardless whether it's magic or simply production related, it's both bad writing, because the first goes against elemental logic, and the latter is just hoping for the best.

No worries. I tried and expected to enjoy the battle and hate WF plot. It ended up being the opposite.

Edited by sweetsunray

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18 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

At least someone in the show did the scouting thing:D

:lol: Scouting abilities depends entirely on the plotted result: Vale army has to save and surprise everyone => No sentries or scouts even near WF area. M7 need to catch a living wight => WW have scouting patrols. :lmao:

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LOL, but what exactly would the WW be scouting??  Have they not noticed the big ass wall of ice that has stopped them for 8? thousand years?  What are they looking for?  They are North of the wall, what's the purpose?  None but the plot demanded it.

Unless the crackpot idea that the NK created the entire set up to get himself a dragon is correct, then this is one more logic fail.

 

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, but what exactly would the WW be scouting??  Have they not noticed the big ass wall of ice that has stopped them for 8? thousand years?  What are they looking for?  They are North of the wall, what's the purpose?  None but the plot demanded it.

Unless the crackpot idea that the NK created the entire set up to get himself a dragon is correct, then this is one more logic fail.

 

NK to Blue 1: there is smoke over there, take your 12 reanimates and scout that smoke. Oh and take one of mine that won't die if you do, you know, just in case.

Blue 1 to Nk: Roger Roger.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, but what exactly would the WW be scouting??  Have they not noticed the big ass wall of ice that has stopped them for 8? thousand years?  What are they looking for?  They are North of the wall, what's the purpose?  None but the plot demanded it.

Unless the crackpot idea that the NK created the entire set up to get himself a dragon is correct, then this is one more logic fail.

 

I think they were sent on a punishment mission for their carelesness had the NK lose his teddy bear. NK sent the extra wight to spy on the WW who was so careless with Teddy Bear and to make sure he'd really look for it. :D

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It's worth a special note on plot contrivance.  That when the WW is killed ALL of the "scouting party" break up, except the convenient one for them to capture?  Alrighty then.

I can't believe people are even trying to defend this bad action flick level of plotting.

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1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned, as I didn't read all of the 480 posts of this thread, but I read an article yesterday that mentioned that the rock island that Jon and co. stayed on is the same one that the Night King was on when he scattered Bran's flock of ravens in episode 5.  I went back and rewatched it, and it did look similar to me.

That would go a good ways in explaining some of the inconsistencies.  If the Night King is able to see events in the future, then he possibly laid a trap for Jon and co., and Dany and her dragons.

This theory does not hold any water. Once Gendry Maratheon reached Eastwatch and the raven was sent, there was no need to keep the M7 alive. He could have frozen the lake and captured them immediately, and the dragons would still be coming. 

1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

We simply don't know why the WW were waiting there.

It appears they were waiting there for the ice to freeze back over.  I say this because once they discovered that the lake had refrozen to a point that the wights could attack across it in mass.....they attacked.

So the obvious answer is they were waiting on the water to freeze over to a point it could hold a mass of wights.

But, maybe we come to find out they were waiting on the dragons in a future episode....also possible.

So an ICE DEMON can not freeze a lake and has to patiently wait for it to do it naturally? I thought the show had established the WW´s brought the cold with them, and it is safe to assume that the leader, who happens to be a 8000 old magical creature, should have some magical powers, specially when a girl who spends just two years training with the Faceless Men can perfectly impersonate a Lord at his home home for two weeks.

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

Okay.  Yeah, it explains away a lot for me personally.  If that is what D&D were going for, it could explain the javelins, chains, and timeframe.

Also, in a ep. from an earlier season the Night King touches the ground and it looks like the ground is cracking and breaking up.  In the earlier shot when the NK scatters the ravens, his entire army is on the lake around him yet the ice holds.  It's possible, as you said, that maybe he wanted them stranded there for days.

It would lend some evidence into the NK being a greenseer/skinchanger (maybe the strongest that has ever lived) and hence why the CotF could not control him.

So is the NK extremely powerful or completely useless? I thinks it depends on the desired outcome on the scene, not on any well thought out plan regarding his skills.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The weak ice scene with the wights dropping into the broken ice makes it look as if they drop straight to the bottom. But then Tormund is dragged by his feet towards a fishing hole by wights who pop up and bob up out of nowhere. Their swimming abilities are relative to the need of the scene's intent. We have to keep 1000s of wights from swarming the M7 so, we put them on an ice lake that's thin and wights can't cross. We can't have Dany swooping in to save them without them even having to fight the wights, so the ice lake freezes over again, but "naturally" not because the NK uses his icing trick. We can't have a fight with wights without giving a long scene of someone nearly dying, and they having swimming wights. Dragons melt the ice lake with their fire, but next shot it's solid again with wights coming to delay Jon's departure and missing his dragonride, and no dragon blasts the NK,not even accidentally (well that's very contained dragonfire). NK must get a dragon but must have a javelin for that, which he conveniently didn't use to kill the M7 stuck on the island, but never stopped the wights from trying to kill them once the lake had frozen over again. And there's absolutely no reason for the NK not going for Drogon first. The "but Viserion was breathing flames" argument is invalid, because we see Drogon breathing fire as well, while everyone's getting on it. If you're the NK would you go for the dragon everybody else is trying to escape with first or the one that's just flying around? You've got the biggest dragon + Kit + Dany and possibly every other hero who's gonna ruin his attempt at conquering humanity Westeros. There's no reconciling it, not even with "greenseer".

Yes, they would have needed to break the ice, drop the chains and someone had to put the chains around poor Viserion, and do a thorough job of it, to be able to pull it out. Could have been wights trapped at the bottom forever until their WW is killed or scuba WW. The whole image was wrong: big ass iron chains + ice breaking apart as if there hadn't been a big ass hole in the ice to begin with to get those chains in and around Viserion. To me that's like doing a scene in space and have environmental sound (duh, just no!) in what is vacuum.

You could have not described D&D writing process better.

30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

:lol: Scouting abilities depends entirely on the plotted result: Vale army has to save and surprise everyone => No sentries or scouts even near WF area. M7 need to catch a living wight => WW have scouting patrols. :lmao:

Scouting abilities, river depths, ravens flight speed, distance between Eastwatch and Dragonstone, characters´motivations, and so many other... I am sorry, but anyone trying to defend the plot is just being extremely acritical. If you just want to watch it and never think about the plot holes, it is fine, but do not try do say they do not exist.

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18 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

As far as the ice lake....it was pretty convenient.  But, how else could they had survived?   

They could have blocked themselves into a cave. Or the wight screech/horde approaching could have caused a mini avalanche that trapped them in a small valley.

That would have solved the entire issue, because you also could have shown the wights working for "days" to dig through.

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10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I can see their need to separate from Gendry and wanting to choose a spot to make a stand against whatever's coming: since they're carrying a wight resisting his wight-napping and Jon doesn't want to lose it. They can't hope to outrun and turn their back on the enemy. But you don't choose it on unknown terrain, but terrain you just spied from and walked through. 

And clearly they had not yet been at the ice lake, or it wouldn't have taken them by surprise they were walking on "thin ice" right there.

Was a cool spot though: props for the set makers. Thumbs up on the location, but again makes no sense.

Gotta  agree.

And I love the term "wight-napping."

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27 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

They could have blocked themselves into a cave. Or the wight screech/horde approaching could have caused a mini avalanche that trapped them in a small valley.

That would have solved the entire issue, because you also could have shown the wights working for "days" to dig through.

So they were going to run around until they found a cave (or better yet, one just pops up) while being run down by wights....then stop for 4 hours to secure the entrance and the wights were going to.....wait?????

That'd have been far worse than the lake just appearing in front of them.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

So they were going to run around until they found a cave (or better yet, one just pops up) while being run down by wights....then stop for 4 hours to secure the entrance and the wights were going to.....wait?????

That'd have been far worse than the lake just appearing in front of them.

So they were going to run around until they found a like with an island in the middle (or better yet one just pops up)....

I don't really see the difference. It's easy to imagine a scene where the snow gives out under them and they fall into a deep valley/ canyon/mouth of a cave, and the snow barricades them in behind them. There are a thousand ways this could have been executed. Something similar to the entrance to the mines of Moria for example. Replace the squid monster with an undead Giant and the cave in with a snow in.

Quote

the wights were going to.....wait?????'

No, I specifically said, they'd spend the time digging instead of... waiting like they did in the actual episode. 

Edited by iprayiam

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10 hours ago, darmody said:

You've touched upon what I referred to in another thread as this episode's Fulcrum of Stupidity. There's absolutely no reason why the Snowicide Squad shouldn't run back toward the Wall along with Gendry. The only explanation I can think of for them running the other way is Jon read the script. 

There's no indication they knew the lake was there. They seem surprised when the ice starts cracking beneath them. Without thin ice, why would the rock be any use at all? Even with thin ice, what guarantee was there that the zombies would be stuck a safe distance from the rock? None. 

We must assume Jon intended to either fend off the Army of the Dead--which is a stretch even for someone who knows nothing--or to find some other place to wait it out. A competent writer would have them serve as a diversion while Gendry took the zombie back to Eastwatch. Failing that, have Tormund say before Gendry departs, "Look, there's a cave over there!" Jon tells Gendry to run for the Wall while they take refuge. They don't find the lake until after they get driven out of the cave shortly before Dany shows up. (That solves the teleportation issues, too.)

I realize they've already shown a merry band getting driven out of a cave-type structure by the Night King, but I'm taking over the story in the middle of the white hunt. Cut me some slack. 

So, sounds like I shouldn't feel so bad about being baffled by that sequence of events,and wondering how it made any sense.

Glad to hear it.

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26 minutes ago, Cron said:

Gotta  agree.

And I love the term "wight-napping."

Well those wights sure seemed to try and nap their brother back, several times. Wights have feelings and cameradery. Imagine all the bro-talk they had for years. Oh, and they don't mind the women aren't alive :D

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12 hours ago, darmody said:

I realize they've already shown a merry band getting driven out of a cave-type structure by the Night King, but I'm taking over the story in the middle of the white hunt. Cut me some slack. 

Funny you say that, because watching the episode live, when Jon told Dany to go without him, I thought, "Fly, you fools!"

Edited by Illiterati

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The issue that I have a problem with is the raven flying from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. Given the distance between the two the flight time would be at least a day or more, and all we see is a night go by while Jon and co wait on the rock. If more time passes, then I could see the raven making it in time and Dany being able to save them.

Other than that, the whole adventure beyond the wall makes sense. I may be in the minority of the Wight hunt making sense. Tyrion is right in that to convince people of the threat you either bring them to the AoD or bring the AoD to them. We know from Sam's conversation with the Maesters that they don't believe the threat is real, and likewise the majority of the realm doesn't either, including Cersei calling stuff beyond the wall grumpkins and snarks. It has been mentioned that Dany could've flown them up via dragon, but at that point she had no reason to believe them or risk her dragons health searching the cold north for hours or days. I do think that when Gendry sent word he would have indicated a general location for her to search.

The wight hunt accomplished several plot points for the war to come. It established the WW and Wight connection, we saw how effective dragon glass is for fighting them (everyone without flaming swords and valyrian steel had dragon glass weapons), the NK got his Wight dragon as was seen in season 7 promos, the war became personal for Dany with the death of one of her children, and we saw the relationship between Jon and Dany deepen and evolve.

I do think that the NK set a trap for the heroes in order to get his dragon. It's just too convenient that 1 Wight remained after Jon kills the WW. The wight then screams in order to alert and summon the NK and his reinforcements. Given the scenes of the NK interacting and marking Bran and shutting down his control of ravens when scoping out the army, I think that the NK possesses similar powers to Bran. If so, then he could've foreseen the expedition and rescue via dragon. 

 

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11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Matter of opinion. For me it is important that the show at least stay grounded in some form of reality. Yes it has dragons and zombies but to all intents and purposes it follows the same laws of physics as our world.

So birds can't fly enormous distances in superhuman times, men can't run in arctic conditions as if they are doing a marathon, people can't survive in arctic conditions without shelter, they can't fight at full capacity afterwards either.

On their own maybe you could forgive these brain farts but when you add them all up it's really just exposing a huge laziness in the writing. I can't forgive that as easily as I have been able to do throughout this season 

I second your opinion. I work in the Arctic. It's fricking frustrating to work up there during the winter even with all the suits you have. Also the problem which bothers me is that, how comfortable the dragons were North of the wall, after a long effing journey, thn o battle with freezing temperatures. Well, maybe we can let it pass as "fantasy". As far as Gendry is concerned, the same problem arises as I mentioned before. People like Tormund are born and raised in the North. Gendry isn't. He is in no condition to run the miles. As far as the ravens are concerned, I was laughing, with Monty Python's holy grail "swallow" skit running through my head. Yes, it is definitely laziness in the part of the writers. And we are left here patching up the plot holes. 

Edited by IceIceBaby

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3 hours ago, iprayiam said:

So they were going to run around until they found a like with an island in the middle (or better yet one just pops up)....

I don't really see the difference. It's easy to imagine a scene where the snow gives out under them and they fall into a deep valley/ canyon/mouth of a cave, and the snow barricades them in behind them. There are a thousand ways this could have been executed. Something similar to the entrance to the mines of Moria for example. Replace the squid monster with an undead Giant and the cave in with a snow in.

No, I specifically said, they'd spend the time digging instead of... waiting like they did in the actual episode. 

They lucked into the lake.

If they had lucked into a cave they would have had to stop to barricade the entrance.  There was no time for any barricading of anything.

But let's just say they do run up into a cave that appeared in their path (luckily like the lake).......and they somehow get to build a barricade......now they are stuck in a cave.  How does Dany see them from the air?  They are underground in a cave.

What are they waiting for in the cave?  Dany can't swoop down and grab them out of a cave even if she could find them.

There's no out.

They'd just be trapped in a cave with no way to get out.

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