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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

@lancerman is wrong, those are both cases of deux ex machina.

The fact that Benjin has no way of knowing that Jon is there, and in trouble, and just happens to show up at the right place and time to save him is a Deus ex machina.

The fact that there just happens to be a lake with an island, right at the spot and time that the heroes need it to be to avoid certain death, with implausibly thin ice, is a deux ex machina.

Deus ex machina (Latin: [ˈdeʊs ɛks ˈmaː.kʰɪ.naː]: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəsɛks ˈmækɪnə/;[1] plural: dei ex machina) is a Latin calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning 'god from the machine'.[2] The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device.

But in Beyond the Wall, there isn't really any new event, character, ability, or object. Unless you count Uncle Ben knowing Jon was in trouble. But how did he know Bran was in trouble? He's been established as having vague powers, and it's bad form for the show to leave them unexplained. They were pre-existing, however. 

The rest of the episode was a series of highly improbable if not impossible things using known characters, objects, and abilities. We already know about, for instance, zombies having trouble with water and the existence of ravens and dragons. Those aren't new. 

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6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

The hoodie thing is definitely something I forgive the show for.  You need to be able to see characters' faces and know who is who- you couldn't have these guys wearing hats and stuff that obscures their faces.

That's a modern trope. Check out a John Wayne movie and get back to me on needing to see faces. 

Or, if you want to be contemporary, check out Justified. That guy knew how to wear a hat. 

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5 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's a modern trope. Check out a John Wayne movie and get back to me on needing to see faces. 

Or, if you want to be contemporary, check out Justified. That guy knew how to wear a hat. 

Always thought it was a bit weird that nobody wore a hat north of the wall. Or anywhere that I can recall. Historically that's not accurate (assuming a time period loosely based on 1150-1400 or so), and most importantly, that's just not practical. 

FYI, people, and I mean the majority of people, wore hoods in the 12th to 15th century. Men and women. 

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1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Maybe you should learn to not to vigorously argue a point by supplying a definition where you pick and choose what key elements of the definition you want to say matter. 

I'm not picking and choosing, I already told you that I agree with the interpretation of "new" that Dolorous Gabe provided.

I'll ask for the third time, where in the definition does it support what you claim? 

It doesn't, that's why you're ignoring the request, and resorting to ad hominem attacks.

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Maybe then you wouldn't get sensitive when you get called out on either not understanding the definition or being misleading so you can attempt to win this argument. At this point it's one or the other and there is no getting around it. 

Yes, I'm so broken up over here about your ignorant, selective argument. I'm almost in tears. :crying: oh, poor ol' sensitive me.

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Sorry there's really no other way to say it. Either you don't know what a deus ex machina is or you do and you are ignoring part of what makes it up. You would have been perfectly served dropping it and saying you didn't like all the coincidences. But now here we are because you are too proud to admit you didn't know what it meant. 

Oh, I know what it means. You would be right if we were discussing the original, archaic meaning. You do realize that in language, words and terms tend to evolve, and take on broader meanings over time? In modern language, the use of deus ex machina is not bound to the criteria that you propose. I've already addressed this, but you're to arrogant to actually read and acknowledge the points that someone is addressing you with. And you're to busy trying to belittle others for criticizing a show that you have a differing opinion of, and apparently, are too sensitive to accept the fact that these people don't like, and criticize something that you do like.

If you provide something to back up your claim, I'll gladly admit that I'm wrong, but so far, all you've done is state that something is so, because you say it is. Sorry, but I'm not convinced by that.

Believe me, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong, and in fact, will admit right now, that I'm am probably one of the least educated members of this forum in the fields that are largely discussed here. If someone provides a legitimate argument against what I believe, I will use it as a means to learn and better my knowledge. 

Edited by Darkstream

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4 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Why then is the T-Rex at the end of Jurassic Park often listed as a classic example of deus ex machina?

It shouldn't be. 

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3 hours ago, lancerman said:

Because until that very moment the T-Rex showed no reason or ability to sympathize with the plight of humans and save them and that entire capability came at the very time it was needed most with no reason to believe it was even a fraction of a possibility. 

Benjen lives North of the Wall and fights WW's and helped a relative who was North of the Wall and fighting WW's. 

Of course, the T-rex isn't there to save humans. He's there to eat meat. It's the humans' good fortune that the raptors and T-rex distract eachother long enough for them to escape. 

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In the context of characters in the episode Benjens arrival is a new character to solve the impending doom of Jon. In the context of the show as a whole we've already seen Benjen rescue Bran in the same type of situation as a result of the 3ER. So there is nothing new about that, coincidental and convenient sure, which leads to the question of how was he able to be there in time. Could Bran as the 3ER be responsible? Perhaps. 

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1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Completely missing the point. Until the very moment where the tide of the battle is turned and King's Landing is saved, there was no knowledge that the Tyrell's had joined Tywin and added their strength to the Lannister's to win the battle. 

It was a completely knew and unexpected development that resolved the conflict. By the way you choose to incorrectly apply the definition to the Benjen case it is a deus ex machina. 

The show set up the Lannister/Tyrell alliance episodes earlier, when Littlefinger went to Harrenhal to discuss it with Tywin. Littlefinger negotiated with the Tyrells when he was in Renly Baratheon's camp, shortly after the shadowbaby assassination.

You remember, back when the show had a plot that made sense. 

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8 hours ago, lancerman said:

That's still not a deus ex machina. Benjen is close but we know he exists and is connected to the wights somehow. The Dany stuff is not.

Deus ex machina is by definition a plot development that gets the characters out of danger that were never introduced or alluded to until that moment and broke the story's convention. 

An island being in a lake is not a deus ex machina. 

The main characters surviving until the big save is not deus ex machina.

The thin ice that was shown before it was used to keep the wights away is mot a deus ex machina. It would be if they ran to the island and then the wights were stopped by this ice that we didn't know existed. But that didn't happen. The characters ran to the ice noticed it was thin, kept running, then the legions of dead characters were too heavy to be supported. 

The dragons that we knew were coming are not a deus ex machina 

the character we know that lives beyond the wall showing up is not a deus ex machina

Its a coincidence and probably a heavy contrivance. 

That's an extremely narrow definition that even completely ignored the history of the term. The fact that something is known to exist in the universe (and not all of these are) does not prevent it from being a Deus ex machina. After all, Greek gods were very much known to exist in the universe, yet randomly getting their help is still DEM.

There was never a mention of a magical lake with just the right features before they randomly stumbled on it. The writers admit they only put it there because of writing themselves into a corner. It solves an unsolvable problem for the protagonists. DEM

The dragons themselves are not DEM - as you say they behave exactly as dragons have in the past, which is why I did not list it. What *is* DEM is the characters suddenly being able to contact Dany and her bring her Dragons over at the speed of Skype not raven.

Benjen most definitely is DEM. There's absolutely no reason to believe he would show up in these parts, and he shows up at *exactly* the right moment. If he came 5min late or early it would break the plot. 

However, regardless of your preferred classification, there is no denying that this entire plotline is one giant contrivance and plothole. Literally no plot development that happens once they go past the gate at Eastwatch holds up to the slightest scrutiny. It's also all completely unearned - the protagonists basically don't do anything but get ambushed and then rescued by the writers in a series of unexpected events. There's no character growth and very little character motivation and none of the solutions to their problems are a result of anything they actually did. 

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18 hours ago, Khorkalba said:

The decline started far earlier than season 6.

Season 3 was an abomination of bad writing and deviations from the books.

No way! Season 3 was good... Plus the books are the books... The show is something different... It is based on the books... Based on... So it can be different... The main ideas are the same...

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16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I know. I just think it was writing convenience to hae the ice breka because D&D admitted in the inside-the-episode they wanted the NK to have a dragon and Dany to lose one, get some deadly adventure going without killing them, except for the spares they could do away with. They had to get them in a confrontation where the wights are halted by a barrier, and have time pass enough to fudge with Dany saving them. The WWs and NKs can freeze stuff, but here they didn't, because then D&D don't have a stand-off. It's got nothing to do with some super plan by the NK. If the NK's a greenseer who can see into the future (something Bran hasn't been shown to do) and could see which dragon he'd be able to take down, then he also knows he's gonna lose. So, then that means he's trying to change the future, and thus no reason for him to get all of them killed once Gendry's sent running. The whole NK-set-up-trap-because-he-knows-hes-getting-a-dragon is full of foreknowledge paradoxes,and doesn't explain him not freezing the lake to kill them, and throwing a spear at Viserion before Drogon.

 

Ok. I take your point. But anyways I don't think D&D would tell us straight away "It was a plan! The NK decided he wanted a dragon ..." Maybe I'm just overthinking...

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Just now, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Ok. I take your point. But anyways I don't think D&D would tell us straight away "It was a plan! The NK decided he wanted a dragon ..." Maybe I'm just overthinking...

Still, think about it for a second. Why does the NK need them alive if he wants the dragon? It is not like Danny is a green seer and knows whether or not Jon and the company is alive there. He could very well just kill and turn them all and put a trap for her there on the 'island'.

Would make far more sense than this.

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17 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

Correct. But in this way Dany would have implicitly acknowledged that the mission was dumb from the beginning. 

The easiest fix to avoid this is to portray Dany as still having some skepticism of the existence of this army, the scale of it, the actual threat, etc etc.  Then you have Jorah show up from the Citadel AFTER Jon and company leave, not before.  Jorah tells Dany he was healed by a maester in training from the Nights Watch, who told him there is a massive army of the dead descending upon Westeros and that the only way to kill them is to use weapons made of dragonglass or valyrian steel.  

This confirms to Dany all of what Jon said to her and is delivered by a source she knows and trusts (at least she trusts now).  You then show a quick cut to Dany looking worriedly at Tyrion, and a cut to Tyrion looking worriedly back at Dany, and have Dany tell Tyrion something like "i've just sent those men to their deaths, haven't I?"

Then you show a quick scene of her racing to her dragons while Tyrion is trying to convince her to stay, followed by her giving the usual "i'm no longer listening to what you have to say, Tyrion" type attitude, and whisk her off to north of the wall.  

Set it up so she arrives after Jon and company make contact with the dead army, and have them all running frantically away from the dead  but losing ground and losing redshirts as they go.  then Boom, she appears, roasts hundreds of them to save the day.  Have someone with Jon snap and bag a wight and throw it onto Drogon.  Have the Night King take out Viserion as they are all climbing onto Drogon. AND if you absolutely have to, invent the same peril for Jon and have Benjen come save him after Dany and company take off.

Night King get his dragon, Dany gets her proof, company gets a wight, Jon gets saved by Benjen...all of the same elements, none of the ridiculous aspects. you can have the scene with Jon and Jorah talking about Longclaw either on the boat ride back (if you have Jorah accompany Dany on the rescue mission) or back at Dragonstone (i.e. when they meet the first time, which is exactly when that should have happened)

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15 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Why?  Because Jon KNOWS he must convince as many as he can.

He finally knows something...

 

15 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

If he can't convince Cersie.....maybe he can convince Jamie......or whoever else is still left in some form of leadership.

Jamie can't even convince himself ... He can't convince himself that He is the Kingslayer and he has to be the Queenslayer now... Who would he convince? 

 

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon is really stupid in the show, absolutely.  He's a raving, suicidal madman who no one should follow.

since Season 1... Even in the books he is crazy!  Better have him than Robb ... Robb was strategic but also stupid... 

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4 minutes ago, Yoren Luck said:

The easiest fix to avoid this is to portray Dany as still having some skepticism of the existence of this army, the scale of it, the actual threat, etc etc.  Then you have Jorah show up from the Citadel AFTER Jon and company leave, not before.  Jorah tells Dany he was healed by a maester in training from the Nights Watch, who told him there is a massive army of the dead descending upon Westeros and that the only way to kill them is to use weapons made of dragonglass or valyrian steel.  

This confirms to Dany all of what Jon said to her and is delivered by a source she knows and trusts (at least she trusts now).  You then show a quick cut to Dany looking worriedly at Tyrion, and a cut to Tyrion looking worriedly back at Dany, and have Dany tell Tyrion something like "i've just sent those men to their deaths, haven't I?"

Then you show a quick scene of her racing to her dragons while Tyrion is trying to convince her to stay, followed by her giving the usual "i'm no longer listening to what you have to say, Tyrion" type attitude, and whisk her off to north of the wall.  

Set it up so she arrives after Jon and company make contact with the dead army, and have them all running frantically away from the dead  but losing ground and losing redshirts as they go.  then Boom, she appears, roasts hundreds of them to save the day.  Have someone with Jon snap and bag a wight and throw it onto Drogon.  Have the Night King take out Viserion as they are all climbing onto Drogon. AND if you absolutely have to, invent the same peril for Jon and have Benjen come save him after Dany and company take off.

Night King get his dragon, Dany gets her proof, company gets a wight, Jon gets saved by Benjen...all of the same elements, none of the ridiculous aspects. you can have the scene with Jon and Jorah talking about Longclaw either on the boat ride back (if you have Jorah accompany Dany on the rescue mission) or back at Dragonstone (i.e. when they meet the first time, which is exactly when that should have happened)

Much better, I would buy it more easily, but there are still some problems:
1) why should she be convinced by Jorah's story if she wasn't convinced by Jon's? Jon should actually be considered a more reliable source than Samwell, at least on the point of view of Dany.
2) the relationship between Dany and Jon looks weaker in your version: she doesn't believe him and she let him go for a bad reason.
 

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27 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Still, think about it for a second. Why does the NK need them alive if he wants the dragon? It is not like Danny is a green seer and knows whether or not Jon and the company is alive there. He could very well just kill and turn them all and put a trap for her there on the 'island'.

Would make far more sense than this.

SO the Night King, instead of killing Jon and make his war far easier, he keeps him alive so it will be a fair combat? mmmh... 

Or is he in Love with Jon? ^_^

Alliser to the NK : "You and your lover Jon Snow..."

But, yeah you might be right...

One more question... Why did they show us what was written on the letter Jon recieved? unless they wanted us to talk about it... After reading it, Jon said "I didn't know Arya was still alive, I didn't know Bran was still alive..." This is a good news... Right? But before Jon read it, Tyrion asked to Varys "What does it say?" reffering to the message... Lord Varys said "Nothing good"... 

I tried to read what was on the letter... And Bran actually told Jon that he saw the NK and the army of the dead marching on the wall, near Eastwatch... That's why Jon went to Eastwatch instead of Castleblack...  OK... I don't even know where this is going to take me... I will just stop here... OK. D&D wanted the NK to have a dragon... OK. Done!<_<

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17 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

The show does acknowledge it is a stupid idea repeatedly.

How many on screen conversations do we have to ignore in order to say the characters don't think it is stupid?  A half dozen or so?

This post is like many others.....it basically ignores half of what has been presented on screen in order to complain about the show.

7 guys didn't go.  How many went?  Not 7.  I guess we just ignore that it was twice that.

Just like we ignore every other character calling it stupid.  Thormund calls it stupid a half dozen times.  They even explain why they are doing the stupid mission to him.....over the two stupid Queens that they need.  Even Dany calls it stupid.  She has a whole conversation about how these heros out stupid each other.....

 

I counted 8 'stupid' in your post...B) 

That was very stupid! 

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17 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

No.  Grabbing a wight with an expectation that Cersei, who has murdered/backstabbed everyone in her life who crossed her including her own brother, with an expectation of anything but more backstabbing and betrayal is what is stupid.

Tyrion, who has seen his sister's machinations up close and personal should be screaming from the rooftops that she will never commit her forces to fight the army of the dead, she will use them against her human enemies because that's how she rolls.

So, that he supports and advances this plan makes it twice as stupid.  

And this brings us back to the central stupidity of the season, of why, other than plot reasons, Dany did not just roll into KL, and demand they send out the queen and offer amnesty to everyone else.  She can have Drogon burn down a couple of gates for good measure.  And, voila, Cersei is out before the sun goes down.

But this is how poor storytelling works, it compounds stupidity on top of stupidity......which is why this particular plotline has gotten so much more criticism than the other previous stupid plots.  It finally is one wafer of stupidity too many.

The show even hinted at this in this season's episode 2 (or 3?) when Cersei gets the sand snakes via Euron.  Euron tells Jaime he loves the praise of the crowd and Jaime says something like they can turn on you any moment.  I forget the exact lines but they definitely dropped a major hint that the people of Kings Landing are powerful enough (in mob form) to overthrow any ruler.  If Dany rolled up in a dragon, blew a little fire at the gate to the Red Keep, and said the westeros equivalent to "kill the masters" that city would have been hers in an hour.

They could have even designed a side plot with Davos/Varys/Tyrion working to smuggle weapons in to arm the people of Flea Bottom, and had Gendry involved as well (dude does make weapons after all).

Every single aspect of Dany's "conquest" feels contrived when you acknowledge just how superior her forces are compared to the rest of Westeros, and the nuclear option that having three dragons actually means.

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3 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Much better, I would buy it more easily, but there are still some problems:
1) why should she be convinced by Jorah's story if she wasn't convinced by Jon's? Jon should actually be considered a more reliable source than Samwell, at least on the point of view of Dany.
2) the relationship between Dany and Jon looks weaker in your version: she doesn't believe him and she let him go for a bad reason.
 

I really liked the suggestion @Yoren Luck came up with. My take on your questions would be:

1) I think she would be more inclined to believe it from Jorah since it would be a second person telling her of the threat. So far, it was only Jon, so she was putting all her eggs in his basket. Oh, and some drawings inside a cave. Jorah is a man she knows well. She would look at it as more than just a coincidence if he were to arrive and tell her the exact same things Jon had been telling her, even if it came from Samwell, a brother of the Night's Watch that she doesn't know.

2) Is the main issue. It would look like she was just allowing him to go off on this mission of folly that she really didn't believe in. Kind of like her saying, 'Go on, Jon. Knock yourself out.' It would also mean that the scenes when she looked distressed at the idea of Jon setting off to capture a wight would have to be changed, as she'd hardly be distressed and worried about his safety if she didn't fully believe there was a threat. 

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