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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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18 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

I lost faith in the writers when Baelish delivered Sansa into the hands of the Boltons.  That made zero sense.  Call me an optimist for overlooking the silly scenes that came before that.

In the end, The army of Vale came to win the BoB... So she could have never entered that house it would have been the same... She would have heard something about Jon being dead... And then "Jon is fighting to take WF back..." Oh Let's join the fray! Don't know...

Maybe she was important next to Jon in order to convince him to march to WF... But apart from that, he never listenned to her... So what was the point? 

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Just now, Yoren Luck said:

The show even hinted at this in this season's episode 2 (or 3?) when Cersei gets the sand snakes via Euron.  Euron tells Jaime he loves the praise of the crowd and Jaime says something like they can turn on you any moment.  I forget the exact lines but they definitely dropped a major hint that the people of Kings Landing are powerful enough (in mob form) to overthrow any ruler.  If Dany rolled up in a dragon, blew a little fire at the gate to the Red Keep, and said the westeros equivalent to "kill the masters" that city would have been hers in an hour.

They could have even designed a side plot with Davos/Varys/Tyrion working to smuggle weapons in to arm the people of Flea Bottom, and had Gendry involved as well (dude does make weapons after all).

Every single aspect of Dany's "conquest" feels contrived when you acknowledge just how superior her forces are compared to the rest of Westeros, and the nuclear option that having three dragons actually means.

Precisely. Look at how the smallfolk turned on Joffrey at the thought of him being born of incest. Imagine how they really should feel about Cersei, considering what she did in the Sept of Baelor. They should be at the red keep with pitchforks daily.

Daenerys' conquest, in theory, should be so easy. The people of KL should be desperate to be rid of Cersei. All Daenerys needs to do is turn up with her dragons and the whole city will be delighted. Hell, she wouldn't even have to kill anyone.

How Cersei has survived this long, I do not know. Other than the fact the producers seem to love Lena Headey. She is a great actress and plays Cersei tremendously well. But Stephan Dillane was brilliant as Stannis Baratheon and they still killed him off.

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17 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

You are still conveniently leaving out the actual reason they went to the wall to grab a wight......to convince the entire realm (esp Dany) that the IT squabble is just a distraction from the real issue.

As far as Tryion......it isn't even to convince Cersie.......this is just a steady stream of posters ignoring what actually was said and happened on screen.  Tyrion wants to convince JAMIE so that he can control Cersie.  Nobody....and I mean NOBODY....in show.....thinks they can trust Cersie but they do need somebody to hold her in check and so they are trying to convince JAMIE.

But let us just ignore that this meeting is for the ENTIRE REALM leadership and to convince the ENTIRE SOUTH that they need to come together with Jon.....and now finally Dany.....since she was convinced by the "stupid" mission......cause, you know....she saw.....

Like I said, you have to ignore half the actual on screen footage and conversations to make these asinine complaints.

If this was the case, they would have taken the wight to the Citadel and had the Archmaester send ravens to every castle and keep in the realm.  Samwell even mentions that the maesters have this authority, and if they got on board with acknowledging the threat, everyone in Westeros would follow suit.

Also, (and i feel like I have summarized this already in several threads) there is no "rest of the realm" in this story anymore.  There are the kingdoms and forces currently aligned with Dany/Jon/Sansa, and there is the Lannisters.  Every other major region/kingdom/place worth mentioning has been eliminated from the story BEFORE the wight hunt even took place...Unless you think Dorne is going to send an envoy to this council at Kings Landing, which I think is highly doubtful considering what happened the last time they sent an envoy to Kings Landing.  Dorne is quite literally the only region that has not either had its army wiped out, or already committed its army to one of the two sides in play.  Everywhere else should be devoid of able-bodied fighters and half the continent has already been ravaged by the previous wars/battles.

Edit: technically they actually already did commit their army to Dany, but the loss of leadership is what has removed them from the story

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16 hours ago, El Guapo said:

They didn't ask him to survive in the North they just asked him to run back to Eastwatch.  Did you want them to like hold a race to decide who was the fastest among them? Or is so hard to believe that they deemed him the fastest because happened to be the youngest of the group and looked be in great physical shape.

Of all the criticisms I've felt and read this past episode, the decision to send Gendry as the runner instead of someone else has the least amount of credibility (IMO).  I agree that Jon and everyone else undoubtedly would have seen him as having the best endurance for running given his age and shape.  I mean, Jon can't abandon the men, Jorah is an older guy, the Hound is an older guy and has been ravaged by battle, Beric and Thoros are older and Thoros is a drunk and Beric is virtually undead himself.  Tormund may have been the most logical choice given he is from the north and is tough as nails, but why would Jon send his BFF and a great warrior in Tormund away from the battle when he could send Gendry, who's fighting abilities are unknown to Jon.  They can't send away redshirts because then they don't have redshirts to kill in the battle for the sake of suspense.

This actually made sense in-story.  It was everything else that didn't.

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16 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

He is the hero.

Raving, suicidal madman......

Why do you watch a show where you hate everything about the lead characters and everything about the plot and story?

And you call him stupid?

ha ha

Daenerys said something about that on the sixth episode when she was chatting with her Hand... 

Dany : Do you know what I like about you?

Tyrion : I honestly don't

Dany : You are not a hero...

Tyrion : Oh? (...)

Daenerys : Heroes do stupid things and they die (foreshadowing upcoming Jon's death? After defeating the threat beyond the wall, he will die?)... Drogo, Jorah, Daario. Even this... Jon Snow !They all try to outdo each other... Who can do the stupidest bravest thing...

So even characters said that Jon was doing stupid things... Leaving WF... Sansa told him it was dangerous... Suicide! Going beyond the wall... It is stupid! Even Dany said that a hundred times... So he is stupid... Actually, he is not stupid... Being the hero makes him do stupid things... Sadly... 

Hero's duty

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The most unrealistic thing is not about how fast but how long.

How long can you survive in a weather so cold that the water freezes over?

No tent, no fire, out in the open barely moving.

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37 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I really liked the suggestion @Yoren Luck came up with. My take on your questions would be:

1) I think she would be more inclined to believe it from Jorah since it would be a second person telling her of the threat. So far, it was only Jon, so she was putting all her eggs in his basket. Oh, and some drawings inside a cave. Jorah is a man she knows well. She would look at it as more than just a coincidence if he were to arrive and tell her the exact same things Jon had been telling her, even if it came from Samwell, a brother of the Night's Watch that she doesn't know.

2) Is the main issue. It would look like she was just allowing him to go off on this mission of folly that she really didn't believe in. Kind of like her saying, 'Go on, Jon. Knock yourself out.' It would also mean that the scenes when she looked distressed at the idea of Jon setting off to capture a wight would have to be changed, as she'd hardly be distressed and worried about his safety if she didn't fully believe there was a threat. 

Yeah, I guess it could have worked, in particular if we consider that Sam had demonstrated to be in good faith by healing Jorah.
Anyway, all this stuff is valid if we really insist that there is the need to go ahead with this idea of capturing a wight, which in my opinion is the root of all problems.

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16 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Oh, so there is no hope to convince Jamie?

Funny, cause I'm pretty sure Jamie will be convinced and Cersie wlll lose her general.

And you keep harping on they should have taken KL.  Of course, they have had about 4 convos on screen explaining why they won't just attack KL.  "Queen of the ashes" ring a bell??? Nah, you aren't watching the show obviously or you are simply not paying attention.

Like I said, you have to ignore half the show in order to make most of these complaints.

I agree I think Jaime will be convinced.  I think Jaime has been convinced the Lannisters are going to lose since he saw a dragon and realized the power of Dany's forces.  I also think he has been reassessing his impressions of Tyrion since learning from Olenna that he didn't murder Joffrey.  But I don't think any viewer of the show expects Cersei to be convinced, which is what makes the plot so unbelievable.  And I don't think Cersei is going to hand Jaime the tattered remnants of the Lannister army to march north to fight the dead.  If she does, it will be as a ruse only, to buy more time to get the Golden Company to Westeros.  So the magnificent 7 risk losing the King in the North and a handful of other prominent characters and end up losing a dragon, in order to gain a capable general and perhaps a small contingent of Lannister soldiers.  It doesn't add up to me.

Also, its not queen of the ashes if Dany lands in Kings Landing, and gives an impassioned speech to the people of Flea Bottom telling them to rise up against the evil queen and overthrow her so Dany can rule them more justly and actually help them.  All she'd have to do is melt the gates, burn a few guards, and wait.  Why does the KILL THE MASTERS plotline work in Essos but a KILL THE QUEEN plotline can't worn in Westeros?  You are talking about a woman who used an impassioned speech, a show of force, and a demonstration of her power to overthrow thousands of years of enslavement.  These same elements would undoubtedly work to muster a popular uprising in Kings Landing.  

Don't believe me?  Ask yourself why is it that Hot Pie of all people knows that Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor (the Vatican of Westeros) along with dozens of lords and hundreds of important people including a Queen that actually cared about the poor, but no one in Flea Bottom seems to know or care?  The answer is that the plot demands it, just like the plot demands the Dany lose half her alliances and inexplicably isn't allowed to direct any effort to taking Kings Landing.  Honestly, after the blowing up of the Sept, the people in Flea Bottom should have already been uprising.  Instead they are for some unknown reason totally on her side and cheering for her, despite being the same people that were throwing garbage and rotting food and flopping their dicks at her just a little while ago.  King's Landing should be a tinderbox but instead it seems the common folk are more on board with the royalty than ever before, which is simply not plausible given how the show has previously established these same people and their opinions regarding the ruling class.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

The letter sent to the twins was addressed "occupant"

LOL, same with the one addressed to Casterly Rock, Storms End, Highgarden, Riverrun, Horn Hill, and all parts Dorne.  The one sent to the Vale was automatically forwarded to Winterfell.  I'm sure there's other houses/castles I am forgetting that are also vacant

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1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

In the end, The army of Vale came to win the BoB... So she could have never entered that house it would have been the same... She would have heard something about Jon being dead... And then "Jon is fighting to take WF back..." Oh Let's join the fray! Don't know...

Maybe she was important next to Jon in order to convince him to march to WF... But apart from that, he never listenned to her... So what was the point? 

I suspect your theory will be close to how Sansa/Alayne's story will turn out in the books.

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2 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

Much better, I would buy it more easily, but there are still some problems:
1) why should she be convinced by Jorah's story if she wasn't convinced by Jon's? Jon should actually be considered a more reliable source than Samwell, at least on the point of view of Dany.
2) the relationship between Dany and Jon looks weaker in your version: she doesn't believe him and she let him go for a bad reason.
 

1.) Because Jorah is a longstanding ally and trusted adviser who would not mislead her regarding something this serious, and because he was told this information from a man who was saving his life, who had absolutely no reason to lie to him about any of it and already established that he respected the hell out of his father, and because this would be the second time Dany received the exact same information and hearing it from Jorah would be a confirmation that Jon is not some crazy northerner and his motivations in trying to convince her of the danger are valid.

2.) At Eastwatch Jon admits that they need the wight to convince both queens: Cersei and Dany.  She already doesn't believe him in the show version, and let him go for a bad reason.  In fact, after talking to Tyrion about it, she seems to think the whole endeavor is little more than a stupid attempt of Jon's to show he is heroic so she falls in love with him.

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A few things i noticed in the last few episodes and things mentioned or not mentioned in the discussion:

 

How do you convince an enemy of something? Especially if most people say its all fairytales and made up stories? How do you get that enemy to listen to you and join you or get them to stand down? 

 

From that perspective the Mission beyond the Wall pretty much is the only solution. Armies need to be preserved and not wasted, showing the undead can accomplish that without furter spilling of blood. If that doesnt convince the enemy, eliminate their leadership. My guess will be, if Cersei can't be convinced, she has to be eliminated and replaced with somebody who takes issues seriousely. 

 

Somebody mentioned, why not take the Wright to the citadel? Anybody missed that a few episodes back Samwell tried to convince the Maesters but they said it all could just be a plott to undermine Cersei? They don't really care if half of Westeros gets wiped out, why should they have to convince anyone? So it's faster and easier to try to convince your enemy directly. 

 

What comes out of an Icedragons Throat? Can't be fire for sure. So will he just spit Ice and Cold and freeze you instantly?

 

Issues with the timeline, why does the NK just chill out for days? 

It's not even the hight of Winter yet, he has all the time in the world, it's like a siege. Why fight and loose your army if you can just wait and let the enemy freeze to death and or starve to death? What is a few days and weeks when Winter will last Years? 

 

What does the NK see in Jon? There is obviousely something gooing on, so what could that be?

In my opinion the NK has a lot of respect for Jon, nothing more. The NK knows that he has the upper hand, but it's no fun if your oponent is a wuss and beaten instantly. If the NK is gooing to lay waste to westeros, a bit of a challenge is always good. A worthy opponent so to speak. And maybe a successor once he beats him?

 

Connection between Bran and the NK: Bran has the Mark of the NK, given to him while warging. I would assume that that allows the NK to know where Bran is warging to. Also the NK has been around a lomg time, also, a bunch of Ravens doesnt just fly low over an army of dead corpses for fun, so he knows that he is beeing watched.

 

How fast do dragons and Ravens fly? Or how far beyond the wall did the suicide squad go?

They traveled north of the wall for a day, they didn't set up camp, not once. In the terrain they are, they couldn't have gone furter than 25-30 miles from the wall. That distance is based on real world long distance hiking for fit hikers. For Gendry that would mean a double marathon in one go. One to hike out of the wall, and the second running back to it. Doable for a fit and healty person with a mission. The Speed of Ravens and Dragons has been discussed before, lets asume those speeds are realistic. I also assume that the distance between eastwatch and dragonstone is a bit shorter than in the books.

Also: We assume that is a 1000 miles from Winterfell to Kingslanding. Thats roadmiles, not Line of sight? Roads and trails are windy, they go up and around hills, around swamps and stuff like that. Wf could be 500 miles from KL as the Raven flies, thus making the distances up north equally short as soon as you can fly with the "Dragon Express".

 

More to come :-) Interested in my fellow GOTers Opinions.

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5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

That's an extremely narrow definition that even completely ignored the history of the term. The fact that something is known to exist in the universe (and not all of these are) does not prevent it from being a Deus ex machina. After all, Greek gods were very much known to exist in the universe, yet randomly getting their help is still DEM.

There was never a mention of a magical lake with just the right features before they randomly stumbled on it. The writers admit they only put it there because of writing themselves into a corner. It solves an unsolvable problem for the protagonists. DEM

The dragons themselves are not DEM - as you say they behave exactly as dragons have in the past, which is why I did not list it. What *is* DEM is the characters suddenly being able to contact Dany and her bring her Dragons over at the speed of Skype not raven.

Benjen most definitely is DEM. There's absolutely no reason to believe he would show up in these parts, and he shows up at *exactly* the right moment. If he came 5min late or early it would break the plot. 

However, regardless of your preferred classification, there is no denying that this entire plotline is one giant contrivance and plothole. Literally no plot development that happens once they go past the gate at Eastwatch holds up to the slightest scrutiny. It's also all completely unearned - the protagonists basically don't do anything but get ambushed and then rescued by the writers in a series of unexpected events. There's no character growth and very little character motivation and none of the solutions to their problems are a result of anything they actually did. 

It's contrivance and a coincidence not a deus ex. 

The biggest deus ex machina in the series is Dany not being burned by Drogo pyre and surviving with three dragons. 

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22 minutes ago, Yoren Luck said:

1.) Because Jorah is a longstanding ally and trusted adviser who would not mislead her regarding something this serious, and because he was told this information from a man who was saving his life, who had absolutely no reason to lie to him about any of it and already established that he respected the hell out of his father, and because this would be the second time Dany received the exact same information and hearing it from Jorah would be a confirmation that Jon is not some crazy northerner and his motivations in trying to convince her of the danger are valid.

2.) At Eastwatch Jon admits that they need the wight to convince both queens: Cersei and Dany.  She already doesn't believe him in the show version, and let him go for a bad reason.  In fact, after talking to Tyrion about it, she seems to think the whole endeavor is little more than a stupid attempt of Jon's to show he is heroic so she falls in love with him.

Yeah, I guess it's the best thing we can do if we really do not want to abandon the wight's capture plan

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4 minutes ago, lancerman said:

It's contrivance and a coincidence not a deus ex. 

The biggest deus ex machina in the series is Dany not being burned by Drogo pyre and surviving with three dragons. 

In the first scene we see Daenerys in (both show and books), we are shown how she cannot get burned by - almost boiled - water for her bath. The next time -> when she touches her dragon eggs that are supposed to be really, really hot (were next to fire or something, can't recall). Her "maiden" intervenes, she gets burned but Danny's hands are all fine.

That's not deus ex machina, its all foreshadowed.

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1 hour ago, 3sm1r said:

Yeah, I guess it could have worked, in particular if we consider that Sam had demonstrated to be in good faith by healing Jorah.
Anyway, all this stuff is valid if we really insist that there is the need to go ahead with this idea of capturing a wight, which in my opinion is the root of all problems.

Agreed!

The fact that there is like 4 pages of debate in this thread over the definition of 'deus ex machina' is all the proof anyone should need that this episode had some serious issues.

For the record, the origin of the term and most literal definition is the unexpected usage of a god to resolve a plot, by suspending a character or representation of that god over the stage/arena, using a crane or similar device during a Greek or Roman performance.  Hence the literal translation "god from a machine" (the god character/prop was lowered using a machine).  

Merriam-Webster's definition for this literal usage is "a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome."  Having the word 'introduction' in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character'.  It means 'this character is being introduced onto the stage via a crane, as opposed to introducing them from stage left or stage right.  This is not a debatable point.

The Merriam-Webster definition as it relates to modern usage is "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty".  Again, having the phrase "appears or is introduced" in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character or thing'.  It means the character or thing is brought into the story in a sudden or unexpected manner.  This is not a debatable point.

In both of these definitions, the word 'introduced' refers to how the character or thing enters the scene or stage, not that it is the first time we are being introduced to that character or thing.  The word 'introduced' on its own has multiple meanings, but the meaning with respect to the phrase 'deus ex machina' stems from it's most literal and original definition/usage, meaning 'entering the stage'.

Uncle Benjen coming to save the day is absolutely a 'deux ex machina' both when he helps Bran and when he helps Jon.  This is also not a debatable point.  If you want to debate something regarding Savior Benjen, you can debate whether we should be calling Jon's rescue a "part deux ex machina" or a "dos ex machina" since this is the second time the show runners have used the same contrived solution to the same problem because they are now apparently even too lazy to write new contrived solutions.  

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3 minutes ago, Yoren Luck said:

Agreed!

The fact that there is like 4 pages of debate in this thread over the definition of 'deus ex machina' is all the proof anyone should need that this episode had some serious issues.

For the record, the origin of the term and most literal definition is the unexpected usage of a god to resolve a plot, by suspending a character or representation of that god over the stage/arena, using a crane or similar device during a Greek or Roman performance.  Hence the literal translation "god from a machine" (the god character/prop was lowered using a machine).  

Merriam-Webster's definition for this literal usage is "a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome."  Having the word 'introduction' in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character'.  It means 'this character is being introduced onto the stage via a crane, as opposed to introducing them from stage left or stage right.  This is not a debatable point.

The Merriam-Webster definition as it relates to modern usage is "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty".  Again, having the phrase "appears or is introduced" in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character or thing'.  It means the character or thing is brought into the story in a sudden or unexpected manner.  This is not a debatable point.

In both of these definitions, the word 'introduced' refers to how the character or thing enters the scene or stage, not that it is the first time we are being introduced to that character or thing.  The word 'introduced' on its own has multiple meanings, but the meaning with respect to the phrase 'deus ex machina' stems from it's most literal and original definition/usage, meaning 'entering the stage'.

Uncle Benjen coming to save the day is absolutely a 'deux ex machina' both when he helps Bran and when he helps Jon.  This is also not a debatable point.  If you want to debate something regarding Savior Benjen, you can debate whether we should be calling Jon's rescue a "part deux ex machina" or a "dos ex machina" since this is the second time the show runners have used the same contrived solution to the same problem because they are now apparently even too lazy to write new contrived solutions.  

What bothered me even more than the 'deux ex machina' of Benjen saving Jon is the fact they used this scene to kill Benjen off. There was no need for him to do. Help Jon on the horse and let it gallop away to safety. I think it was a lazy way for the writers to kill of a character they didn't know what to do with anymore.

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26 minutes ago, BlackSwanf4u said:

A few things i noticed in the last few episodes and things mentioned or not mentioned in the discussion:

[snip]

Somebody mentioned, why not take the Wright to the citadel? Anybody missed that a few episodes back Samwell tried to convince the Maesters but they said it all could just be a plott to undermine Cersei? They don't really care if half of Westeros gets wiped out, why should they have to convince anyone? So it's faster and easier to try to convince your enemy directly. 

[snip]

 

I said this earlier, so I will respond.  Samwell told the maesters that the realm respects their opinion, and if they said this was an issue, people would listen and act accordingly.  The maesters responded by saying it could be a plot to undermine Cersei, and that they needed more proof.  That is why the told Sam they would write again to Winterfell for clarification...to see if this was some sort of mistake or overreaction or if they could read more into the situation and see if it is all some ploy.  

Bringing a wight to the Citadel and telling the head Maesters there is 100,000+ more north of the wall, they are nearly impossible to kill, and they are coming this way would go a long way towards giving them that clarification.

 

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9 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Always thought it was a bit weird that nobody wore a hat north of the wall. Or anywhere that I can recall. Historically that's not accurate (assuming a time period loosely based on 1150-1400 or so), and most importantly, that's just not practical. 

FYI, people, and I mean the majority of people, wore hoods in the 12th to 15th century. Men and women. 

They value some other body parts more and prefer keeping them warm.

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17 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

What bothered me even more than the 'deux ex machina' of Benjen saving Jon is the fact they used this scene to kill Benjen off. There was no need for him to do. Help Jon on the horse and let it gallop away to safety. I think it was a lazy way for the writers to kill of a character they didn't know what to do with anymore.

True. Another even worst example of that is the survival of Jaime. They needed him to survive and be free in a situation in which he should at least have been captured. And they were too lazy to even attempt an explanation. Then, and that's the most annoying thing, they cheated us with a cliffhanger that turned out to be a bluff. 

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