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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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14 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I honestly wonder, no offense - but are you really this dense or do they pay you to write this stuff?

Literally... 42 pages people trying to explain, from ravens breaking the sound barrier, distances traveled to 'deux ex machina' definitions and its implementations in the show... And we're still at the beginning, you brushing aside all criticism (and definitions) just like that.

Seriously.

I've been wondering this myself.  Lord Okra is like the only one defending this scene on this thread, and is so steadfast in that defense that their conviction seems fake in the wake of the 40+ pages of criticisms (large and small)

As a debate thread, this thing is going nowhere because the majority of posters are in agreement that the scene was ridiculous, and the small but vocal minority that are not in agreement but still posting in this thread are not bending an inch despite many, many good points being raised by the majority.

Honestly it feels like this thread has reached the 'agree to disagree' point.  the plot that drove the scene was contrived, the scene had to used several contrived elements for it to be successful, and most viewers recognize that.  the ones that don't are never going to, so as a debate thread this thing is dead in the water

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7 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Even the director said that with the timing they were "straining plausibility". You love the episode more than the director himself :)

Of course they were straining plausibillity.

But, thankfully......I know that special messenger ravens are fast and that dragons are faster......

:)

The stuff was plausible.....in a fantasy setting with magic and dragons.....

Nothing to complain about, that's for sure.

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1 minute ago, Yoren Luck said:

I've been wondering this myself.  Lord Okra is like the only one defending this scene on this thread, and is so steadfast in that defense that their conviction seems fake in the wake of the 40+ pages of criticisms (large and small)

As a debate thread, this thing is going nowhere because the majority of posters are in agreement that the scene was ridiculous, and the small but vocal minority that are not in agreement but still posting in this thread are not bending an inch despite many, many good points being raised by the majority.

Honestly it feels like this thread has reached the 'agree to disagree' point.  the plot that drove the scene was contrived, the scene had to used several contrived elements for it to be successful, and most viewers recognize that.  the ones that don't are never going to, so as a debate thread this thing is dead in the water

:agree:

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1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

His battle plans weren't bad in previous battles.


You mean, that devastating pincer move??? ... :lol:

 

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21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 


You mean, that devastating pincer move??? ... :lol:

 

Stannis had he pincer move.

Jon wanted to fill in the wall with ice and hope for the best.  He was ignored.

You should rewatch that season I think.  It was outstanding.

You didn't like it?

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8 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Stannis had he pincer move.

Jon wanted to fill in the wall with ice and hope for the best.  He was ignored.

You should rewatch that season I think.  It was outstanding.

You didn't like it?

Jon proposed a pincer move.

I'd say you should rewatch the season, but was unremarkable.

You won't like it.

 

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22 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon proposed a pincer move.

I'd say you should rewatch the season, but was unremarkable.

You won't like it.

 

Wow.

I'm embarrassed for you.

Jon did not propose a pincer move.  He was telling Thormund what Stannis used against the wildlings and how he (Jon) had trenches dug so that Ramsey couldn't use that type of cavalry maneuver against them.  He was showing that he was prepared against that type of move to Thormund.

Davos comments on their overall strategy.  Stay back and wait.  Sansa later warns that Ramsey will mess with Jon to get him to break his well laid plans and Jon dismisses her.

Later, Ramsey manipulates Jon into abandoning his good battle plans out of emotion.

Good stuff.

 

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28 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Wow.

I'm embarrassed for you.

Jon did not propose a pincer move.  He was telling Thormund what Stannis used against the wildlings and how he (Jon) had trenches dug so that Ramsey couldn't use that type of cavalry maneuver against them.  He was showing that he was prepared against that type of move to Thormund.

Davos comments on their overall strategy.  Stay back and wait.  Sansa later warns that Ramsey will mess with Jon to get him to break his well laid plans and Jon dismisses her.

Later, Ramsey manipulates Jon into abandoning his good battle plans out of emotion.

Good stuff.

 

Why? They are basically the same thing. And both of them follow the bowl of brown logic. 

Daenerys and Jon were the only thing stat made sense in this show. 

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19 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Why? They are basically the same thing. And both of them follow the bowl of brown logic. 

Daenerys and Jon were the only thing stat made sense in this show. 

Sincere question:  What is the bowl of brown logic?

Is that the logic of a bowl of brown, or a bowl full of brown logic?

Also, by "show," at the end of your post, do you mean the entire series, or just the most recent episode?

P.S. By the way, I like your name and avatar.

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1 minute ago, Cron said:

Sincere question:  What is the bowl of brown logic?

Is that the logic of a bowl of brown, or a bowl full of brown logic?

Also, by "show," at the end of your post, do you mean the entire series, or just the most recent episode?

P.S. By the way, I like your name and avatar.

The bowl of brown, like the books, is basically a bunch of stuff thrown together that no one likes to think about but eats anyway. Don't you remember from reading the books, It was so gross. It literally makes me gag. It really seems that what Jon was doing on that clip was the same from the Stannis episode at the wall. They both came at their enemy from two sides and cut off any side escape. That's all I meant. It is the same. 

Thank you about the avatar. I am a huge Daenerys fan and she seems like my two favorite things on mine in one, dragons and mermaids. 

Sorry for the misspellings. 

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4 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Or...

We knew Jon was going to survive where every other human being would have died because he has plot armor the thickness of a castle wall and we knew the show was going to do it in a contrived, Deus ex machina manner because a, they deliberately wrote themselves into a corner and b, are not good enough writers to make him survive in an organic way. The moment he fell in you knew a Deus ex machina was coming.

The fact the same plot device (because this is not a character) was used as a deus ex machina before does not lessen the fact it is *still* a Deus ex machina the second time.

What was the point in almost killing Jon? It was to show how much Dany cares for him, more than one of her dragon-children. NK needed to catch a dragon for the story. They even killed Benjen to point out that Jon is so much more important than another hero-like character who mysteriously has survived North of the wall.

Edited by Deminelle

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7 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

In movies there's something much worse: Star Wars Episode II Attack of the clones \:

How dare you libel such gems as:

"I wish I could just wish away my feelings." 

"I'm a senator."

"Please don't look at me like that...It makes me feel uncomfortable"..."Sorry, m'lady."

And of course the classic:

"I don't like sand."

 

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10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But they could not die because they have a role to play in the endgame, which basically confirms that the wight hunt was something they invented because creatively made sense to them.

In the Inside the Episode they are more concerned saying that they wanted the Polar Bear to happen.....and they said that Benjen was sad of his life (and then he basically sacrified himself), but they ignore his lines in s6 with Bran when he says he will fight in the future for the living. What has happened meanwhile to Benjen to decide to just kill 3 wights before them killing him?

We are talking about a Benjen who was concerned to fight for the living! If he had been sad of his existance, he would have at least given his horse to Bran.....

lots lots of plotholes..

 

Agreed, they obviously worked backwards from wanting to have a major action scene - now with zombie polar bears! - in the penultimate episode and worked backwards from there. They basically admit that in Inside the Episode as well saw saying they needed these characters to survive so they then had to think of the ways to make that happen. I'm baffled how anybody thought this was a good idea and how it's possible that this close to the end game they could not think of an exciting thing for the characters to do/a proper twist to use instead. 

By all accounts the NK will breach the Wall in the next episode - why not make *that* the big action scene of the season? They could basically have the same characters and even have Dany fly in to help etc without a contrived plot, unclear character motivations and speed of light travel. They could even still have the goddamn polar bear.

Benjen is not a character to them - he's a plot device. 

ETA: Actually, this is how you could have a much better, more character-driven and believable plot using basically the same elements:

1, Bran sends the raven about the NK approaching Eastwatch.

2, Jon, after the initial shock and joy at discovering Bran is alive, jumps to action because he knows what a miracle it is that Bran with his disability would have survived beyond the Wall and because he trusts his brother implicitly.

3, He makes an impassionate speech about how he can't stay at Dragon stone and needs to go protect his people. And let's face it, this is exactly the kind of motivation that would appeal to Dany and make her see Jon in a new light as so many of her own decisions are driven by her desire to protect her people.

4, At this point he could make the last appeal to Dany to come with him. At which point you could have Dany deliver that speech that was so out of place in their first meeting - her entire life was spent trying to win back the IT and so much of her identity is wrapped around in that goal that she can't just let it go. Plus she needs to protect her realm from Cersei's tyranny. She'll help Jon once she's secured the IT. Sure, it's selfish but it makes sense what we know of her and given the information she has. If it happens it private it even helps boost the Jon & Dany romance because it gives them a genuine personal character moment to share.

5, Jorah, having just been healed by Sam who believes both in Jon and the NK, seeing that she is conflicted about her decision, offers her a way out - he'll go with Jon as her eyes and ears and report back as to the truth of his claims.

6, When Jon and co arrive at the Wall, the NK's attack is imminent. They do their best, epic action ensues including a zombie bear, but it becomes clear that they are losing. Jorah reports to Dany or Jon specifically asks her for help (in return for bending the knee?). They send a raven.

7, In the meanwhile, Dany is shown preparing her army to assault KL. She's about to sail when the raven arrives (or she has an epiphany). At this point it's too late to send her army - they'd never make it in time. She must go herself. This is her save horse before the cart moment.

 

8, She arrives at the Wall and it looks like she might turn the tide of the battle around. Then Viserion gets speared and brings down a chunk of the Wall. They retreat in desperation. You can even have Jon get separated and saved by Benjen if you must.

 

For added flavour you could have someone propose a political marriage between Jon and Dany when She suffers the setbacks with her battle plans, offering a major temptation for Jon to mirror Stannis's offer. Does he agree to help Dany dispose of Cersei in exchange for getting the political resources that come with being the King? Does he choose his growing attraction towards Dany over his duty?

Edited by Maid So Fair

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11 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Respecting the character?  Benjen's entire show existence is to serve to save two important Starks (main characters Bran and Jon).  That's his purpose in the overall plot of the show.  He's a minor character that got two cool rescue scenes and a couple of opportunities to dialog with Ned/Jon/Bran.  He isn't significant to the overall plot on the show.

And Jon doesn't seem like a stupid commander at all to me.  That's your view.  He's made some mistakes but overall he's shown to be a good leader of all living men.  A fair and just guy.  His battle plans weren't bad in previous battles.

Your main problem with the show as I see it is that.......it isn't the books.  Or, it was in the books but they cut it.  Or, I don't like that they changed this or that.

Oh well.  That's really not a show problem for anybody who didn't read the books.  The show is outstanding.  The plot is good.  The characters are great.  The acting is great.  The cinematography is great.  The story is great.  The dialog is outstanding.

You wanted Benjen to have a bigger role?  Ok.  Fair enough.  They cut him back to the bare min because there's only so much screen time.   They are just going for the main points and consolidating and eliminating what they can.  You don't have to like it but that doesn't make it bad writing.

The Dany/Jon scenes and love story have been great.  It has been great tv.  The looks have been all that has been needed.  Just the looks and gestures......quality acting by both Emilia and Kit.  They are killing it right now.

 

 

 

What a load of rubbish. My partner has not read a single ASOIAF book and he's ripped on every single episode since season 4. It's not just book readers who have noticed the decline since then. Why can't you just accept that not everyone is a fanboy who can't criticise anything? It doesn't mean we hate it, it means that we know it has the potential to be much better. 

What is this 'love story' you speak of by the way? All I see is awkward staring and characters telling people how they feel. That isn't a love story. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

No, I'm saying you don't appear to really like GoT that much these days.

So what? Who cares what other people think? You think the show is perfect and the greatest thing since sliced bread, that's your opinion. We think the show jumped the shark a long time ago and could have been so much more. That's our opinion and we are entitled to it. 

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10 hours ago, plastic throne said:

I honestly wonder, no offense - but are you really this dense or do they pay you to write this stuff?

Literally... 42 pages people trying to explain, from ravens breaking the sound barrier, distances traveled to 'deux ex machina' definitions and its implementations in the show... And we're still at the beginning, you brushing aside all criticism (and definitions) just like that.

Seriously.

I have to wonder if they are someone who works on the show, the lack of acceptance that there are genuine criticisms is pretty perplexing and indicates that they have some close connection to it. They are almost upset by the comments. 

Going to the extent of telling people what they should think about a show and whether they should watch or not is almost beyond fanboyism. I'm a Star Wars fangirl but I accept that there are people who don't like it and they are entitled to that opinion. They can hate watch it as much as they like, it doesn't affect me. 

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Man, I can see all the flaws in this season: the plausible impossibilities, inconsistencies, etc., and I still could not give two shits about that - I don't even feel frustrated or anything. I like the show for what it is. I view GoT like diabetic people view insulin. I need my fix to stay alive while Winds of Winter is being written. This is just better-than-averge fan-fiction  about what could happen in WoW and ADOS.

I think I would make a shitty critic for TV. Everything I like will be 10/10. :D

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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9 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

The bowl of brown, like the books, is basically a bunch of stuff thrown together that no one likes to think about but eats anyway. Don't you remember from reading the books, It was so gross. It literally makes me gag. It really seems that what Jon was doing on that clip was the same from the Stannis episode at the wall. They both came at their enemy from two sides and cut off any side escape. That's all I meant. It is the same. 

Thank you about the avatar. I am a huge Daenerys fan and she seems like my two favorite things on mine in one, dragons and mermaids. 

Sorry for the misspellings. 

HAR!  A bunch of stuff thrown together that no one likes, but everybody eats.  Nice!  Thanks for the explanation!

Dany is cool, no doubt.  I think a lot of fans (including me) tend to gravitate towards characters that we can identify with, often b/c they remind us of ourselves in some way.  Are you and Dany similar in some way(s)?

Or, I guess, maybe sometimes we like characters who represent things we aspire to, and sometimes, even, "opposites attract."

I'd say my list of favorite characters have some of all of those types on it.

(I love talking about GRRM's characters.  I've read a LOT of books in my life, and GRRM has the best character development I've ever read, hands down)

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4 hours ago, darmody said:

How dare you libel such gems as:

"I wish I could just wish away my feelings." 

"I'm a senator."

"Please don't look at me like that...It makes me feel uncomfortable"..."Sorry, m'lady."

And of course the classic:

"I don't like sand."

 

And yet, George Lucas still managed to sell the franchise for $4 billion to Disney.

Who is now close, I think, to recouping their investment and moving into "pure profit territory."  (Probably sometime during The Last Jedi's run at the box office, they will be into pure profit, I would guess.)

(Nothing wrong with a bit of nitpicking, though.  It's what we fans sometimes do, and I'm a huge Star Wars fan.  Don't give the original trilogy free passes, though.  The most wildly unrealistic thing in Star Wars, BY FAR, is the Ewoks winning the battle of Endor which occurred in the original trilogy's Return of the Jedi.  A New Hope also has some eyebrow-raising stuff.)

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1 hour ago, Airemyn said:

I have to wonder if they are someone who works on the show, the lack of acceptance that there are genuine criticisms is pretty perplexing and indicates that they have some close connection to it. They are almost upset by the comments. 

Going to the extent of telling people what they should think about a show and whether they should watch or not is almost beyond fanboyism. I'm a Star Wars fangirl but I accept that there are people who don't like it and they are entitled to that opinion. They can hate watch it as much as they like, it doesn't affect me. 

Interesting. Two Star Wars references in this thread, just a few posts apart.

I like it.

Regarding GoT, I guess maybe I'm somewhere in the middle on a lot of this discussion.  I love analyzing what we've seen, and asking "Does this make sense?", but on the other hand I still love the show a lot, too.

In fact, I believe Season 7 still has the potential to end up being one of the best.  My episode ratings for the episodes so far, in order, are 9, 9, 9, 10, 8, 6.

If it finishes strong tomorrow, with a 9 or a 10, it could be a contender for best season, and I'm REALLY hoping that will be the case, so we can all spend the next year and half or so basking in the pleasant afterglow.

 

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