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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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57 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Man, I can see all the flaws in this season: the plausible impossibilities, inconsistencies, etc., and I still could not give two shits about that - I don't even feel frustrated or anything. I like the show for what it is. I view GoT like diabetic people view insulin. I need my fix to stay alive while Winds of Winter is being written. This is just better-than-averge fan-fiction  about what could happen in WoW and ADOS.

I think I would make a shitty critic for TV. Everything I like will be 10/10. :D

I think we are somewhat close in our views.  And I think GRRM is right there with us, too, as he has basically said "the books are the books, and the show is the show."

It's okay to compare and contrast them (I do it myself, not infrequently), but in the end I view them as separate universes in an infinite multiverse  where all possibilities can exist.

And even though, overall, I like the books better, there ARE some things the show has done better than the books.  In fact, I have a whole thread on that subject in the General GoT room  and last time I checked it had over 1,000 posts in it.

By the way, I'm a huge Marvel fan, too.  Who is Thanos talking about in that quote you have there?  Can't wait for Infinity War, but it was a mistake for them to do it without Adam Warlock (although he IS coming to the big screen, as you may know).

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42 minutes ago, Cron said:

I think we are somewhat close in our views.  And I think GRRM is right there with us, too, as he has basically said "the books are the books, and the show is the show."

It's okay to compare and contrast them (I do it myself, not infrequently), but in the end I view them as separate universes in an infinite multiverse  where all possibilities can exist.

And even though, overall, I like the books better, there ARE some things the show has done better than the books.  In fact, I have a whole thread on that subject in the General GoT room  and last time I checked it had over 1,000 posts in it.

By the way, I'm a huge Marvel fan, too.  Who is Thanos talking about in that quote you have there?  Can't wait for Infinity War, but it was a mistake for them to do it without Adam Warlock (although he IS coming to the big screen, as you may know).

I got the quote from the comics, specifically from Thanos Rising. The comic is the origin story of Thanos - it explains how he become who he is, and how he met Lady Death, etc. Thanos is one of my favorite characters in Marvel Comics, especially his relationship with Death. The quote itself symbolizes why Thanos killed when he was younger. :( it's tragically beautiful.

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1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I got the quote from the comics, specifically from Thanos Rising. The comic is the origin story of Thanos - it explains how he become who he is, and how he met Lady Death, etc. Thanos is one of my favorite characters in Marvel Comics, especially his relationship with Death. The quote itself symbolizes why Thanos killed when he was younger. :( it's tragically beautiful.

Well then, you must be REALLY looking forward to Infinity War.

I thought they got Thanos right in Guardians of the Galaxy 1.

I wonder if he'll  end up having something of a redemption arc in the movies, like he did in the comic books.  (Although I have no idea where Thanos stands today.)

I loved Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War and Infinity Crusade, but I haven't been a comic book reader for a long time.

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5 hours ago, Airemyn said:

What a load of rubbish. My partner has not read a single ASOIAF book and he's ripped on every single episode since season 4. It's not just book readers who have noticed the decline since then. Why can't you just accept that not everyone is a fanboy who can't criticise anything? It doesn't mean we hate it, it means that we know it has the potential to be much better. 

What is this 'love story' you speak of by the way? All I see is awkward staring and characters telling people how they feel. That isn't a love story. 

He's ripped on every single episode for 3 seasons?

And he's still watching?

Your partner needs help.

Edited by Lord Okra

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13 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

The bowl of brown, like the books, is basically a bunch of stuff thrown together that no one likes to think about but eats anyway. Don't you remember from reading the books, It was so gross. It literally makes me gag. It really seems that what Jon was doing on that clip was the same from the Stannis episode at the wall. They both came at their enemy from two sides and cut off any side escape. That's all I meant. It is the same. 

Thank you about the avatar. I am a huge Daenerys fan and she seems like my two favorite things on mine in one, dragons and mermaids. 

Sorry for the misspellings. 

I can't even.

I think these last two posts have let me in on the real issue.

Some of you simply aren't capable of following the conversations.

One guy thinks Jon was proposing a pincer move......

And you just are lost overall after watching the scene......

I, honestly, just think the show is over your head.

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8 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

 

Agreed, they obviously worked backwards from wanting to have a major action scene - now with zombie polar bears! - in the penultimate episode and worked backwards from there. 

 

 

How about, in the books the NK is going to get an ice dragon from Dany in the outline given by GRRM and they had to work backwards from there since GRRM can't figure out or doesn't want to figure out how that actually happens in the books he isn't going to finish.......so, they backed into a way for that to happen.

At least as plausible as your theory.......actually, more plausible.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

How about, in the books the NK is going to get an ice dragon from Dany in the outline given by GRRM and they had to work backwards from there since GRRM can't figure out or doesn't want to figure out how that actually happens in the books he isn't going to finish.......so, they backed into a way for that to happen.

At least as plausible as your theory.......actually, more plausible.

I'm not sure its fair to call it a theory when the showrunners have basically that's exactly what happened in their inside the episode. 

But even if the intention is to get an ice dragon rather than a cool battle scene, there are plenty of better ways to make that happen. After all, all you need is the NK and a dragon in a scene together. People have spoken about various ways the wight hunt could have been at least a little bit more believable.

Or, better yet, you could skip the whole nonsense just as I described in the very post you quoted:

8 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

ETA: Actually, this is how you could have a much better, more character-driven and believable plot using basically the same elements:

1, Bran sends the raven about the NK approaching Eastwatch.

2, Jon, after the initial shock and joy at discovering Bran is alive, jumps to action because he knows what a miracle it is that Bran with his disability would have survived beyond the Wall and because he trusts his brother implicitly.

3, He makes an impassionate speech about how he can't stay at Dragon stone and needs to go protect his people. And let's face it, this is exactly the kind of motivation that would appeal to Dany and make her see Jon in a new light as so many of her own decisions are driven by her desire to protect her people.

4, At this point he could make the last appeal to Dany to come with him. At which point you could have Dany deliver that speech that was so out of place in their first meeting - her entire life was spent trying to win back the IT and so much of her identity is wrapped around in that goal that she can't just let it go. Plus she needs to protect her realm from Cersei's tyranny. She'll help Jon once she's secured the IT. Sure, it's selfish but it makes sense what we know of her and given the information she has. If it happens it private it even helps boost the Jon & Dany romance because it gives them a genuine personal character moment to share.

5, Jorah, having just been healed by Sam who believes both in Jon and the NK, seeing that she is conflicted about her decision, offers her a way out - he'll go with Jon as her eyes and ears and report back as to the truth of his claims.

6, When Jon and co arrive at the Wall, the NK's attack is imminent. They do their best, epic action ensues including a zombie bear, but it becomes clear that they are losing. Jorah reports to Dany or Jon specifically asks her for help (in return for bending the knee?). They send a raven.

7, In the meanwhile, Dany is shown preparing her army to assault KL. She's about to sail when the raven arrives (or she has an epiphany). At this point it's too late to send her army - they'd never make it in time. She must go herself. This is her save horse before the cart moment.

 

8, She arrives at the Wall and it looks like she might turn the tide of the battle around. Then Viserion gets speared and brings down a chunk of the Wall. They retreat in desperation. You can even have Jon get separated and saved by Benjen if you must.

 

For added flavour you could have someone propose a political marriage between Jon and Dany when She suffers the setbacks with her battle plans, offering a major temptation for Jon to mirror Stannis's offer. Does he agree to help Dany dispose of Cersei in exchange for getting the political resources that come with being the King? Does he choose his growing attraction towards Dany over his duty?

 

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1, Bran sends the raven about the NK approaching Eastwatch.

This happened in the show so I'm with ya.

2, Jon, after the initial shock and joy at discovering Bran is alive, jumps to action because he knows what a miracle it is that Bran with his disability would have survived beyond the Wall and because he trusts his brother implicitly.

This happened in the show too so I'm still with ya.

3, He makes an impassionate speech about how he can't stay at Dragon stone and needs to go protect his people. And let's face it, this is exactly the kind of motivation that would appeal to Dany and make her see Jon in a new light as so many of her own decisions are driven by her desire to protect her people.

This also happened in the show so I'm staying with you other than why Dany should be eager to believe some boy has visions.  I guess we are going to just totally trust Jon at this point from a Dany POV if she's going to start believing in people she never met having visions of Armies of the Dead.  Would require a rewrite of everything up to that point in the season.  Dany would need to already be in love with Jon basically.

4, At this point he could make the last appeal to Dany to come with him. At which point you could have Dany deliver that speech that was so out of place in their first meeting - her entire life was spent trying to win back the IT and so much of her identity is wrapped around in that goal that she can't just let it go. Plus she needs to protect her realm from Cersei's tyranny. She'll help Jon once she's secured the IT. Sure, it's selfish but it makes sense what we know of her and given the information she has. If it happens it private it even helps boost the Jon & Dany romance because it gives them a genuine personal character moment to share.

So we don't get the scene where Dany establishes the underlying reasons why she won't just believe Jon when she first meets him?  Instead, we get it a few episodes later?  Or are you saying we get that speech twice?  Didn't we actually get a summary of that speech though?

I thought the response to the Bran news from Dany was......short summary......I won't abandon the 7 Kingdoms to Cersie.  And didn't this entire sequence give Jon/Dany the "personal" moment.....the great understanding that will now allow them to complete this plotline where they are falling for each other.

5, Jorah, having just been healed by Sam who believes both in Jon and the NK, seeing that she is conflicted about her decision, offers her a way out - he'll go with Jon as her eyes and ears and report back as to the truth of his claims.

Dany has been uber stubborn because of her goal.  She won't just leave the IT to anyone.  She's here for the IT, not to fight some fantasy army.  That's Dany's entire thing (I admit, way simplified) the entire season pretty much.  She's here for the IT.  And, in that scene we see Dany's reaction to the offer by Jorah and then Jon jumping in.......she doesn't like this plan at all.......the more she ponders it (fire scene)......the more she doesn't like it......

Eventually she just goes and rescues them.  And haven't we had numerous convo's where "Dany is too valuable to risk?"  

6, When Jon and co arrive at the Wall, the NK's attack is imminent. They do their best, epic action ensues including a zombie bear, but it becomes clear that they are losing. Jorah reports to Dany or Jon specifically asks her for help (in return for bending the knee?). They send a raven.

So we ruin Dany's redemption arc for being so stubborn and self centered earlier in the season?  Jon is still forced to bend the knee so that Dany will finally help?  This is just not what the show was ever going for and we should all be jumping up and down over the fact that these two both dropped their stubbornness and hard hardheadedness......their prideful behavior.  Dany coming in and saving Jon without he bend the knee request is the natural resolution.......along with Jon offering to bend the knee (or propose?) after the demand is dropped.

7, In the meanwhile, Dany is shown preparing her army to assault KL. She's about to sail when the raven arrives (or she has an epiphany). At this point it's too late to send her army - they'd never make it in time. She must go herself. This is her save horse before the cart moment.

We've had enough "visions."  On the one hand we get complaints about it not being realistic enough and they conveniently get this or that just in the right time.  Now, we are asking for a vision for Dany.  Well, isn't that a great plot device.  We can just skip passed ravens, Gendry running, miracle lake.....because Dany has visions of he future.......that we never established in the show. 

Oh the crying we'd get over Dany gaining visions at just the right moment to save Jon.

8, She arrives at the Wall and it looks like she might turn the tide of the battle around. Then Viserion gets speared and brings down a chunk of the Wall. They retreat in desperation. You can even have Jon get separated and saved by Benjen if you must.

This is basically the end we got other than it happens at the wall.  Only......

If Viserion is the key to taking down the wall then why is the NK attacking the wall prior to having a dragon?  Can you imagine the whining here about that?  NK attacks wall with no way to breach it but then lucks into a dragon who he uses to then breach the wall........

Maybe GRRM's plot is so convoluted and the process of the wall coming down needs so much backstory and so much "suspension of disbelief" without a novel to explain it that the showrunners thought......we need some way to bring down this wall that doesn't require a season to explain away.......hey, lets get a dragon to do it.....GRRM says NK gets a dragon......we'll do that early and then we can use the dragon to solve the wall breech problem. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

1, Bran sends the raven about the NK approaching Eastwatch.

This happened in the show so I'm with ya.

2, Jon, after the initial shock and joy at discovering Bran is alive, jumps to action because he knows what a miracle it is that Bran with his disability would have survived beyond the Wall and because he trusts his brother implicitly.

This happened in the show too so I'm still with ya.

3, He makes an impassionate speech about how he can't stay at Dragon stone and needs to go protect his people. And let's face it, this is exactly the kind of motivation that would appeal to Dany and make her see Jon in a new light as so many of her own decisions are driven by her desire to protect her people.

This also happened in the show so I'm staying with you other than why Dany should be eager to believe some boy has visions.  I guess we are going to just totally trust Jon at this point from a Dany POV if she's going to start believing in people she never met having visions of Armies of the Dead.  Would require a rewrite of everything up to that point in the season.  Dany would need to already be in love with Jon basically.

4, At this point he could make the last appeal to Dany to come with him. At which point you could have Dany deliver that speech that was so out of place in their first meeting - her entire life was spent trying to win back the IT and so much of her identity is wrapped around in that goal that she can't just let it go. Plus she needs to protect her realm from Cersei's tyranny. She'll help Jon once she's secured the IT. Sure, it's selfish but it makes sense what we know of her and given the information she has. If it happens it private it even helps boost the Jon & Dany romance because it gives them a genuine personal character moment to share.

So we don't get the scene where Dany establishes the underlying reasons why she won't just believe Jon when she first meets him?  Instead, we get it a few episodes later?  Or are you saying we get that speech twice?  Didn't we actually get a summary of that speech though?

I thought the response to the Bran news from Dany was......short summary......I won't abandon the 7 Kingdoms to Cersie.  And didn't this entire sequence give Jon/Dany the "personal" moment.....the great understanding that will now allow them to complete this plotline where they are falling for each other.

5, Jorah, having just been healed by Sam who believes both in Jon and the NK, seeing that she is conflicted about her decision, offers her a way out - he'll go with Jon as her eyes and ears and report back as to the truth of his claims.

Dany has been uber stubborn because of her goal.  She won't just leave the IT to anyone.  She's here for the IT, not to fight some fantasy army.  That's Dany's entire thing (I admit, way simplified) the entire season pretty much.  She's here for the IT.  And, in that scene we see Dany's reaction to the offer by Jorah and then Jon jumping in.......she doesn't like this plan at all.......the more she ponders it (fire scene)......the more she doesn't like it......

Eventually she just goes and rescues them.  And haven't we had numerous convo's where "Dany is too valuable to risk?"  

6, When Jon and co arrive at the Wall, the NK's attack is imminent. They do their best, epic action ensues including a zombie bear, but it becomes clear that they are losing. Jorah reports to Dany or Jon specifically asks her for help (in return for bending the knee?). They send a raven.

So we ruin Dany's redemption arc for being so stubborn and self centered earlier in the season?  Jon is still forced to bend the knee so that Dany will finally help?  This is just not what the show was ever going for and we should all be jumping up and down over the fact that these two both dropped their stubbornness and hard hardheadedness......their prideful behavior.  Dany coming in and saving Jon without he bend the knee request is the natural resolution.......along with Jon offering to bend the knee (or propose?) after the demand is dropped.

7, In the meanwhile, Dany is shown preparing her army to assault KL. She's about to sail when the raven arrives (or she has an epiphany). At this point it's too late to send her army - they'd never make it in time. She must go herself. This is her save horse before the cart moment.

We've had enough "visions."  On the one hand we get complaints about it not being realistic enough and they conveniently get this or that just in the right time.  Now, we are asking for a vision for Dany.  Well, isn't that a great plot device.  We can just skip passed ravens, Gendry running, miracle lake.....because Dany has visions of he future.......that we never established in the show. 

Oh the crying we'd get over Dany gaining visions at just the right moment to save Jon.

8, She arrives at the Wall and it looks like she might turn the tide of the battle around. Then Viserion gets speared and brings down a chunk of the Wall. They retreat in desperation. You can even have Jon get separated and saved by Benjen if you must.

This is basically the end we got other than it happens at the wall.  Only......

If Viserion is the key to taking down the wall then why is the NK attacking the wall prior to having a dragon?  Can you imagine the whining here about that?  NK attacks wall with no way to breach it but then lucks into a dragon who he uses to then breach the wall........

Maybe GRRM's plot is so convoluted and the process of the wall coming down needs so much backstory and so much "suspension of disbelief" without a novel to explain it that the showrunners thought......we need some way to bring down this wall that doesn't require a season to explain away.......hey, lets get a dragon to do it.....GRRM says NK gets a dragon......we'll do that early and then we can use the dragon to solve the wall breech problem. 

 

I'm not sure you realise that all the stuff that you're so keen to dismiss happens in the show lol.

1 & 2 ok

3, It's the show that makes her believe it all just based on Jon's word. She lets him go in the show as well (and would be hard pressed to keep him prisoner without straying into villain territory as he came of his own free will), the difference being that in the show she alters her entire war strategy based on Jon's word by suing for peace with Cersei, which only makes sense if she already believes that the White Walker threat is real and wants to convince Cersei to join them. My alternative only asks her not to keep Jon prisoner instead of actively going out of her to aid him for ...reasons? She might not believe his stories are true, but she's seen enough of him to know he's not her enemy.

4, Not believing Jon about supernatural events that have not happens in thousands of years should be her (and every other reasonable characters) starting point. He's also a nominal Stark that  I from her  POV has usurped a part of her kingdom. He offers no evidence apart from his word. Not to mention her little speech says nothing about why she doesn't *believe* him - just why she won't help. As he hadn't even asked for help at this point it's just silly. And seeing as it involves her sharing pretty personal info like her being raped by her first husband, it would have been a lot more appropriate when addressed in private to someone she's starting to admire/see as a potential love interest rather than a random stranger that showed up in her throne room.

And again, her response was - yep, I'm sufficiently convinced to declare a truce while I'm winning. As you admit yourself, it makes a lot more sense for her to continue her campaign instead.

5, So, she abandons her entire thing by suing for peace while Jon and Jorah bring back a zombie that she doesn't believe exists by going on a mission she just approved. Gotcha! 

Wouldn't it make more sense, you know, not to abandon her goal of sitting  on the IT at this point?

Dany risking her life for the duty to her people is a lot more completing narrative that Dany randomly risking her life because she thinks Jon is hot.

6, What redemption arc? Her not believing Jon is a completely reasonable stance to take. What makes no sense is her abandoning? A part of her identify or at the very least putting it on hold because she has the hots for Jon. Rather than both of them randomly abandoning their goals for no reason, it makes sense for them to reconcile their differences. Jon, who's priority is to fight NK, backs up a monarch that shares that goal while Dany who has always been a saviour first decides to put her people first just as she did in Meereen. But for some reason, the show decided to portray their legitimately different goals as just petty pigheadedness and pride.

7,  I don't think that word means what you think it means. 

Absolutely no visions are required lol. Merely a realisation that the threat is real, whether that comes via a raven or simply her re-evaluation of events ( ie This person that I've now had time to get to know has taken a great personal risk in coming here and has behaved perfectly consistently with his claims. If he's right I'm marching the wrong way). This kind of happens anyway but without any stakes at all because she's just sitting there fiddling her thumbs and is not giving up anything by going to help them and she's not trying to stop the NK from achieving a major goal or anything but merely saving a guy she's attracted to from a mess he walked into for no good reason. She's risking her life and dragons for nothing in the show.

You know, like the epiphany Stannis had when he decided to save the kingdom to win the throne?

8, There's absolutely no reason for anybody to believe that an ice dragon is crucial to breaking/getting past the Wall. Clearly none of the characters who have encountered the NK believe that the Wall is an impenetrable barrier for him otherwise Jon and Sam trying to gather help makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why bother if the NK can't cross the Wall? Since clearly the Wall is coming down at one point anyway, having a battle there at least makes sense for everybody involved. 

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11 hours ago, darmody said:

How dare you libel such gems as:

"I wish I could just wish away my feelings." 

"I'm a senator."

"Please don't look at me like that...It makes me feel uncomfortable"..."Sorry, m'lady."

And of course the classic:

"I don't like sand."

 

Thank you for these epic lines. I remember all of them ;)

I don't like sand. It's coarse, rough and irritating... And it gets everywhere. 

C-L-A-S-S-I-C

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25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'm not sure you realise that all the stuff that you're so keen to dismiss happens in the show lol.

1 & 2 ok

3, It's the show that makes her believe it all just based on Jon's word. She lets him go in the show as well (and would be hard pressed to keep him prisoner without straying into villain territory as he came of his own free will), the difference being that in the show she alters her entire war strategy based on Jon's word by suing for peace with Cersei, which only makes sense if she already believes that the White Walker threat is real and wants to convince Cersei to join them. My alternative only asks her not to keep Jon prisoner instead of actively going out of her to aid him for ...reasons? She might not believe his stories are true, but she's seen enough of him to know he's not her enemy.

4, Not believing Jon about supernatural events that have not happens in thousands of years should be her (and every other reasonable characters) starting point. He's also a nominal Stark that  I from her  POV has usurped a part of her kingdom. He offers no evidence apart from his word. Not to mention her little speech says nothing about why she doesn't *believe* him - just why she won't help. As he hadn't even asked for help at this point it's just silly. And seeing as it involves her sharing pretty personal info like her being raped by her first husband, it would have been a lot more appropriate when addressed in private to someone she's starting to admire/see as a potential love interest rather than a random stranger that showed up in her throne room.

And again, her response was - yep, I'm sufficiently convinced to declare a truce while I'm winning. As you admit yourself, it makes a lot more sense for her to continue her campaign instead.

She says she will go fight with Jon if Cercie agrees.....which nobody in room finds realistic......so Tyrion then argues that Jamie is the key.

In the end, it is all about getting Jamie on their side according to Tyrion as nobody believes Cersie can be trusted.

And she is believing him but she still doesn't recognize the seriousness of the threat.  Only after seeing the threat does she truly understand what Jon was talking about.

25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

5, So, she abandons her entire thing by suing for peace while Jon and Jorah bring back a zombie that she doesn't believe exists by going on a mission she just approved. Gotcha! 

Wouldn't it make more sense, you know, not to abandon her goal of sitting  on the IT at this point?

Dany risking her life for the duty to her people is a lot more completing narrative that Dany randomly risking her life because she thinks Jon is hot.

Wow.  She didn't abandon her goal of the IT.  She is delaying the war for the IT if the others in the war will agree to do so.  And she doesn't believe Cersie will agree to end the war  so.........I can't take all my armies north.  But Tyrion says that if they can convince Jamie then Jamie can hold Cersie in check......not a good solution, granted......but more reasonable than this it is all about Cersie junk people spew.  It is really about Tyrion driving a wedge between Jamie/Cersie if he can.......watch.....that'll play out.

25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

6, What redemption arc? Her not believing Jon is a completely reasonable stance to take. What makes no sense is her abandoning? A part of her identify or at the very least putting it on hold because she has the hots for Jon. Rather than both of them randomly abandoning their goals for no reason, it makes sense for them to reconcile their differences. Jon, who's priority is to fight NK, backs up a monarch that shares that goal while Dany who has always been a saviour first decides to put her people first just as she did in Meereen. But for some reason, the show decided to portray their legitimately different goals as just petty pigheadedness and pride.

Of course it is reasonable if she doesn't understand the AoD threat really.  Which she doesn't until they take out her dragon.  And what are you talking about abandoning?  She hasn't abandoned anything.  Until she left to save Jon/Jorah....she had refused to abandon her goals for the AoD threat.

However, she has seen the AoD threat now and she is now prepared to put the IT aside and fight the REAL THREAT.....

25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

7,  I don't think that word means what you think it means. 

Absolutely no visions are required lol. Merely a realisation that the threat is real, whether that comes via a raven or simply her re-evaluation of events ( ie This person that I've now had time to get to know has taken a great personal risk in coming here and has behaved perfectly consistently with his claims. If he's right I'm marching the wrong way). This kind of happens anyway but without any stakes at all because she's just sitting there fiddling her thumbs and is not giving up anything by going to help them and she's not trying to stop the NK from achieving a major goal or anything but merely saving a guy she's attracted to from a mess he walked into for no good reason. She's risking her life and dragons for nothing in the show.

You know, like the epiphany Stannis had when he decided to save the kingdom to win the throne?

She just realizes huh?  You talked about a vision earlier.  Now you are saying, that without seeing the AoD she suddenly recognizes how off base her refusing to help Jon has been (in fairness she gave him the dragonglass but she did think it was worthless and it was a political tactic).   She is risking her life for JORAH/JON.....they are not "nothing."

What epiphany by Stannis?  This must come from the books.

25 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

8, There's absolutely no reason for anybody to believe that an ice dragon is crucial to breaking/getting past the Wall. Clearly none of the characters who have encountered the NK believe that the Wall is an impenetrable barrier for him otherwise Jon and Sam trying to gather help makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why bother if the NK can't cross the Wall? Since clearly the Wall is coming down at one point anyway, having a battle there at least makes sense for everybody involved. 

There will be a battle for the wall.  And the dragon will be key to taking it down.   The books will probably use some way far fetched way the wall is taken down using magic horns or whatever but the show has to get past the "magic wall" (Sam mentions the wall is supposed to have magic built into it in the show).

Magic dragon to take down magic wall.....show solution.

Magic horn or magic dragon or some form of magic to take down magic wall......book solution.

The show established that magic protects the wall from the WW passing according to Sam's book lernin.  So, a solution must be presented.......what does the show have as a potential solution.......dragons.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

She says she will go fight with Jon if Cercie agrees.....which nobody in room finds realistic......so Tyrion then argues that Jamie is the key.

In the end, it is all about getting Jamie on their side according to Tyrion as nobody believes Cersie can be trusted.

And she is believing him but she still doesn't recognize the seriousness of the threat.  Only after seeing the threat does she truly understand what Jon was talking about.

Wow.  She didn't abandon her goal of the IT.  She is delaying the war for the IT if the others in the war will agree to do so.  And she doesn't believe Cersie will agree to end the war  so.........I can't take all my armies north.  But Tyrion says that if they can convince Jamie then Jamie can hold Cersie in check......not a good solution, granted......but more reasonable than this it is all about Cersie junk people spew.  It is really about Tyrion driving a wedge between Jamie/Cersie if he can.......watch.....that'll play out.

Of course it is reasonable if she doesn't understand the AoD threat really.  Which she doesn't until they take out her dragon.  And what are you talking about abandoning?  She hasn't abandoned anything.  Until she left to save Jon/Jorah....she had refused to abandon her goals for the AoD threat.

However, she has seen the AoD threat now and she is now prepared to put the IT aside and fight the REAL THREAT.....

She just realizes huh?  You talked about a vision earlier.  Now you are saying, that without seeing the AoD she suddenly recognizes how off base her refusing to help Jon has been (in fairness she gave him the dragonglass but she did think it was worthless and it was a political tactic).   She is risking her life for JORAH/JON.....they are not "nothing."

What epiphany by Stannis?  This must come from the books.

There will be a battle for the wall.  And the dragon will be key to taking it down.   The books will probably use some way far fetched way the wall is taken down using magic horns or whatever but the show has to get past the "magic wall" (Sam mentions the wall is supposed to have magic built into it in the show).

Magic dragon to take down magic wall.....show solution.

Magic horn or magic dragon or some form of magic to take down magic wall......book solution.

The show established that magic protects the wall from the WW passing according to Sam's book lernin.  So, a solution must be presented.......what does the show have as a potential solution.......dragons.

Ok, this entire post is making my head spin. I'm not even sure you know what your point is yourself.

Dany suing for a temporary peace with the Lannisters is a major plot point this season. When she does this, she has just destroyed the Lannisters entire army and is poised to take the defenceless KL. There will never be a better time than now to overthrow Cersei and claim the IT for herself. All she has to do is strike. So what does Dany do? She negotiated a truce! Why? To give Jon time to bag a wight. This most definitely counts as her putting her plans on hold, tantamount to declaring that the success of Jon's mission is, right now, more important than reclaiming the IT. There is literally no other reason presented for why she does this. Even if she still wants the IT, which she clearly does, she is declaring it less of a priority than what Jon is up to up north. She does this based on his word alone. If you think that's stupid, I completely agree with you but that's what D&D wrote.

Jamie and the Lannisters are completely irrelevant unless she believes their help is needed in fighting the NK (not sure why anybody would think that). She doesn't need Jaime to take KL *right now*

So, she's flying north to save her creepy stalker and a guy who she's known for a couple of weeks and finds physically attractive. And she's able to do this because she's already put all her other plans and responsibilities on hold to allow these two idiots to complete a mission she believes to be useless. Rather than being conflicted about her duties and desires she flies north because she literally has nothing more important to do right now. 

Please quote where I talk about a vision. Stannis deciding to go North to help the NW because that's the King's *duty* is a major part of the show as well. You know, when the grumpy guy showed up in season 4 finale to save everybody? When he *just realised* that calling himself King was meaningless if he wasn't protecting the realm?

I'm saying she should be conflicted. She should struggle with this decision because it's not all straightforward. She should have doubts about whether she should have offered more support. A letter from her trusted lieutenant or willingness by Jon to compromise on his previously unassailable position might turn the doubt into a realisation she might have made a mistake. There, an epiphany.

Exactly, there will be a battle for the Wall. By all accounts in the very next episode. Which is exactly why, if you want an epic battle to provide drama for the season, it is the perfect choice and there's absolutely no need to make up some BS convoluted plot about bagging a wight when you have dozens of plausible reasons for characters to converge at the Wall for a battle anyway without straining credibility.

Characters clearly believed that the Wall couldn't stop the NK for long pre-dragon so there's no real reason to explain it. Hell, the show even had a ready explanation - the NK touching Bran nullified the cave's defences and Bran is now south of the Wall. Worst case scenario you say the NK is *that* powerful or you make something else up. Even if you don't explain it *at all* it's definitely better to have one potential plot hole than turning the entire season into series upon series of plot holes and contrivances just to avoid it. And again, if the solution is dragon, having Dany come to the Wall to protect it makes a lot more sense than her flying to protect a random party of wight-baggers. Why should *she* think the Wall is magic?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ok, this entire post is making my head spin. I'm not even sure you know what your point is yourself.

 

Don't even try. Obviously this poster has clearly decided to defend the show plot no matter what. He will use any kind of arguments, even repeating old ones that have already been debunked and ignoring direct responses when they don't suit his arguments. 

Your plot is solid, way better than what we got form the show. What it comes to prove that many people, if were given the hard task to write backwards form a given plot point, would do a much better job that the show writers.

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24 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ok, this entire post is making my head spin. I'm not even sure you know what your point is yourself.

Dany suing for a temporary peace with the Lannisters is a major plot point this season. When she does this, she has just destroyed the Lannisters entire army and is poised to take the defenceless KL. There will never be a better time than now to overthrow Cersei and claim the IT for herself. All she has to do is strike. So what does Dany do? She negotiated a truce! Why? To give Jon time to bag a wight. This most definitely counts as her putting her plans on hold, tantamount to declaring that the success of Jon's mission is, right now, more important than reclaiming the IT. There is literally no other reason presented for why she does this. Even if she still wants the IT, which she clearly does, she is declaring it less of a priority than what Jon is up to up north. She does this based on his word alone. If you think that's stupid, I completely agree with you but that's what D&D wrote.

Jamie and the Lannisters are completely irrelevant unless she believes their help is needed in fighting the NK (not sure why anybody would think that). She doesn't need Jaime to take KL *right now*

So, she's flying north to save her creepy stalker and a guy who she's known for a couple of weeks and finds physically attractive. And she's able to do this because she's already put all her other plans and responsibilities on hold to allow these two idiots to complete a mission she believes to be useless. Rather than being conflicted about her duties and desires she flies north because she literally has nothing more important to do right now. 

Please quote where I talk about a vision. Stannis deciding to go North to help the NW because that's the King's *duty* is a major part of the show as well. You know, when the grumpy guy showed up in season 4 finale to save everybody? When he *just realised* that calling himself King was meaningless if he wasn't protecting the realm?

I'm saying she should be conflicted. She should struggle with this decision because it's not all straightforward. She should have doubts about whether she should have offered more support. A letter from her trusted lieutenant or willingness by Jon to compromise on his previously unassailable position might turn the doubt into a realisation she might have made a mistake. There, an epiphany.

Exactly, there will be a battle for the Wall. By all accounts in the very next episode. Which is exactly why, if you want an epic battle to provide drama for the season, it is the perfect choice and there's absolutely no need to make up some BS convoluted plot about bagging a wight when you have dozens of plausible reasons for characters to converge at the Wall for a battle anyway without straining credibility.

Characters clearly believed that the Wall couldn't stop the NK for long pre-dragon so there's no real reason to explain it. Hell, the show even had a ready explanation - the NK touching Bran nullified the cave's defences and Bran is now south of the Wall. Worst case scenario you say the NK is *that* powerful or you make something else up. Even if you don't explain it *at all* it's definitely better to have one potential plot hole than turning the entire season into series upon series of plot holes and contrivances just to avoid it. And again, if the solution is dragon, having Dany come to the Wall to protect it makes a lot more sense than her flying to protect a random party of wight-baggers. Why should *she* think the Wall is magic?

 

 

Great, great stuff.

Truly epic, classic, and profound.

My favorite parts were the references to the creepy stalker, the grumpy guy, and the wight-baggers.

You are a very good writer, I enjoyed it all, and I thank you for your contributions here.

But hey, are we sure that the chemistry between Jon and Dany is just based on physical attractiveness?  I mean, sure, that's important, and I DO believe it's a piece of this particular puzzle, but personally I think there's some more going on here, too.

Jon and Dany were both virtually unique...until they met each other.  Now, don't get me wrong, Jonerys is not how I would have written the story (I would have had Dany with Daario and Jon with Val), but could I see Jon and Dany connecting?  Sure.  And I don't think it's just physical lust, but even if it is, I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that at this point in their lives.

Some people meet, and immediately have VERY strong attractions to each other.  It happens.  Do you believe in love at first sight? Does the answer to that question depend on how we define "love"?  I think it does...

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5 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

One guy thinks Jon was proposing a pincer move...

He was. Or rather that was the suggestion of Davos, to which Jon assented. Remember, the plan was to have Ramsey charge them. Then, "if we let him buckle our center, he'll pursue. We'll have him surrounded on three sides." Otherwise known as a double envelopment or pincer move. 

Just because they brought up the word "pincer" in reference to Stannis doesn't mean they weren't planning a pincer move themselves. 

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1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

OMG.

He was not.  My goodness.

They were planning to give in their front lines in a fake line break and then, as a result of Ramsey pushing forward in their center they'd have him surrounded on three sides.

They weren't planning a pincer move.

Some of you need a military tactics handbook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pincer_movement

Notice the army divides itself and then attacks from two sides.

Davos.....we'll have him surrounded on three sides....

It wasn't a pincer move they were planning.  It was them going to deceive Ramsey.....which Sansa said wouldn't happen....he doesn't fall into traps like your fake line collapse (not a pincer move).....he sets traps (he's going to get you to go into his plan by playing you).

This is a complaint based on not understanding the conversation and terminology.

If you do a fake line break and surround your enemy on three sides, you're going to be hitting them on both flanks at once. Attacking both flanks at once is the definition of a pincer move. Pincers do not have to involve dividing your army in two. After all, a crab's pincers are connected in the middle, aren't they? 

I implore you to look up the Battle of Cannae. That was the inspiration for Davos' strategy, and it is a textbook example of double envelopment. In fact, it's easily the most famous historical example of a pincer move, and it happened just as Davos described. 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

It was them going to deceive Ramsey.....which Sansa said wouldn't happen....he doesn't fall into traps like your fake line collapse (not a pincer move).....he sets traps (he's going to get you to go into his plan by playing you

Ramsey doesn't fall into traps. Except somehow the Vale forces trapped him in Winterfell.

But that doesn't count, because Ramsey can't be held responsible for knowing when entire armies pass through hundreds of miles of his territory. 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

If you do a fake line break and surround your enemy on three sides, you're going to be hitting them on both flanks at once. Attacking both flanks at once is the definition of a pincer move. Pincers do not have to involve dividing your army in two. After all, a crab's pincers are connected in the middle, aren't they? 

I implore you to look up the Battle of Cannae. That was the inspiration for Davos' strategy, and it is a textbook example of double envelopment. In fact, it's easily the most famous historical example of a pincer move, and it happened just as Davos described. 

Ok, I'll concede it is similar to a pincer movement but they never describe attacking the rear or the force and a pincer is supposed to encircle the enemy in the end and connect behind them if I recall correctly.

They were not going to a pincer movement whereby he moved his troops first similar to modern versions with mechanized units.  He was going to create the flank attacks by giving ground.  And they don't mention connecting in the rear and having Ramsey surrounded like in a true pincer movement like the Battle of Cannae.  Very similar battle plan though, that's for sure.

Anyway, the point was the plan wasn't bad at all......the execution was bad.....due to Sansa's prediction.

I'd think having a battleplan similar to a famous one from history would indicate Jon was fine with tactics just not good at controlling his emotions when it comes to Rickon.....

 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Ramsey doesn't fall into traps. Except somehow the Vale forces trapped him in Winterfell.

But that doesn't count, because Ramsey can't be held responsible for knowing when entire armies pass through hundreds of miles of his territory. 

Ramsey got caught with his pants down.

I wouldn't call it a trap.  Unless you are saying Sansa set the trap which would actually make sense.....she knew Ramsey better than Jon/Davos and knew their simple trap would fail.....and he wouldn't see her's coming.

But it wasn't a trap imo......it was just he was caught by surprise due to unexpected reinforcements showing up from his rear.

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1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

Anyway, the point was the plan wasn't bad at all......the execution was bad.....due to Sansa's prediction.

 

Yes, but Sansa's prediction was as vague as possible and not helpful. Except insofar as it could've persuaded Jon to control his emotions. But who needs to be told "don't attack an entire army by yourself?" That's all Sansa's advice amounted to, in a practical sense. 

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