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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes, but Sansa's prediction was as vague as possible and not helpful. Except insofar as it could've persuaded Jon to control his emotions. But who needs to be told "don't attack an entire army by yourself?" That's all Sansa's advice amounted to, in a practical sense. 

That's why I say it wasn't a trap.  It was him being caught by surprised due to reinforcements arriving just in time.

Happened in war many times.

The confederacy "won" many battles due to just in time reinforcements arriving from far off.

Edited by Lord Okra

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18 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Unless you are saying Sansa set the trap which would actually make sense.....she knew Ramsey better than Jon/Davos and knew their simple trap would fail

I wish I could say that was her plan, because it would mean she was an interesting, smart, ambitious character, instead of a traitor who lost faith in her allies and got lucky they weren't annihilated. 

The show gave her far too much credit. She didn't really know Ramsey better, because she was locked up in a tower when he wasn't raping or otherwise terrorizing her. Unless Reek filled her in on some of the finer points of his personality, which I suppose is possible. But Jon and Davos could've guessed he was a clever tactician from the fact that he beat Stannis in battle. 

Thing is, I don't know about the world of Westeros, but in the Real world everyone knows that double envelopment is a possibility. Even smart commanders can blunder into them. The point of the plan was that they should be patient, so of course Jon nearly lost the battle because he was impatient.

There wasn't any subtlety to Ramsey's plan. The only really clever plan Ramsey had was getting that fort to surrender by using Reek. Elsewhere, and including the Battle of the Bastards, he got by on blunt force terror. Which worked on Jon, but we're stuck on the level of feelings and emotions and family and character instead of military strategy. Which is where the show put us, and for good reason. It's a drama, not a textbook. But I just want to say, Sansa's advice, such as it was, was basically meaningless in tactical or strategic terms.

She had a good point about needing more troops, but that's only become she kept the existence of the Vale army from everyone. Far as they knew, there was no available source of men as far south as Riverrun, where they tried to recruit the Blackfish. It's easy to look smart when you're sitting on a piece of intelligence possessed by no one else. 

Edited by darmody

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10 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

That's why I say it wasn't a trap.  It was him being caught by surprised due to reinforcements arriving just in time.

If I catch you offguard and trap you in a castle, does it matter so much whether you call that a "trap" or merely a surprise attack that leads to being trapped? Either way, you're trapped. 

If Ramsey's so clever that none of Jon and Davos' little tricks could trap him, why was he caught with his pants down? Because he's just Ramsey, that's why. He wasn't a supervillain.

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3 minutes ago, darmody said:

If I catch you offguard and trap you in a castle, does it matter so much whether you call that a "trap" or merely a surprise attack that leads to being trapped? Either way, you're trapped. 

If Ramsey's so clever that none of Jon and Davos' little tricks could trap him, why was he caught with his pants down? Because he's just Ramsey, that's why. He wasn't a supervillain.

Nobody set a trap for Ramsey that he fell into.

He ended up trapped but not because of Jon's battle plans or Sansa's well laid plans.....

He endedup trapped due to unforseen and unplanned by anyone circumstances........reinforcements arriving JIT.

Events take a course all their own sometimes.  We see this a lot in the show.

LF is suffering through unforeseen events even though he .....fights every battle, everywhere, all the time....in his head....cool LF, too bad you didn't fight the battle vs the guy who can see all your past.....didn't see that one coming huh?

Yeah, sometimes you just are outdone by things you can't foresee and predict.

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3 hours ago, darmody said:

If I catch you offguard and trap you in a castle, does it matter so much whether you call that a "trap" or merely a surprise attack that leads to being trapped? Either way, you're trapped. 

If Ramsey's so clever that none of Jon and Davos' little tricks could trap him, why was he caught with his pants down? Because he's just Ramsey, that's why. He wasn't a supervillain.

Well, Ramsay was a fool, plain and simple.

If he had just stayed inside Winterfell and defended it, he would have crushed Jon and his allies, even including the Knights of the Vale.

But instead, Ramsay did something incredibly stupid, venturing out into the field and giving up the HUGE advantage he would have had by just staying holed up in Winterfell.

All those archers Ramsay had could have just sat up on the walls of Winterfell, picking off Jon's men like fish in a barrel from point blank range, and the cavalry of the Knights of the Vale would have been utterly useless (Ever see cavalry attack and take a castle? Me neither.)

My goodness, Jon didn't even have siege weapons.

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

My goodness, Jon didn't even have siege weapons.

He had a giant. Though I don't think Ramsey realized that until the battle was already met. 

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37 minutes ago, darmody said:

He had a giant. Though I don't think Ramsey realized that until the battle was already met. 

A giant with no weapon.  I mean, good grief.  He used a tree at Hardhome so are the southern trees not to his liking?

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2 hours ago, darmody said:

He had a giant. Though I don't think Ramsey realized that until the battle was already met. 

Yes, Jon had a giant, but he blundered away that asset, too.  (There is at least one entire thread devoted to MANY ways Wun Wun could have been used more effectively.  The suggestions go on and on and on, and many are quite clever.)

And after Wun Wun broke down the gate, Ramsay's men filled him with arrows, and Wun Wun dropped very quickly.  Well, if Ramsay had had those archers up on the walls filling Wun Wun with arrows as he APPROACHED, and maybe as he BEGAN to batter the gate, it's very likely Wun Wun would not have breached the gate at all.

And even if Wun Wun HAD broken down the gate, the archers still could have continued to do massive damage to Jon's forces as they approached the gate, passed through the gate, and were just inside the gate, and Ramsay's melee soldiers could have been defending a tight bottleneck instead of being exposed out in the open field.

Even as it was, Ramsay had the battle won, until the cavalry of the KotV showed up, but like I said, cavalry is useless for attacking a fortified castle. I don't believe I've ever seen men on horses portrayed as attacking a castle in my life.  What would the horses do, charge at the walls??

Jon had NOTHING else that even remotely resembled siege weapons besides Wun Wun.  No battering ram, catapults, trebuchets, siege towers, ladders, NOTHING.  What WAS Jon's plan, anyway?  What would Jon have done if Ramsay had not foolishly abandoned the easily defended walls of Winterfell?  Who knows?  We'll never know, cuz Ramsay was an utter fool.

Neither Jon nor Sansa "won" the Battle of the Bastards, Ramsay foolishly lost it..  

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12 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Don't even try. Obviously this poster has clearly decided to defend the show plot no matter what. He will use any kind of arguments, even repeating old ones that have already been debunked and ignoring direct responses when they don't suit his arguments. 

Your plot is solid, way better than what we got form the show. What it comes to prove that many people, if were given the hard task to write backwards form a given plot point, would do a much better job that the show writers.

Thank you, I thought I was going crazy lol :cheers:

11 hours ago, Cron said:

Great, great stuff.

Truly epic, classic, and profound.

My favorite parts were the references to the creepy stalker, the grumpy guy, and the wight-baggers.

You are a very good writer, I enjoyed it all, and I thank you for your contributions here.

But hey, are we sure that the chemistry between Jon and Dany is just based on physical attractiveness?  I mean, sure, that's important, and I DO believe it's a piece of this particular puzzle, but personally I think there's some more going on here, too.

Jon and Dany were both virtually unique...until they met each other.  Now, don't get me wrong, Jonerys is not how I would have written the story (I would have had Dany with Daario and Jon with Val), but could I see Jon and Dany connecting?  Sure.  And I don't think it's just physical lust, but even if it is, I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that at this point in their lives.

Some people meet, and immediately have VERY strong attractions to each other.  It happens.  Do you believe in love at first sight? Does the answer to that question depend on how we define "love"?  I think it does...

Thank you for your kind words, I'm glad you liked it :)

I think with Jon and Dany it is important to distinguish between the potential of a relationship as between the characters in the books or even the show and what was actually portrayed on screen in season 7.

I absolutely think that regardless of whether you believe Jonerys is the endgame, Jon and Dany's arcs have paralleled each other since season 1 and they have a very similar approach to the major issues. I think this will result, at the very least, in them developing a great respect for each other. 

There are so many shared experiences they could connect over - they both were forced to spend time in a foreign culture that made them question their approach to life and where they had to use their wits and strength to survive without losing their identity. They are both to a large extent chosen leaders that did not derive their authority from their birth but from their followers deeply believing in them. They both struggled with choosing between their duty to their family and doing the right thing. They both take the welfare of thier people very seriously and have made sacrifices and compromised to protect them (which is why Dany would find Jon declaring his intention to return North to protect his people so compelling - it's exactly what she would do). And of course, it's lonely at the top and for both this is a rare opportunity to interact with an equal sharing the same burden of responsibility with the same kind of doubts about the correctness of their own decisions.

The issue is that I don't think we get a truly personal scene between them showing them establishing an emotional connection. Their most intimate scene is in the cave and they talk about the white walkers. Jon doesn't even share his own experiences fighting the WW and how that's affected him. It's just politics. It looks like they might share a moment when he pets Drogon but that's immediately interrupted by Jorah the Cockblocking Mormont before they can discuss their feelings.

At the same time we get various characters commenting on how they allegedly find each other physically attractive (footage not found?) but at no point does either discuss how they admire each others achievements or personality traits or commitment to thier shared values. The result is that their scene on the boat which should be a catharsis of growing mutual admiration is instead the first moment of genuine human connection between them making their relationship come across as chiefly lust. Of course, YMMW but that's my take on it.

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What we're seeing here is proof that David Benioff and Dan Weiss are not writers.  They're promoters.  Marketing guys.  They have hyped up the show but the show fails to deliver on many important areas.  A few more episodes like this and the show will no longer be taken seriously.  Right now, the show is the butt of so many jokes here, on youtube, and so on. 

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34 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

What we're seeing here is proof that David Benioff and Dan Weiss are not writers.  They're promoters.  Marketing guys.  They have hyped up the show but the show fails to deliver on many important areas.  A few more episodes like this and the show will no longer be taken seriously.  Right now, the show is the butt of so many jokes here, on youtube, and so on. 

I agree, they first choose the major events and cool visuals they absolutely want to put in the season, giving to fan service the priority in the choice, and then they lazily try to glue these major events and visuals with a weak plot, on which they don't spend enough time because they already know that the less demanding fans (namely, the vast majority) will be ok with whatever they're given. 

It's just marketing strategy, and they only care about selling their product in the same way a corporation sells a shampoo. I'm not even saying this with anger. It's just the way it is. 

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58 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

I agree, they first choose the major events and cool visuals they absolutely want to put in the season, giving to fan service the priority in the choice, and then they lazily try to glue these major events and visuals with a weak plot, on which they don't spend enough time because they already know that the less demanding fans (namely, the vast majority) will be ok with whatever they're given. 

It's just marketing strategy, and they only care about selling their product in the same way a corporation sells a shampoo. I'm not even saying this with anger. It's just the way it is. 

I disagree with some of that. I think many of the issues are simply down to the number of episodes and an urge to increase the pace and go out with a bang. 

I wouldn't describe it as a marketing ploy rather it's about giving the audience what they want. On one level they are right, many people I know thought these are some of the best episodes ever. 

That doesn't mean that I think they did a good job, they didn't. But that their motivations are probably a lot less cynical than those you are describing 

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On 21.08.2017 at 5:30 AM, Cron said:

While Jon & Company are confronting the Army of the Dead, Gendry is sent to run back to Eastwatch, where a raven is sent to Dany on Dragonstone, then Dany hops on a dragon, and flies all the way back and makes it in time to save the expedition to capture a wight???

Face it, friends.  Reasonable continuity in terms of travel through time and space is out the window.

Completely out the window.

Actually it isn't.

Based on amount of light I would say that this could be an approximate time frame of their expedition:

7 am - went thru gates at Eastwatch.

12 am - encounter with Undead polar bear (it's dark because of the blizzard).

1 pm - saw group of wights and White Walker. Then went ahead of them, went down into that ravine, prepared a trap and waited. 

2 pm - sent Gendry back.

4 pm - Gendry reached the gate, and they sent raven to Dragonstone.

next day 5 am - Dany departed from Dragonstone. At that time it's already bright morning at Dragonstone, because it's located in different time zone than Eastwatch, sun rises there few hours earlier. When Dany departs from Dragonstone, it's still dark at Eastwatch, and group at frozer lake is still sleeping at this time.

8:00-8:30 am - they woke up at frozen lake and burned Toras. Hound threw stone at one of the wights. The fight begins.

8:45 am - Dany arrived to frozen lake. Departed from there 5-10 minutes later.

9 am - uncle Benjen gave his horse to Jon.

3:30 pm - Jon came back to Eastwatch.

next day 9 am - Jon wakes up in his cabin.

A bit of math:

Spoiler

From 7 am to 1 pm (for 6 hours) they went forward moving further away from Eastwatch. 1pm-2pm - they haven't walked further from The Wall, they were moving parallel to it, and most part of this time interval they waited in hiding. First hour of their expedition 7am-8am they were moving slowly, because it was still rather dark, early morning twilight, limited visibility, so they were carfully choosing their footing and walking at about half speed. Next times when they were shown it was already bright outside (8am-12am). For 4 hours they were moving at full speed (walking pace). Though during those 4 hours they were making small stops to drink, to talk, to retie their shoes, etc. 12am-1pm because of the blizzard, and limited visibility, and strong winds, they were moving at about quarter speed, afterwards they were substantially slowed downed because Toras was badly wounded.

In total they walked 1/2X (7-8am) + 4X (8-12am) + 1/4X (12am-1pm) + 1/4X (1pm-2pm) =  5X (X is distance). On his way back Gendry covered that distance in two hours, he was running 2,5 times faster than their full speed of walking. Raven flew for 12 hours (4pm-4am). For one hour after that Dany was braiding her hair and choosing what to wear. She departed from Dragonston at 5 am, and arrived to frozen lake at 8:45 am.

So distance equal to (2 hours of Gendry running + 12 hours of raven flying) = about 3:30 hours of dragonflight. And she spent another 15 minutes on scouting them beyond the Wall, or on her way there she stopped at Easwatch and talked to Gendry to find out from him their final known location.

9 am-3:30 pm - six and half hours, most part of that time Jon was unconsciousness, so his horse was walking slowly, and reached Eastwatch when evening twilight was starting to descend.

32 and half hours to go there and back. So there was no teleporting.

Edited by Megorova

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So the army of the dead is camped out 4 hours from Eastwatch?  And this is your idea of reasonable continuity?

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5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Thank you, I thought I was going crazy lol :cheers:

Thank you for your kind words, I'm glad you liked it :)

I think with Jon and Dany it is important to distinguish between the potential of a relationship as between the characters in the books or even the show and what was actually portrayed on screen in season 7.

I absolutely think that regardless of whether you believe Jonerys is the endgame, Jon and Dany's arcs have paralleled each other since season 1 and they have a very similar approach to the major issues. I think this will result, at the very least, in them developing a great respect for each other. 

There are so many shared experiences they could connect over - they both were forced to spend time in a foreign culture that made them question their approach to life and where they had to use their wits and strength to survive without losing their identity. They are both to a large extent chosen leaders that did not derive their authority from their birth but from their followers deeply believing in them. They both struggled with choosing between their duty to their family and doing the right thing. They both take the welfare of thier people very seriously and have made sacrifices and compromised to protect them (which is why Dany would find Jon declaring his intention to return North to protect his people so compelling - it's exactly what she would do). And of course, it's lonely at the top and for both this is a rare opportunity to interact with an equal sharing the same burden of responsibility with the same kind of doubts about the correctness of their own decisions.

The issue is that I don't think we get a truly personal scene between them showing them establishing an emotional connection. Their most intimate scene is in the cave and they talk about the white walkers. Jon doesn't even share his own experiences fighting the WW and how that's affected him. It's just politics. It looks like they might share a moment when he pets Drogon but that's immediately interrupted by Jorah the Cockblocking Mormont before they can discuss their feelings.

At the same time we get various characters commenting on how they allegedly find each other physically attractive (footage not found?) but at no point does either discuss how they admire each others achievements or personality traits or commitment to thier shared values. The result is that their scene on the boat which should be a catharsis of growing mutual admiration is instead the first moment of genuine human connection between them making their relationship come across as chiefly lust. Of course, YMMW but that's my take on it.

Well said.  I actually think Jonerys has been one of the most successful arcs of this season and has been relatively well-done.  You just can't truly portray a relationship like this developing in 5 episodes as opposed to the 10+ or maybe even 20+ episodes it would get if there was not such a time crunch.  I'd also add there are probably issues as far as acting goes that apply to Kit and Emilia- neither is the most expressive actor and I think for example physical attraction is something at the very least Kit was supposed to be playing from the start towards Dany (Kit has said as much in interviews), but you never really got that from what was on screen.  I still haven't really gotten that from Kit.  Emilia has been more successful portraying that developing attraction, which I think I would say for her started in the cave scene but really developed last week with Drogon and then Jon's decision to go North with Jorah.  

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2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Well said.  I actually think Jonerys has been one of the most successful arcs of this season and has been relatively well-done.  You just can't truly portray a relationship like this developing in 5 episodes as opposed to the 10+ or maybe even 20+ episodes it would get if there was not such a time crunch.  I'd also add there are probably issues as far as acting goes that apply to Kit and Emilia- neither is the most expressive actor and I think for example physical attraction is something at the very least Kit was supposed to be playing from the start towards Dany (Kit has said as much in interviews), but you never really got that from what was on screen.  I still haven't really gotten that from Kit.  Emilia has been more successful portraying that developing attraction, which I think I would say for her started in the cave scene but really developed last week with Drogon and then Jon's decision to go North with Jorah.  

Weren't Dany and Drogo in love within the first 3 or 4 episodes?  So I think it can be done.  I don't see the chemistry and I agree the two actors, being among the weakest links in the show, are challenged to show the attraction.  But, it seems a little strange to keep having other characters comment on the attraction....as if the show isn't confident that Kit and Emilia can "show" it.  But, this is the least of the show's issues at this point, at least according to me.

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23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Actually it isn't.

Based on amount of light I would say that this could be an approximate time frame of their expedition:

7 am - went thru gates at Eastwatch.

12 am - encounter with Undead polar bear (it's dark because of the blizzard).

1 pm - saw group of wights and White Walker. Then went ahead of them, went down into that ravine, prepared a trap and waited. 

2 pm - sent Gendry back.

4 pm - Gendry reached the gate, and they sent raven to Dragonstone.

next day 5 am - Dany departed from Dragonstone. At that time it's already bright morning at Dragonstone, because it's located in different time zone than Eastwatch, sun rises there few hours earlier. When Dany departs from Dragonstone, it's still dark at Eastwatch, and group at frozer lake is still sleeping at this time.

8:00-8:30 am - they woke up at frozen lake and burned Toras. Hound threw stone at one of the wights. The fight begins.

8:45 am - Dany arrived to frozen lake. Departed from there 5-10 minutes later.

9 am - uncle Benjen gave his horse to Jon.

3:30 pm - Jon came back to Eastwatch.

next day 9 am - Jon wakes up in his cabin.

A bit of math:

  Reveal hidden contents

From 7 am to 1 pm (for 6 hours) they went forward moving further away from Eastwatch. 1pm-2pm - they haven't walked further from The Wall, they were moving parallel to it, and most part of this time interval they waited in hiding. First hour of their expedition 7am-8am they were moving slowly, because it was still rather dark, early morning twilight, limited visibility, so they were carfully choosing their footing and walking at about half speed. Next times when they were shown it was already bright outside (8am-12am). For 4 hours they were moving at full speed (walking pace). Though during those 4 hours they were making small stops to drink, to talk, to retie their shoes, etc. 12am-1pm because of the blizzard, and limited visibility, and strong winds, they were moving at about quarter speed, afterwards they were substantially slowed downed because Toras was badly wounded.

In total they walked 1/2X (7-8am) + 4X (8-12am) + 1/4X (12am-1pm) + 1/4X (1pm-2pm) =  5X. On his way back Gendry covered that distance in two hours, he was running 2,5 times faster than their full speed of walking. Raven flew for 12 hours (4pm-4am). For one hour after that Dany was braiding her hair and choosing what to wear. She departed from Dragonston at 5 am, and arrived to frozen lake at 8:45 am.

So distance equal to (2 hours of Gendry running + 12 hours of raven flying) = about 3:30 hours of dragonflight. And she spent another 15 minutes on scouting them beyond the Wall, or on her way there she stopped at Easwatch and talked to Gendry to find out from him their final known location.

9 am-3:30 pm - six and half hours, most part of that time Jon was unconsciousness, so his horse was walking slowly, and reached Eastwatch when evening twilight was starting to descend.

32 and half hours to go there and back. So there was no teleporting.

Actually Dany arrived at Eastwatch at 8:05 am but had to fill out paperwork before taking off again due to Drogon hitting a raven while landing. 

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48 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I disagree with some of that. I think many of the issues are simply down to the number of episodes and an urge to increase the pace and go out with a bang. 

Some problems might also be due to the lack of time. However, since much time is often wasted in irrelevant scenes, and many solutions were proposed in this forum that would improve the episodes without requiring additional time, I'm not satisfied with this justification. 

53 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I wouldn't describe it as a marketing ploy rather it's about giving the audience what they want. 

Isn't "giving the audience what they want" a form of "marketing ploy" ?

57 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

On one level they are right, many people I know thought these are some of the best episodes ever. 

Of course, it's a winning strategy. That's precisely the point I'm making. 

58 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

But that their motivations are probably a lot less cynical than those you are describing 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that we are essentially saying the same thing, even if I'm using stronger words. And I don't even find it that cynical. It's true also for, let's say, the last Star Wars. It was a decent movie in its category, in my opinion, but it was mainly driven by the objective of being appealing to the largest possible number of fans. And if J J Abrams had had an idea that despite being brilliant would have reduced the number of fans satisfied, he would have probably avoided using it.  

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5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Thank you, I thought I was going crazy lol :cheers:

Thank you for your kind words, I'm glad you liked it :)

I think with Jon and Dany it is important to distinguish between the potential of a relationship as between the characters in the books or even the show and what was actually portrayed on screen in season 7.

Regarding what was on screen, I know this is dissatisfying and less than ideal, but we've got to make at least some allowances for the time and budget constraints of the show.   Yes, I know, it's not ideal for us to have to fill in the blanks with our imaginations, but my understanding is that Jon was actually on Dragonstone for WEEKS, and it's quite possible they did share such moments as you describe.

Which is why, of course, to me, a book is almost ALWAYS better than an adaptation, or even a movie or show which was never a book. A book has a vastly larger mental canvas to paint on, almost unlimited in fact.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the show is perfect, or that the relationship could not have been developed more smoothly (rather than abruptly) 

Still though, in light of other factors (which you cover QUITE well below, and we'll get to in a moment), and given the very realistic strong physical attraction between them, I'm willing to cut some slack in this other area.

 

5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

I absolutely think that regardless of whether you believe Jonerys is the endgame, Jon and Dany's arcs have paralleled each other since season 1 and they have a very similar approach to the major issues. I think this will result, at the very least, in them developing a great respect for each other. 

There are so many shared experiences they could connect over - they both were forced to spend time in a foreign culture that made them question their approach to life and where they had to use their wits and strength to survive without losing their identity. They are both to a large extent chosen leaders that did not derive their authority from their birth but from their followers deeply believing in them. They both struggled with choosing between their duty to their family and doing the right thing. They both take the welfare of thier people very seriously and have made sacrifices and compromised to protect them (which is why Dany would find Jon declaring his intention to return North to protect his people so compelling - it's exactly what she would do). And of course, it's lonely at the top and for both this is a rare opportunity to interact with an equal sharing the same burden of responsibility with the same kind of doubts about the correctness of their own decisions.

Hey, thanks for typing all that, you saved me the trouble, and laid out most of my position for me!  HAR!  Yes, I agree with it all.

5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

The issue is that I don't think we get a truly personal scene between them showing them establishing an emotional connection. Their most intimate scene is in the cave and they talk about the white walkers. Jon doesn't even share his own experiences fighting the WW and how that's affected him. It's just politics. It looks like they might share a moment when he pets Drogon but that's immediately interrupted by Jorah the Cockblocking Mormont before they can discuss their feelings.

Whoa, ya got a salty tongue!  HAR!!

Very interesting.  And we seem to view Jorah very similarly.  To me, he's like a pathetic, lost puppy dog following Dany around, with no real personality or identity other than what he derives from his "relationship" with Dany, which is NEVER going beyond the friendzone.  In fact, she's made that crystal clear to him, and STILL he persists.  Frankly, I really enjoyed it last year when Daario basically told him he was acting like a buffoon, and Daario was right.  Jorah should listen to Daario, and heed his advice (I actually think Daario is pretty cool.  Like I said, if I was writing it, Dany would end up with Daario, and I still have not given up hope on that)

5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

At the same time we get various characters commenting on how they allegedly find each other physically attractive (footage not found?) but at no point does either discuss how they admire each others achievements or personality traits or commitment to thier shared values. The result is that their scene on the boat which should be a catharsis of growing mutual admiration is instead the first moment of genuine human connection between them making their relationship come across as chiefly lust. Of course, YMMW but that's my take on it.

"Love" and "lust" can be very complex things, and sometimes it's difficult to determine where one ends and the other begins.

I'm not saying lust is the only basis of attraction between Jon and Dany (far from it; see above), BUT...it can be a powerful contributor.

And even though Jon is pretty geeky about this sort of thing, Dany is not.  Dany is a very sexual person (like Ygritte), and I'm guessing that she'll aggressively pursue Jon in that way just like Ygritte did.

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Actually it isn't.

Based on amount of light I would say that this could be an approximate time frame of their expedition:

7 am - went thru gates at Eastwatch.

12 am - encounter with Undead polar bear (it's dark because of the blizzard).

1 pm - saw group of wights and White Walker. Then went ahead of them, went down into that ravine, prepared a trap and waited. 

2 pm - sent Gendry back.

4 pm - Gendry reached the gate, and they sent raven to Dragonstone.

next day 5 am - Dany departed from Dragonstone. At that time it's already bright morning at Dragonstone, because it's located in different time zone than Eastwatch, sun rises there few hours earlier. When Dany departs from Dragonstone, it's still dark at Eastwatch, and group at frozer lake is still sleeping at this time.

8:00-8:30 am - they woke up at frozen lake and burned Toras. Hound threw stone at one of the wights. The fight begins.

8:45 am - Dany arrived to frozen lake. Departed from there 5-10 minutes later.

9 am - uncle Benjen gave his horse to Jon.

3:30 pm - Jon came back to Eastwatch.

next day 9 am - Jon wakes up in his cabin.

A bit of math:

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From 7 am to 1 pm (for 6 hours) they went forward moving further away from Eastwatch. 1pm-2pm - they haven't walked further from The Wall, they were moving parallel to it, and most part of this time interval they waited in hiding. First hour of their expedition 7am-8am they were moving slowly, because it was still rather dark, early morning twilight, limited visibility, so they were carfully choosing their footing and walking at about half speed. Next times when they were shown it was already bright outside (8am-12am). For 4 hours they were moving at full speed (walking pace). Though during those 4 hours they were making small stops to drink, to talk, to retie their shoes, etc. 12am-1pm because of the blizzard, and limited visibility, and strong winds, they were moving at about quarter speed, afterwards they were substantially slowed downed because Toras was badly wounded.

In total they walked 1/2X (7-8am) + 4X (8-12am) + 1/4X (12am-1pm) + 1/4X (1pm-2pm) =  5X (X is distance). On his way back Gendry covered that distance in two hours, he was running 2,5 times faster than their full speed of walking. Raven flew for 12 hours (4pm-4am). For one hour after that Dany was braiding her hair and choosing what to wear. She departed from Dragonston at 5 am, and arrived to frozen lake at 8:45 am.

So distance equal to (2 hours of Gendry running + 12 hours of raven flying) = about 3:30 hours of dragonflight. And she spent another 15 minutes on scouting them beyond the Wall, or on her way there she stopped at Easwatch and talked to Gendry to find out from him their final known location.

9 am-3:30 pm - six and half hours, most part of that time Jon was unconsciousness, so his horse was walking slowly, and reached Eastwatch when evening twilight was starting to descend.

32 and half hours to go there and back. So there was no teleporting.

Have you ever done any hiking in mountains and through forests? I'd say from your estimated timeline here that you haven't. There's nothing realistic or doable about your timeline. Going into the ravine, around the patrol wights, and building that fire (where did they get the wood even?) takes more than an hour.

And you also do not take into account that the very first scene in the episode and both shots of Gendry arriving at the wall and Jon on horseback depicts a forest. The very first scene after the intro is the camera rolling across the Dragonstone map table, all the way to Eastwatch. And that map depicts triangular pine symbols, aka map symbol for "here there be forest", and goes more north to the area of Hardhome where they be hills and mountains. The southern edge of the forest is seen from where Dany's overlooking the area beyond the wall, as Benjen's horse with Jon on it returns. And they give us an aerial shot from there where no mountain is visible for Dany looking that way, while she's standing on a wall as high as a mountain. Ever stood on a peak of a mountain, or at a belltower of a cathedral and looked at the horizon? All you see within the horizon is at least worth 2 days ofhiking, depending on the area you'll be hiking (mountainous area is very very slow, forest is a PIA too). You see dark shadow of forest in the shot with Gendry again as he nears the wall and looks up, the scene before he drops down. That means that by the time we see them hiking in a forestless hill area, that we already skipped the biggest part of the journey really.

The show itself gives an extra map indication of where we see them hiking - beyond the Haunted Forest. They're basically as far north from Eastwatch as the Fist of the First Men is north of CB when we start to have the bro-bonding dialogue, before the polar bear. That would be at least 2 days after going through the gate, otherwise you'd see the mountain area from the wall at the horizon.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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