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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

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55 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And you think that THAT'S realistic? 300!!! miles of snowrunning?!

U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E.

Even more unbelievable than round trip there and back in just a 32 hours.

Nevertheless that roundabout trip did happened. Rewatch episode 6, and see it for yourself.

This post shows that you assume it was all realistic (despite the director admitting it wasn't really), and then assume short distances and assume what the travel time must have been, contradicting on-screen evidence. Which is nonsense.

We take the actual evidence that the show showed us about the area where they were hiking into account, and therefore correctly assume that they were well beyond Eastwatch's horizon. You could calculate the minimum distance of the horizon while standing atop the wall using triangulation from the wall's height, and again to estimate how far the first mountains are from the horizon to prevent not a mountain peak to be seen from there, and that is the minimal distance where they were. And the conclusion can only be that the speeds and times are unrealistic and physically impossible. Which is our point. Now, whether you mind that or not is personal opinion. It seems to me that you do mind it, otherwise you wouldn't even be trying to ignore evidence and create such a timeline.

Edited by sweetsunray

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You might have thought that once the director of the episode admitted that they fudged everything including the 'always twilight' lighting so no one could tell how much time had passed and admitted they were hitting the wall of implausibility but hoped the action would carry them over [paraphrase]....that this would be the end of the discussion.  They admitted that they fudged the timetime, so people attempting to "prove" that the admittedly fudged timeline is totally not fudged is a little odd.  

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38 minutes ago, Cron said:

We have NO reason to believe those ravens are magical, in books OR show.

None.

 

From wikia: TCOTF taught the First Men to use ravens to communicate over long distances. The greenseers of the children could change their skins and speak through the birds. Unlike humans, ravens can speak the True Tongue, the language of the children.Some drowned men of the Iron Islands believe that ravens are servants of the Storm God.

Also 3ER is mostly using them, and not some other birds or creatures.

Ravens are not average birds, the same as direwolves are not average wolves.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

No. 2 hours, distance 5X, speed 2,5X per hour. X could be between 2 and 5 miles. So he run distance between 10 and 25 miles, with speed 5 miles per hour or 12,5 miles per hour.

4 am

Why not? :huh: You're forgetting that those ravens are not average birds. In old days they all could talk, and even do some tricks. They are magical creatures.

Also in that scene when Bran found location of Undead army, his ravens found NK pretty fast. From what castle did they departed? - was it Winterfell or Eastwatch? Either way they were very fast.

What would be really astounding is dragons existence.

Dragons are magical creatures. What they can or can't do can't be mesured according to standarts of normal world. Also they are warm, so at least Dany is protected from freezing while she's riding them. They're like a giant furnace, full of warm and power.

And I wrote that raven covered that distance in 12 hours, so its speed would be 83 miles per hour, or 166 miles per hour <- absolutely realistical speed for magical birds from parallel world ^_^

For example in our world fastest bird is Peregrine falcon, able to exceed 200 mph in its hunting dives.

I understand that speed of hunting dives isn't the same thing as speed of average flight. Though if normal bird in real world can dive at speed over 200 mph, then magical bird in parallel world can fly as fast.

Golden eagle's maximum horizontal speed (that's an average flight) - 80 mph.

Gyrfalcon's maximum horizontal speed - 90 mph <- see, even real world bird can fly from Eastwatch to Dragonstone in less than 12 hours (if the distance is 1000 miles).

White-throated needletail - 105 mph <- see, we're so getting there on time ^_^

Dragon is bigger and faster than bird. If real world bird can fly at speed 105 mph, then I think that dragon can fly at least 3 times faster. Thus 1025 miles between Dragonstone and frozen lake covered in 3 and half hours seems realistical.

1025 miles in 3:30 hours is 293 mph. Funny that this exact speed was set as a record for Eurocopter X3 hybrid in 2013. Look at that chopper and imagine that it's Drogon.

Also estimate 2000 miles between Dragonstone and Eastwatch seems too farfetched. Westeros isn't THAT big.

Ok, my friend, I'm sorry to nitpick on this but you must realise this is complete bogus.

While I agree with your astute point that dragons are bigger and therefore faster, I can't agree with th rest. 

First, while I know it's commonly abbreviated as 5X the actual formula for calculating this is 16/πX. While this might be a minor point, in calculations of this precision one inaccuracy such as this and your butterflies are turning into dragons. You know how it is. Similarly, while earlier research indicates that the wights move 5 times faster than humans this has since been disproven with the correct number closer to 6.

Secondly, this completely ignores what has been established about the ravens in the show. In the very first season we have been shown the famous vortex that is at the heart of winter, the shadow pole of Planetos, that draws in and impales the lives of magical users. And as the well known Only death can pay for life formula tells us, every magical action creates an equal magical reaction. The ravens, magical birds that they are, have long since utilised this lifting force to propel themselves into the orbit in order to use the curvature of Planetos to then descend (at a diving speed) at their desired location. This is prominently featured  in Brans dreams. This is after all why the Wall is always the first to learn about things - like Dany's policies in Meereen - because every raven passes through the North first. The raven would therefore head north rather than south and your formula completely fails to account for the difference in the cruising speed to the north and the diving speed when descending on Dragon stone.  The overall time should be significantly shorter, due to Eastwatch's proximity to the heart of winter. 

The real question, and what strained the credibility for me a little bit, is why it took Dany so long.  This makes her seem a bit untrustworthy, as if she didn't care for the success of the mission, and makes me anxious about her seduction of Jon.

Edited by Maid So Fair

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6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

You just can't truly portray a relationship like this developing in 5 episodes as opposed to the 10+ or maybe even 20+ episodes it would get if there was not such a time crunch. 

Of course you could. It's been done in countless movies, which only get a couple of hours on average to do the job. 

Game of Thrones itself hasn't set up such a relationship as what I assume is required from Jon and Dany, really. Though it has had many successful romances. But they can work on the love story for the rest of the show's run. This season, they could at least have convinced me they're into eachother. I got that sense from the very first scene between Jon and Egret. It only took a few episodes between Dany and Drogo. 

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5 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

Isn't "giving the audience what they want" a form of "marketing ploy" ?

No. There's the way you sell the product, then there's the actual product. With marketing, you're getting people to think it's what they want,whether or not it actually ends up being what they want. (Or what they think they want.) If it ends up being what they want, but that's beyond marketing. 

Admittedly, though, the issue us more complicated. Because people can be tricked by marketing into thinking the actual consumption of the episode was better than it was. That's possible . But for simplicity's sake, let's just say that if people enjoy the final product as they view it, it's not just a matter of marketing on D&D's part. They truly deliver for a good portion of the audience. Enough of it, anyway, to make it one of the biggest shows on t.v.  

Maybe the audience won't come back to watch in later years as often as they will earlier, better seasons. But for now. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

You might have thought that once the director of the episode admitted that they fudged everything

What does he know? He knows nothing. Actual job is done by other people, and he himself does nearly nothing. Viewers complained to him that timeframe doesn't make sense, and he said - Ok.

Where on the map of far north that lake is located, or where were they going? According to maps forward from Eastwatch and nearly 1000 miles there's a Hounted forest, so what they went FURTHER than that forest? That can't be. Just can't. Because previous time Jon met with NK at Hardhome, and that location is closer than northern edge of Hounted forest. So that lake is somewhere on the line between Hardhome and Eastwatch, and that distance isn't that big. Though after their encounter NK turned west and killed there 3ER. Running from him Bran met uncle Benjen, that led them to Castle Black. Which means that then they were closer to CB than to EW. That lake should be somewhere between CB and EW, exactly where there's inscription - The Hounted Forest - figuratively it's somewhere undernear those letters. Undernear letter E in word Forest. About the same distance from Eastwatch, that Craster's Keep from Castle Black.

Edited by Megorova

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5 hours ago, Cron said:

Regarding what was on screen, I know this is dissatisfying and less than ideal, but we've got to make at least some allowances for the time and budget constraints of the show.   Yes, I know, it's not ideal for us to have to fill in the blanks with our imaginations, but my understanding is that Jon was actually on Dragonstone for WEEKS, and it's quite possible they did share such moments as you describe.

Which is why, of course, to me, a book is almost ALWAYS better than an adaptation, or even a movie or show which was never a book. A book has a vastly larger mental canvas to paint on, almost unlimited in fact.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the show is perfect, or that the relationship could not have been developed more smoothly (rather than abruptly) 

Still though, in light of other factors (which you cover QUITE well below, and we'll get to in a moment), and given the very realistic strong physical attraction between them, I'm willing to cut some slack in this other area.

 

Hey, thanks for typing all that, you saved me the trouble, and laid out most of my position for me!  HAR!  Yes, I agree with it all.

Whoa, ya got a salty tongue!  HAR!!

Very interesting.  And we seem to view Jorah very similarly.  To me, he's like a pathetic, lost puppy dog following Dany around, with no real personality or identity other than what he derives from his "relationship" with Dany, which is NEVER going beyond the friendzone.  In fact, she's made that crystal clear to him, and STILL he persists.  Frankly, I really enjoyed it last year when Daario basically told him he was acting like a buffoon, and Daario was right.  Jorah should listen to Daario, and heed his advice (I actually think Daario is pretty cool.  Like I said, if I was writing it, Dany would end up with Daario, and I still have not given up hope on that)

"Love" and "lust" can be very complex things, and sometimes it's difficult to determine where one ends and the other begins.

I'm not saying lust is the only basis of attraction between Jon and Dany (far from it; see above), BUT...it can be a powerful contributor.

And even though Jon is pretty geeky about this sort of thing, Dany is not.  Dany is a very sexual person (like Ygritte), and I'm guessing that she'll aggressively pursue Jon in that way just like Ygritte did.

 

I think we mostly agree on what Jon and Dany's realationship *should* be like and why. I think when it comes to the portrayal of their romance it might be the case of YMMV. It appears to have (mostly) worked for you but for me it wasn't too convincing. I understand of what they were trying to do but I just don't think it quite came together on screen.

Now you could say it's the actors or the direction, but I feel even more talented actors would have been hard press to convey a budding romance based on sultry looks alone and unfortunately the script gave them nothing else to dig their teeth into. Im not sure it can be explained as a time constraint either - we have several scenes of *other* characters discussing their mutual attraction. This screen time should have IMHO been given to the characters themselves. Instant attraction? Sure why not. But for me to buy it Is would expect to see characters who are inexplicably at ease around each other and quick to share intimacy. If they both just opened up to each other it would have been a very powerful scene and I think thllit would have sold their relationship much better. Instead the actors seem a bit distant - do they even touch each other before that boat scene?

Oh, good old Jorah. I'm not sure whether the book or the show version is worse, but he needs to die (this was my one big hope for the wight hunt). Show Jorah gets brownie points for being played by Iain Glenn but then he's also completely blase about bringing greyscale close to Dany. Book Jorah is more predatory. Both versions are slavers who spied on Dany and didn't respect her boundaries.

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

10 people - 10 horses = lot's of feed (i.e. food for horses).

They didn't knew how far they will have to go, or for how long they will have to stay there. Without knowing that, they can't take horses with them. Even when they went there on foot, they had to take a sledge of cargo with them - food, dry firewood, and other supplies. With all of them horseriding they would need to take at least three more sledges like that filled with feed. Also lands beyond The Wall are uneven, if they will have to hike/mountain climb, they will have to leave horses behind. So there's no point in taking them at all.

No offense, but I believe what you are saying is radically inconsistent with human experience, common sense, AND what we have been shown many other times in GoT itself.  Horses are capable of carrying FAR more than humans. Have you heard of packhorses?  Let's say there are 10 humans.  Okay, fine, they take FIFTEEN horses, and the extra horses carry supplies for ALL the humans and ALL the horses.

My goodness, I cannot imagine a human being rationally leaving horses behind on a trip of 150 to 300 miles because MAYBE in the future there might be some mountain pass that humans can traverse but MAYBE horses can't, but even if that eventuality DID arise, then fine, leave one of the redshirts behind to watch the horses while the rest of the humans proceed on foot.

My friend, it is INCONCEIVABLE to me that if you were setting out on a trip in Westeros of 150 to 300 miles that you would elect to leave horses behind just b/c MAYBE you might have to go somewhere the horses cant'.  Think about that.  Who in their right mind would say "Naw, I'll just walk it all, who knows, maybe 275 miles from here I'll reach a point that the horse can't go.  Maybe, maybe not. Who knows, but I'll leave all these horses behind based on that speculation."

Quote

But the most obvious reason is this: imagine that they are stealthily approaching group of wights, and suddenly one of the horses is starting to neigh. And if one horse is neighing, then others will also neigh in reply. On their gravestones would be writen - Betrayed by their horses.

There are numerous ways that problem could be avoided WITHOUT requiring the Wight Hungers to walk somewhere between 150 and 300 miles on foot.  Uh, if they are sneaking up on wights, then fine, leave the horses with a redshirt a mile or two behind.  It is inconceivable to me that any rational person would elect to walk 150 to 300 miles on foot (actually, double that, round trip) JUST IN CASE of circumstances you describe.

Bottom line: The failure of the Wight Hunters to take horses with them is baffling, bizarre, and rationally indefensible.

Edited by Cron

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

 

From wikia: TCOTF taught the First Men to use ravens to communicate over long distances. The greenseers of the children could change their skins and speak through the birds. Unlike humans, ravens can speak the True Tongue, the language of the children.Some drowned men of the Iron Islands believe that ravens are servants of the Storm God.

Also 3ER is mostly using them, and not some other birds or creatures.

Ravens are not average birds, the same as direwolves are not average wolves.

Fascinating.

What does any of that have to do with a claim that ravens in Westeros can fly at speeds between 100 and 200 miles per hour for 12 straight hours?

Nothing.

At best, the issues you are raising are raw speculation, with NO evidentiary support, in my very strong opinion.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also they are warm, so at least Dany is protected from freezing while she's riding them. They're like a giant furnace, full of warm and power

Do you know what windchill is?

You'll probably say that Dany can withstand extreme cold because she can withstand extreme heat. They must go together. Also, she has incredible gripping strength, otherwise how could she hold on? She has to be able to hold on, because Targaryens have Dragon blood and are born riders. Therefore, she can physically hold on. QED. 

Basically, if the rescue mission was plausible because ravens and dragons are magical (and magic doesn't need to be explained in detail),/why not throw in Dany, too? And Gendry, while we're at it.  

Better yet , say "a wizard did it" and wash your hands of the whole thing. 

Edited by darmody

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15 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I think we mostly agree on what Jon and Dany's realationship *should* be like and why. I think when it comes to the portrayal of their romance it might be the case of YMMV. It appears to have (mostly) worked for you but for me it wasn't too convincing. I understand of what they were trying to do but I just don't think it quite came together on screen.

What is YMMV?  (Oops, accidentally posted before I was ready.  Gotta edit, now)

Quote

Now you could say it's the actors or the direction, but I feel even more talented actors would have been hard press to convey a budding romance based on sultry looks alone and unfortunately the script gave them nothing else to dig their teeth into. Im not sure it can be explained as a time constraint either - we have several scenes of *other* characters discussing their mutual attraction. This screen time should have IMHO been given to the characters themselves. Instant attraction? Sure why not. But for me to buy it Is would expect to see characters who are inexplicably at ease around each other and quick to share intimacy. If they both just opened up to each other it would have been a very powerful scene and I think thllit would have sold their relationship much better. Instead the actors seem a bit distant - do they even touch each other before that boat scene?

Hey, I'm gonna be blunt, and cut to the chase.  Most guys would jump all over Dany within 5 seconds of seeing her.  This doesn't have to be "true love" to be plausible to me.  And frankly, I think Dany is a super sexually charged character who would jump all over Jon immediately, too.  Dany loves sex.  She's very interested in sex, and having sex, that is very clear to me, books and show (although, granted, ESPECIALLY in the show)

She hones her craft.  She strives to learn how to please her partner.  It's not hard for me to imagine her and Jon hitting it off really well really soon .

Quote

Oh, good old Jorah. I'm not sure whether the book or the show version is worse, but he needs to die (this was my one big hope for the wight hunt). Show Jorah gets brownie points for being played by Iain Glenn but then he's also completely blase about bringing greyscale close to Dany. Book Jorah is more predatory. Both versions are slavers who spied on Dany and didn't respect her boundaries.

 

YIKES!! Joran needs to die??  HARR!!!  

I dunno if he needs to die, but I do agree about the slaving and not respecting Dany's boundaries.

As a guy, I'd have no problem hanging out with him, and having him on an expedition like the Wight Hunt, but I think a lot of girls would not be as friendly about his behavior towards Dany as Dany is (especially given the fact that he's about 3 times her age), but hey, I've never been a girl, so maybe I'm wrong.

Edited by Cron

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Guest

Oh, wait until tonight. They will write something even stupider and then spend 10 million of HBos money filming it.

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21 minutes ago, darmody said:

No. There's the way you sell the product, then there's the actual product. With marketing, you're getting people to think it's what they want,whether or not it actually ends up being what they want. (Or what they think they want.) If it ends up being what they want, but that's beyond marketing. 

Ok, fair enough. I guess you're right.

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15 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Oh, apologies. Your mileage may vary. Something that's  individual and subjective.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/your_mileage_may_vary

Ah, thanks.

By the way, I replied in more extensive detail after that.

As I noted, after I asked that question, I accidentally posted prematurely.

Not normally a problem I have, but it happened there, so if you want the rest please look above.

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9 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Oh, wait until tonight. They will write something even stupider and then spend 10 million of HBos money filming it.

I am really looking forward to it. Wanna bet the rant thread will beat records?

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40 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What does he know? He knows nothing. Actual job is done by other people, and he himself does nearly nothing.

Wow: directors know nothing and don't do anything? :blink:

Directors have the script and have a back and forth with the writers over several production weeks about the filming of the script, weeks ahead of the actual filming.

He said more than "Ok". He said himself that they tried to "fudge" with the timeline because it was implausible, and he also admitted it was not realistic by saying that "people should let it go for a show that has dragons in it."

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

 

From wikia: TCOTF taught the First Men to use ravens to communicate over long distances. The greenseers of the children could change their skins and speak through the birds. Unlike humans, ravens can speak the True Tongue, the language of the children.Some drowned men of the Iron Islands believe that ravens are servants of the Storm God.

Also 3ER is mostly using them, and not some other birds or creatures.

Ravens are not average birds, the same as direwolves are not average wolves.

Speaking has nothing to do with the speed one flies. And in the show's case we have yet to hear ANY raven speak.

There is no such thing as an "average bird", because there is no such thing as an "average species" or a "bird species". Every species is different from another species of an animal, may the be mammal or bird or reptile. Because that's the definition of "species". And there's no "average class". The whole word use of "average" the way you use it is biologically and statistically nonsensical, including the direwolf example you use.

Direwolves are a different species from their smaller cousin species. The latter is comparable to the grey wolf of our world. Direwolves are a bigger species, but not more magical.

You confuse the ability of humans to skinchange animals as some type of definition that these animals are now magical. They're not. Boars, bears, dogs, common wolves, direwolves, big cats, housecats, eagles, ravens can all be skinchanged. The magic is the skinchanging ability of that human, not the animal. Speaking is not magical, as that depends on the intelligence of a bird species, and ravens and quite a few other bird species are very intelligent. It won't make them fly faster.

Edited by sweetsunray

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