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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???


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Just now, sweetsunray said:

He needed the hoodie more with his buzzcut and no beard. Thoros had his topknot. Sole men without a beard like Jorah and the Hound would really be cold. We lose the majority of our body through our scalp, because that's where the heart pumps the most blood too. Maybe they all acted so stupid, because of brain freeze :dunno:

brain freeze would explain many things lol!

Just now, sweetsunray said:

But agree: Gendry looked at Tormund clearly thinking - weirdo :lmao:

 

haha yes....Tormund is a weirdo indeed! (he thinks Brienne likes him...lol)

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23 minutes ago, lancerman said:

No it's not. Just like in the other person the definition you provided literally undermines your claims of the trope. 

 

 

No it doesn't.

It is a new revelation that ice does not freeze solid in sub arctic temperatures. It is also an object that was introduced just in the nick of time to save Jon and company. If in a prior episode or scene, they had shown the group traversing an area with lakes all around, covered with thin ice, you would have a case.

Same with benjin, he was newly introduced to the scene, episode, and even season, just for the purpose of unexpectedly and implausibly showing up to save Jon from an unresolvable situation. Now if they had shown Benjin in a previous scene or episode in the same vicinity, or perhaps having a vision of Jon and company on their quest, then again, you might have a case.

You are ignoring the entire definition, and focusing on, and blowing way out of proportion and context, one single word of the definition.

 

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Do any of you understand that they don't use hoods or cold weather face masks because you don't do that usually on tv.

It'd be like arguing that nascar racing movies aren't realistic because they use those helmets where you can see a person's face.  Well, of course they do.....it is because it is tv and they need to show the character's face.

It is a tv show.

Are all the really petty complaints necessary.

These kinds of complaints are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

In movies and tv they try to show the character's faces.  They reuse shots or slightly alter them because that leaves money for other stuff if they can.  They do flash forwards so they can keep the events going.

It just feels like I'm on a forum with people who know very little about why tv/movie producers do things a certain way.

I just will never get it I guess.  I suppose it is because watch tv/movies for entertainment.  I won't play a game that I think sucks.  I won't watch a tv show I think sucks.  There's so much more out there I could be enjoying.  Nobody is forced to watch a movie they don't like or read a book they don't like or watch a tv program they think is terrible or play a game they don't like.

I've mentioned before that I once was a fan of TWD but it started going downhill imo.  I still liked it for a while though.  I was posting with some fellow casual watchers in an ongoing thread on a forum and I started just being "that guy."  The guy who just came in and bashed on the most recent episode.  It is true.  This went on for a half a season and then started at the next season but I eventually recognized that the problem isn't the show.....the problem is me......the show has millions of fans so it doesn't suck......I just don't like it.  So why was I in a thread about it?  Why am I still watching it?  It was like a light bulb went off.  I haven't watched any since and I'm not in the fan's topic bashing on the show they are trying to enjoy.

I didn't like being "that guy."  I was worse than the show...which wasn't terrible or it wouldn't have such a huge following.

Years before that I was a gamer who'd played a lot of Call of Duty.  COD4-6 mostly.  I was in a clan and we'd have so much fun....until it just started being crap imo.  But it wasn't just me who was fussing about the lag and overpowered this or that all the time.  It was like it was most of the crew.  It sucked the fun right out of it.  One day, I just said.....forget it.....me and 4 others.  We stayed in the clan but we decided we were done with CoD.  We didn't complain endlessly on the clan forums about CoD anymore.

Nope, we found a game we enjoyed and started having fun each night again.

I hope some of you find your way away from this show since it just has a negative effect on you at this point.  Seriously.  I'm not even trying to be ugly.  I've been there, myself.  Sometimes it is best to just let it all go and if you can't......time to move on to greener pastures.  I hope you find a show that you truly enjoy where you can go to a forum and be all happy and excited about the previous episode.

This stuff is supposed to be a good time.  Enjoyable.  If it isn't for you then why bother, truly?  Others want to enjoy the show and discuss the show without an overbearing theme of negativity.  Don't be "that guy."

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11 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Do any of you understand that they don't use hoods or cold weather face masks because you don't do that usually on tv.

Yes, we do. It was already mentioned, and we're joking around about it.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

 

This stuff is supposed to be a good time.  Enjoyable.  If it isn't for you then why bother, truly?  Others want to enjoy the show and discuss the show without an overbearing theme of negativity.  Don't be "that guy."

then why do you post in this thread? We have read your points. Did you read the title of it? It's about unrealistic things from this episode, so it's normal people debate about it, and I see, you think they aren't, but why keep posting about what people should do or should not do with their private lives? What does it have to do with this thread?

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, we do. It was already mentioned, and we're joking around about it.

I actually liked the detail of Gendry's hood. It showed he was more clever than the others, and I like it :)

 

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26 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No it doesn't.

It is a new revelation that ice does not freeze solid in sub arctic temperatures. It is also an object that was introduced just in the nick of time to save Jon and company. If in a prior episode or scene, they had shown the group traversing an area with lakes all around, covered with thin ice, you would have a case.

Same with benjin, he was newly introduced to the scene, episode, and even season, just for the purpose of unexpectedly and implausibly showing up to save Jon from an unresolvable situation. Now if they had shown Benjin in a previous scene or episode in the same vicinity, or perhaps having a vision of Jon and company on their quest, then again, you might have a case.

You are ignoring the entire definition, and focusing on, and blowing way out of proportion and context, one single word of the definition.

 

Ice and a lake are now new revelations that are incompatible with the world of Game of Thrones. Okay..... sure...

Benjen wasn't introduced a season earlier as a character who lived beyond the wall... sure.

Those are convenient things. They aren't deus ex machina. 

The only person ignoring  a definition is you who decided to ignore the key qualifier in the whole freakin definition that describes precisely what a deus ex machina is. It doesn't say a event/character/object/ability. It doesn't say a improbable event/character/object/ability. It says a NEW event/character/object/ability. The whole entire point behind the trope is that the device used to resolve the conflict simply never existed within that world before and it was something that until that reveal occurs. It's literally a completely new insertion into the story.

Here's some advice, you would have been completely fine if you just said "a lot of improbable convenient events took place to get the characters safety out of the situation and it took autonomy away from the characters to feign danger without a more probable and less convenient way for them to resolve the conflict". Instead you are losing credibility trying to rework the definition of a common trope so you can have a new way to criticize the show. 

 

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30 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Read the article you linked. It specifically says that the "sudden and unexpected" occurrence is coming from a NEW event, character, ability, or object. You skipped the qualifier and used further adjectives describing the actual trope to define the trope. By that logic the resolution to Black Water is a deus ex machina. 

A resolution being sudden and unexpected is not a deus ex machina. The whole point of it is that it is new and was not alluded to previously. 

You ignored the actual definition and replaced it with adjectives added on to the definition. 

I read it, thanks. I added nothing to it and replaced nothing. I copied and pasted the quote as it is written on the website.

I would challenge your interpretation of the word "new" in the context the TV Tropes website is using it. My understanding is that this refers to a new element that hasn't been involved in the plotline it is resolving. Benjen hasn't been involved in the wight hunt story yet he appears at the end suddenly and unexpectedly to resolve this hopeless situation. Benjen fits the criteria.

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1 minute ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

I read it, thanks. I added nothing to it and replaced nothing. I copied and pasted the quote as it is written on the website.

I would challenge your interpretation of the word "new" in the context the TV Tropes website is using it. My understanding is that this refers to a new element that hasn't been involved in the plotline it is resolving. Benjen hasn't been involved in the wight hunt story yet he appears at the end suddenly and unexpectedly to resolve this hopeless situation. Benjen fits the criteria.

No it's a completely new element to the story. By your definition any sudden save that was unexpected is a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is literally meant to invoke a god mechanism that is completely inserted into the story without any way to know it exists.

Benjen does not fit the criteria whatsoever. We knew Benjen existed. We knew he lived beyond the wall in the exact same region that they were traveling in. We know he was working to combat the threat of the army of the dead. Jon was in the path of the army of the dead. It's completely plausible that he would be in the vicinity. 

At best, I can grant you that it was an quite a coincidence that Benjen showed up right at the time Jon needed him most. But that's not a deus ex machina. It's coincidence. 

For it to be deus ex machina one of these two would have to be true. 

1. Benjen did not exist in the show (let alone existing in the same region and combating the same threat Jon was facing, we can just ignore that right now). 

2. Happenstance and coincidences don't exist. 

Well we know Benjen was a character and coincidences happen all the time in the story. Therefore it's not a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina would be something like Ned's ghost saves Jon and we find out that all the Warden's of the North become powerful ghosts who try to keep peace beyond the wall. Something like that. 

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19 minutes ago, lancerman said:

No it's a completely new element to the story. By your definition any sudden save that was unexpected is a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is literally meant to invoke a god mechanism that is completely inserted into the story without any way to know it exists.

*snip*

Why then is the T-Rex at the end of Jurassic Park often listed as a classic example of deus ex machina?

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16 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Why then is the T-Rex at the end of Jurassic Park often listed as a classic example of deus ex machina?

Because until that very moment the T-Rex showed no reason or ability to sympathize with the plight of humans and save them and that entire capability came at the very time it was needed most with no reason to believe it was even a fraction of a possibility. 

Benjen lives North of the Wall and fights WW's and helped a relative who was North of the Wall and fighting WW's. 

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8 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

Correct. But in this way Dany would have implicitly acknowledged that the mission was dumb from the beginning. 

They actually had Dany implicitly acknowledge the mission is dumb. Remember her scene with Tyrion, talking about how she doesn't like heroes because heroes are stupid and get themselves killed? Granted, she's thinking about Jon specifically, and there's no reason why Jon had to go beyond the Wall himself. But I got the strong sense she thought the whole mission was dumb. 

The obvious answer, in light of that scene, is to make it all about Jon. Have Dany fly up to Eastwatch because she's worried about him. That's cheesy, but the season is already pretty much all about their romance. Cheesiness is a small sacrifice in the face of the plot being totally unbelievable. 

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12 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Because until that very moment the T-Rex showed no reason or ability to sympathize with the plight of humans and save them and that entire capability came at the very time it was needed most with no reason to believe it was even a fraction of a possibility. 

Benjen lives North of the Wall and fights WW's and helped a relative who was North of the Wall and fighting WW's. 

One could argue effectively that Bran being saved by Benjen would qualify as deus ex machina.

However it can't be a repeat deus ex machina with the same exact basic thing happening again because the story has already established undead Benjen being a wight hunter basically.

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1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Ice and a lake are now new revelations that are incompatible with the world of Game of Thrones. Okay..... sure...

Benjen wasn't introduced a season earlier as a character who lived beyond the wall... sure.

Try reading my post again. That's not what I said. You conveniently left out the relevant portion of my comment.

Lakes that do not freeze solid in a region of year round subarctic temperatures did not exist in the world of GoT until they were needed to save the protagonist from an unresolvable situation.

As for Benjin, I agree with @Dolorous Gabe's interpretation. The definition does not indicate what you claim to be the meaning of new. Please point to where it says, "Deus ex machina is literally meant to invoke a god mechanism that is completely inserted into the story without any way to know it exists." All it say is "some new event, character, ability or object."

As I said, he was newly introduced into the scene/ episode/season unexpectedly, and from out of nowhere. 

And you'll notice that it says "The term has evolved to mean..." Your literal translation and interpretation is not valid when discussing a deus ex machina as it is used in modern times.

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9 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

How does it not make sense.  This is laid out in the show pretty clearly.

LF gives Sansa to the Bolton's so he can.....

Then go get the Vale to and gather the army to "rescue" her.  So that he can have the North and the Vale under his thumb via controlling/manipulating SweetRobin and Sansa.

It was a power grab plot by LF.

Only he didn't know that Ramsey was a psycho to the point that giving Sansa to him would cost him Sansa's trust.

Still, it made perfect sense for LF to do it given his goals.

I'm sorry, why on earth (or planetos) does Littlefinger need Sansa married to Ramsey in order to invade the North? What do those two things have to do with eachother? Sansa marrying Ramsey split the Boltons off from the Lannisters. That's it. That's helpful to Littlefinger, because it temporarily gives him Lannister cover for taking over the North. But at the same time, he only strengthens the Boltons' claim by giving them the trueborn daughter of Ned Stark. 

As another poster said, at the same time this is happening, there's another army in the North. How was Littlefinger to know Stannis' forces were going to fall apart? Wouldn't the smart thing be to wait and see who wins, Bolton or Baratheon?

What did he gain by the arrangement, really? The Boltons lost Lannister protection. That's it. I could see if giving up Sansa allowed him to sneak his army to within striking distance. "Hey, Roose, I'll give you the Stark brat if you let the Vale into your territory. You know, for mutual defense against Cersei and Stannis." Or if he teamed up with the Boltons to fight the Lannisters on the basis of it. None of that happened.

What did he give up? His alliance with the Lannisters and as far as everyone knew the rightful Lady of Winterfell. Not only did he lose her, he handed over her advantage to his enemies. 

How much smarter would it have been to form alliances up North with Sansa by your side, then march your army in and fight the Boltons. Instead, after dithering while House Lannister withered of its own accord down South, Littlefinger waited while Sansa escaped, proceeded to mostly ignore him, and built an army with her half-brother/cousin Jon Snow. An eventuality Littlefinger could not reasonably have foreseen, but which right now is ruining his plans. 

Actually, his plans were pretty much ruined by handing over his virgin charge, and the girl he expected to rely upon for future favor, to a sexual sadist. 

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9 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Try reading my post again. That's not what I said. You conveniently left out the relevant portion of my comment.

Lakes that do not freeze solid in a region of year round subarctic temperatures did not exist in the world of GoT until they were needed to save the protagonist from an unresolvable situation.

As for Benjin, I agree with @Dolorous Gabe's interpretation. The definition does not indicate what you claim to be the meaning of new. Please point to where it says, "Deus ex machina is literally meant to invoke a god mechanism that is completely inserted into the story without any way to know it exists." All it say is "some new event, character, ability or object."

As I said, he was newly introduced into the scene/ episode/season unexpectedly, and from out of nowhere. 

And you'll notice that it says "The term has evolved to mean..." Your literal translation and interpretation is not valid when discussing a deus ex machina as it is used in modern times.

I didn't read your post.  I didn't respond to you at all.  What makes you think I conveniently left out anything?

I was responding to the other poster's comment.

I didn't even know you were complaining that they didn't establish frozen lakes in the past.  Now I'm just laughing at that.  That is funny.

Frozen lakes aren't established beforehand?  Strong, strong stuff there.  I'm outraged I tell ya!!!!!

lmao

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13 minutes ago, darmody said:

I'm sorry, why on earth (or planetos) does Littlefinger need Sansa married to Ramsey in order to invade the North? What do those two things have to do with eachother? Sansa marrying Ramsey split the Boltons off from the Lannisters. That's it. That's helpful to Littlefinger, because it temporarily gives him Lannister cover for taking over the North. But at the same time, he only strengthens the Boltons' claim by giving them the trueborn daughter of Ned Stark. 

As another poster said, at the same time this is happening, there's another army in the North. How was Littlefinger to know Stannis' forces were going to fall apart? Wouldn't the smart thing be to wait and see who wins, Bolton or Baratheon?

What did he gain by the arrangement, really? The Boltons lost Lannister protection. That's it. I could see if giving up Sansa allowed him to sneak his army to within striking distance. "Hey, Roose, I'll give you the Stark brat if you let the Vale into your territory. You know, for mutual defense against Cersei and Stannis." Or if he teamed up with the Boltons to fight the Lannisters on the basis of it. None of that happened.

What did he give up? His alliance with the Lannisters and as far as everyone knew the rightful Lady of Winterfell. Not only did he lose her, he handed over her advantage to his enemies. 

How much smarter would it have been to form alliances up North with Sansa by your side, then march your army in and fight the Boltons. Instead, after dithering while House Lannister withered of its own accord down South, Littlefinger waited while Sansa escaped, proceeded to mostly ignore him, and built an army with her half-brother/cousin Jon Snow. An eventuality Littlefinger could not reasonably have foreseen, but which right now is ruining his plans. 

Actually, his plans were pretty much ruined by handing over his virgin charge, and the girl he expected to rely upon for future favor, to a sexual sadist. 

Need Sansa?  He wants Sansa.

Are we watching the same show?

Littlefinger doesn't necessarily "need" Sansa.  He wants Sansa.  This is established on the show.  But more than Sansa, he wants to rule.  And selling Sansa gave him chaos.  He now is with the knights of the Vale.  He's got a massive army.  He wanted to control the north and the vale.

An alliance with the Bolton's isn't the same as controlling the Vale and the North via proxies.  The Bolton's were never going to be his.  He believed he could still manipulate Sansa (he'd gained her trust) and SweetRobin is basically just doing what he's told so far....via some simple manipulation.

Yes, his plan backfired in his face but mostly because he didn't know what Ramsey was.....he really thought Sansa was ready to manipulate like Margery does......only Ramsey was psychotic.  This was a big problem he didn't foresee.  But his plan was pretty well established and he's still trying to salvage it.

We can all say this would have been smarter or that would have been smarter but the show Littlefinger creates chaos so he can gain more control and manipulates the situation (whatever it is) to his advantage as best he can.  He messed up with Sansa but people mess up and it costs them.

And you are right too, at least I think it was you, when you said something about it all being added to give Sansa a rape thing.  I believe Sansa has just replaced in a round about way some other characters stories (I didn't read all the books) so this was a way to get Sansa doing something in the show the last few seasons when apparently she had basically no story in the last two books.

They were consolidating some stuff for tv reasons.   Sansa is a main character and she needed some stuff to do so they gave her the Ramsey marriage part and switched some stuff up to make that work.  It works too.  LF shouldn't have sent her but he did....and now she treats him like crap for it.

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52 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

One could argue effectively that Bran being saved by Benjen would qualify as deus ex machina.

However it can't be a repeat deus ex machina with the same exact basic thing happening again because the story has already established undead Benjen being a wight hunter basically.

And I was going to say 100% agree with that. The first time was deus ex. Even though you could argue it served as more of a reveal, it was far closer than this second time.

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44 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Try reading my post again. That's not what I said. You conveniently left out the relevant portion of my comment.

Lakes that do not freeze solid in a region of year round subarctic temperatures did not exist in the world of GoT until they were needed to save the protagonist from an unresolvable situation.

As for Benjin, I agree with @Dolorous Gabe's interpretation. The definition does not indicate what you claim to be the meaning of new. Please point to where it says, "Deus ex machina is literally meant to invoke a god mechanism that is completely inserted into the story without any way to know it exists." All it say is "some new event, character, ability or object."

As I said, he was newly introduced into the scene/ episode/season unexpectedly, and from out of nowhere. 

And you'll notice that it says "The term has evolved to mean..." Your literal translation and interpretation is not valid when discussing a deus ex machina as it is used in modern times.

It's not newly introduced into the season or episode. It's new addition to the story. You are changing the definition because to you deus ex machina is a buzz word you don't understand besides being a storytelling critique. 

 

By your logic, the Battle of Blackwater was resolved by a deus ex machina. 

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