snow is the man Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Tormound mentions mance rayder being a great man who would refuse to bend the knee and then says how many of us died for his pride. It kinda reminds me of when jon said almost the same thing to mance when he was trying to convince him to bend the knee to stannis. Mance said it wasn't his pride though and given how the free fold looked at him when he was being asked to bend the knee to stannis before he refused and was burned alive they wanted him to refuse. So what changed with tormound. And did that influence jons decision at the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Plot convenience. Jon needed a reason not to bend the knee. Now he needs a reason to change his mind. Also notice Dany spots Jons scar on his heart. It's all leading to them getting hitched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Yeeeeah of course it did. First the comparison had to be underlined because the audience has a pea sized brain and the internet wasn't full of pictures of the two scenes pasted next to each other. And after it was underlined, Tormund had to say what we and Jon and Tormund all know because again the audience has a pea sized brain and the writing of this bloody show has the subtlety of Gendry's goddamn hammer. And we needed all this to base Jon's (otherwise prefectly reasonable and sound) decision that he will bend the knee to someone he is expecting help from but has nothing or much less to offer to in return, even though the Northern lords whose allegiance changes with the moon may not like it. Goooooood this show... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It had an influence on Jon for sure. What Tormund said was just common sense. Jon was mule headed about it from the beginning when all he had to do was kneel to get the help that he needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Tormund has become a Westerosi citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan La Cabra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said: Tormund has become a Westerosi citizen. He has also become one of the best things about the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 That bugged me. Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee? only mance. Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Another vote for PLOTHOLE, heck I think bipolar storytelling. Even as the dialog was happening, I was like WHA? The show told us that Mance did not bend the knee to serve as an example and leader for the freefolk. Sure, Mance was stubborn but he held fast to his principles, to the death. Mance's death. Nobody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Not really, imo. Jon bend the knee because Daenerys was sad about the dragon and he wanted to cheer her up. 1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said: That bugged me. Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee? only mance. Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what? 1 hour ago, lakin1013 said: Another vote for PLOTHOLE, heck I think bipolar storytelling. Even as the dialog was happening, I was like WHA? The show told us that Mance did not bend the knee to serve as an example and leader for the freefolk. Sure, Mance was stubborn but he held fast to his principles, to the death. Mance's death. Nobody else. Yeah, I didn't get that line either. And I can't help, it seemed kind of out of character for Tormund to say this. He is a freefolk guy. They constantly talk about not bending the knee like southern lords. In the books (maybe even in the show) it is said that Mance managed to make the freefolk work together but none of the chieftains bend the knee to him. Tormund and the freefolk later help Jon but not because they bend the knee but because Jon let them throught the Wall. They are proud people. And now suddenly Tormund makes up a story about Mance's pride and talks about bending the knee? I know that Tormund's perspectives might have changed a bit but I still think that it is a bit wierd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deminelle Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said: Tormund has become a Westerosi citizen. 1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said: He has also become one of the best things about the show. I hope he gets his Brienne... and those kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzz Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Yes, because everything in the show is at best obvious and at worst contrived. Subtlety died in Season 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarres Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said: That bugged me. Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee? only mance. Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what? Had Mance subjected himself to Stannis, the two combined armies could have easily defeated the Twenty Men ... or something. Or... maybe Tormund is making a passive-aggressive reference to the fact that Jon's dumb strategy to attack Winterfell without the needed force got far more Free Folk killed than Mance did when he attacked the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Anarres said: Had Mance subjected himself to Stannis, the two combined armies could have easily defeated the Twenty Men ... or something. Or... maybe Tormund is making a passive-aggressive reference to the fact that Jon's dumb strategy to attack Winterfell without the needed force got far more Free Folk killed than Mance did when he attacked the Wall. Now this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It wasn't pride keeping Jon from bending the knee to Daenerys. It's the fact that he'd run the risk of loosing the loyalty of all of his vassals, at best, if not having them turn all the way against him, and even his own family would be tempted to assassinate him. Thus, logically, Tormund's line about pride shouldn't have had any value. Unfortunately, because the writing's crap ... it's probably going to be pointed to as a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Kytheros said: It wasn't pride keeping Jon from bending the knee to Daenerys. It's the fact that he'd run the risk of loosing the loyalty of all of his vassals, at best, if not having them turn all the way against him, and even his own family would be tempted to assassinate him. Thus, logically, Tormund's line about pride shouldn't have had any value. Unfortunately, because the writing's crap ... it's probably going to be pointed to as a reason. That's secondary to what Jon said himself in an earlier episode where he asks why should and that he doesn't know her. I think the scene clumsily tries to convey that Jon now knows her (she did just risk her life and lost a Dragon to save them) and therefore realises she's worth bending the knee too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said: That bugged me. Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee? only mance. Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what? Lmao this is exactly what I was thinking. Goodness gracious this was a truly awful episode with no coherence or consistency between characters (outside of Thoros being a drunk which they have to remind us of every time he is on screen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CE Kov Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 If Mance had bent the knee, Stannis would open the gates to the free folk (those willing to fight) All those at hard home, 90,000 of them, would not have died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 This really was the worst line of the entire season. It made zero sense - who died, Tormund?? WHO?? Are you saying Jon should bend the knee?? But...you told Jon he'll "never be a kneeler again"! I think they really wanted to make Mance a foil for Jon, which is fine and makes sense because it's also setting up Jon as a foil for Ned (bending the knee at the right time, instead of the wrong one), but since this was D&D invented, the execution failed miserably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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