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snow is the man

so tormounds line about mance rayder when talking to jon...did it influence him?

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Tormound mentions mance rayder being a great man who would refuse to bend the knee and then says how many of us died for his pride. It kinda reminds me of when jon said almost the same thing to mance when he was trying to convince him to bend the knee to stannis.  Mance said it wasn't his pride though and given how the free fold looked at him when he was being asked to bend the knee to stannis before he refused and was burned alive they wanted him to refuse. So what changed with tormound. And did that influence jons decision at the end

Edited by snow is the man

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Yeeeeah of course it did. 

First the comparison had to be underlined because the audience has a pea sized brain and the internet wasn't full of pictures of the two scenes pasted next to each other. 

And after it was underlined, Tormund had to say what we and Jon and Tormund all know because again the audience has a pea sized brain and the writing of this bloody show has the subtlety of Gendry's goddamn hammer. 

And we needed all this to base Jon's (otherwise prefectly reasonable and sound) decision that he will bend the knee to someone he is expecting help from but has nothing or much less to offer to in return, even though the Northern lords whose allegiance changes with the moon may not like it. 

Goooooood this show...

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It had an influence on Jon for sure.  What Tormund said was just common sense.  Jon was mule headed about it from the beginning when all he had to do was kneel to get the help that he needed. 

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2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tormund has become a Westerosi citizen.

He has also become one of the best things about the show.

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That bugged me.  Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee?

only mance. 

Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what?

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Another vote for PLOTHOLE, heck I think bipolar storytelling.   Even as the dialog was happening, I was like WHA?  The show told us that Mance did not bend the knee to serve as an example and leader for the freefolk.  Sure, Mance was stubborn but he held fast to his principles, to the death.  Mance's death.  Nobody else.

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Not really, imo. Jon bend the knee because Daenerys was sad about the dragon and he wanted to cheer her up.

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

That bugged me.  Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee?

only mance. 

Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what?

 

1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

Another vote for PLOTHOLE, heck I think bipolar storytelling.   Even as the dialog was happening, I was like WHA?  The show told us that Mance did not bend the knee to serve as an example and leader for the freefolk.  Sure, Mance was stubborn but he held fast to his principles, to the death.  Mance's death.  Nobody else.

Yeah, I didn't get that line either. And I can't help, it seemed kind of out of character for Tormund to say this. He is a freefolk guy. They constantly talk about not bending the knee like southern lords. In the books (maybe even in the show) it is said that Mance managed to make the freefolk work together but none of the chieftains bend the knee to him. Tormund and the freefolk later help Jon but not because they bend the knee but because Jon let them throught the Wall. They are proud people. And now suddenly Tormund makes up a story about Mance's pride and talks about bending the knee? I know that Tormund's perspectives might have changed a bit but I still think that it is a bit wierd.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tormund has become a Westerosi citizen.

 

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

He has also become one of the best things about the show.

I hope he gets his Brienne... and those kids.

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

That bugged me.  Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee?

only mance. 

Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what?

Had Mance subjected himself to Stannis, the two combined armies could have easily defeated the Twenty Men ... or something.

Or... maybe Tormund is making a passive-aggressive reference to the fact that Jon's dumb strategy to attack Winterfell without the needed force got far more Free Folk killed than Mance did when he attacked the Wall. :P

Edited by Anarres

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27 minutes ago, Anarres said:

Had Mance subjected himself to Stannis, the two combined armies could have easily defeated the Twenty Men ... or something.

Or... maybe Tormund is making a passive-aggressive reference to the fact that Jon's dumb strategy to attack Winterfell without the needed force got far more Free Folk killed than Mance did when he attacked the Wall. :P

Now this makes sense. 

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It wasn't pride keeping Jon from bending the knee to Daenerys. It's the fact that he'd run the risk of loosing the loyalty of all of his vassals, at best, if not having them turn all the way against him, and even his own family would be tempted to assassinate him.

Thus, logically, Tormund's line about pride shouldn't have had any value. Unfortunately, because the writing's crap ... it's probably going to be pointed to as a reason.

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3 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

It wasn't pride keeping Jon from bending the knee to Daenerys. It's the fact that he'd run the risk of loosing the loyalty of all of his vassals, at best, if not having them turn all the way against him, and even his own family would be tempted to assassinate him.

Thus, logically, Tormund's line about pride shouldn't have had any value. Unfortunately, because the writing's crap ... it's probably going to be pointed to as a reason.

That's secondary to what Jon said himself in an earlier episode where he asks why should and that he doesn't know her.  I think the scene clumsily tries to convey that Jon now knows her (she did just risk her life and lost a Dragon to save them) and therefore realises she's worth bending the knee too.

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3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

That bugged me.  Who died because Mance wouldn't bend knee?

only mance. 

Or am I forgetting the thousands who died doing... what?

Lmao this is exactly what I was thinking.  Goodness gracious this was a truly awful episode with no coherence or consistency between characters (outside of Thoros being a drunk which they have to remind us of every time he is on screen).

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If Mance had bent the knee, Stannis would open the gates to the free folk (those willing to fight) All those at hard home, 90,000 of them, would not have died.

Edited by CE Kov
misspelled Mance

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