Jump to content

Jon and Daeneris


Hoo

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Interesting. They definitely look like they are falling for each other on the show, but stay apart on account of being related.

I don't understand the squeamishness about Aunt/Nephew.... aside from it sounding as though it's some old woman with some kid - it's not.

Melanie and Ashley were married cousins in Gone With The Wind and no one whines about that. It's totally legal to marry as well.

They're didn't share a womb FFS.

Everything about the title of the episode screams of them finally having sex. When they find out - which will likely be next season at this rate, they're not going to care. They might feel even more like it's destiny since they're both Targs... and that's what Targs do.... except with far more immediate family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand it either, I think it's just a scapegoat for people who don't want Jon and Dany to end up together.
Gonna quote this post I wrote 5 minutes ago:
 

Quote

The whole "Incest, ewww"-argument is just a scapegoat for people who simply doesn't want Jon and Dany together. There are many reasons why it's actually OK for them to be together in the show, while the only real reason is that sexual relations between aunts and nephews *today* is somewhat looked down upon, but it's actually legal in many western countries.


Sexual relations between non-immediate family members in the setting of GoT (medieval) was actually nothing strange at all.
Sexual relations between immediate family members (siblings, parents, chilldren, grand children/parents) was frowned upon however, as it is today. Luckily for Jon and Dany, they are not immediate family members. Cersei and Jamie tried to keep their relationship a secret at first *because* they where immediate family members.

Another argument why it's OK for them to be together is because they quite simply don't know that they are related. For all Jon and Dany know, they are two monarchs of the same age, who are attracted to each other and who have a lot of things in common and a lot of qualities that they like and respect about the other person. From their perspective, it would be totally normal for them to have a romantic relationship.
Now, we don't really know how either of them would react if someone told them before they fell in love, but by this stage they are firmly in love with each other. My guess is that they would be slightly off-put by the fact (not to mention surprised) when they are told at first, but then will quickly come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, nor that they care, especially not if Daenerys is pregnant at that point.

A third argument is the whole "Targaryens have done it for centuries, it's normal for them". From a modern standpoint this doesn't make it OK, but this is fictional fantasy. Targaryens married siblings because they wanted to keep their bloodlines pure so they could continue to handle their dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I don't understand it either, I think it's just a scapegoat for people who don't want Jon and Dany to end up together.
Gonna quote this post I wrote 5 minutes ago:
 

Totally agree.

And as so many people have pointed out - in their world it's not weird. It's only weird in the 2017 Earth in certain circles, yet legal, and has been for centuries. 

I hope they ignore it. Being squeamish about it in their world seems hugely anachronistic to me, since no one would have batted an eye in 15th century England. 

I get why they needed the annulment bit for audience coddling purposes, since there were plenty of book readers who still don't see Kingsguard fighting to the death as proof enough of Jon's legitimacy, I just rather they hadn't, as it seems a bit anachronistic as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I get why they needed the annulment bit for audience coddling purposes, since there were plenty of book readers who still don't see Kingsguard fighting to the death as proof enough of Jon's legitimacy, I just rather they hadn't, as it seems a bit anachronistic as well. 

How is annulment at all anachronistic? Annulments happened quite a bit in the middle ages. In fact, when most people think of annulment, Henry VIII is probably one of the first things they think of (or, at least, they think of that other medieval show Queen Margy was in before this one).

ETA: I agree completely about your main point, though. A Westerosi noble being remotely squeamish about non-immediate-family incest, or a European one before the last couple generations, would be ridiculously anachronistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

Some of it were just people who loved Jon and hated Dany and projected their hatred of her into Jon. I mean Clash very directly foreshadows Jon being Dany's final husband. People shouldn't be surprised this is happening

After looking at some of the old threads in this forum, this very much seems to be the case.

Admittedly it is a difficult challenge to make internet nerds root for a powerful female character who goes around conquering cities, punishing slavers, burning rapist warlords et al. But its still a great failure of GRRM and the show-runners that they have failed to make one of the main protagonists likable to a large subgroup of the fanbase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most importantly..... if they have a baby, what are they gonna call it. 

I'm thinking girl, and Daenerys will pick something like "Rhaennys". It's a nice mix of her mum, Jon's mum and herself. 

Jon would probably pick Kate or Jill or something. Jon's not allowed to choose :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/21/2017 at 11:13 AM, WeaselPie said:

We still don't know Dany's real story, either on the show or in the books.  But on the show, it appears TO ME that a Luke-Leia deal is in the cards, and they're siblings, not aunt and nephew.  Twins in fact.  Just my take on it.

Twins?

what?

what evidence do you have that suggests they're twins?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Twins?

what?

what evidence do you have that suggests they're twins?

Actually, I always wondered if it were twins, as that makes Lyanna's death far less coincidental for the sake of the storyline, and far more likely realistically. Ned took one and Howland took one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, NexivRed said:

Most importantly..... if they have a baby, what are they gonna call it. 

I'm thinking girl, and Daenerys will pick something like "Rhaennys". It's a nice mix of her mum, Jon's mum and herself. 

Jon would probably pick Kate or Jill or something. Jon's not allowed to choose :D

Jon wants to call baby girl Ygrette. Reminiscing an old girl friend will cause their first marital fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I don't understand the squeamishness about Aunt/Nephew.... aside from it sounding as though it's some old woman with some kid - it's not.

Melanie and Ashley were married cousins in Gone With The Wind and no one whines about that. It's totally legal to marry as well.

They're didn't share a womb FFS.

Everything about the title of the episode screams of them finally having sex. When they find out - which will likely be next season at this rate, they're not going to care. They might feel even more like it's destiny since they're both Targs... and that's what Targs do.... except with far more immediate family.

Two cousins is considerably further genetically than a cousin and an aunt...

 

Take two siblings, 100% Jones. If they marry out of family (Smith, and Black) their children are each 50% Jones. If the children marry out of family, the grand children are 25% Jones.

However, if the children marry cousins, the grandchildren are 50% Jones, 25% Smith and 25% Black.

However if the child marries an aunt, the grandchildren are 75% Jones and 25% Smith.

That is a very big difference.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, NexivRed said:

Actually, I always wondered if it were twins, as that makes Lyanna's death far less coincidental for the sake of the storyline, and far more likely realistically. Ned took one and Howland took one.

Far more likely?  Death in childbirth isn't at all uncommon, especially in middle age society. 

It was basically a game of Russian roulette whether the baby's head would fit through the birth canal, or any number of other complications that could be fatal.  

And now Howland has one?  I thought it was Jon and Dany that were twins?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, NexivRed said:

Most importantly..... if they have a baby, what are they gonna call it. 

I'm thinking girl, and Daenerys will pick something like "Rhaennys". It's a nice mix of her mum, Jon's mum and herself. 

Jon would probably pick Kate or Jill or something. Jon's not allowed to choose :D

hahahahaha :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

While I find it easier to point out and explain why Daenerys develops romantic feelings for Jon, I can think of quite a few reasons why Jon would end up falling for Dany as well:

- First and foremost, he finds her beautiful. The physical attraction is there. Jon hasn't exactly been around that many women, and no other woman like Daenerys. She's clean, well dressed, does her hair and looks amazing in general. We know from Davos that Jon had started eying Dany out already by episode 4. Who can blame him?

- She's a strong woman, and we know that Jon likes strong women. Dany is the strongest woman Jon has ever met, both in terms of willpower, determination and actual power. Despite this, she humbles herself early on by asking for Jon's advice on how she should proceed in her war against Cersei, and she listens to him. She also gave him something he wanted (Dragonglass) without asking for anything in return.

- He notices quickly, that Danys followers follow her out of respect and love, and not just because of a title. Just like Jon, she has earned her followers loyalty. They came to her, believing in her, etc.

- He also quickly take notice that Dany, like him, is willing to do things the hard way, if it's the right way. He mentions straight away that he's curious about why she hasn't stormed Kings Landing, and he concludes that she doesn't want innocent to die, just like him.

- They have very similar ideologies on how to rule (for the betterment of the people), and he knows that she, just like him, has had a long arduous journey before she got to Dragonstone. They've both suffered and fought their way to get where they currently are, but neither has given up.

- Lastly, and most importantly, since this is the thing that ultimately makes Jon bend the knee and more or less give in to his bottled romantic feelings: Jon is the kind of ruler who "leads from the front", and who thinks that other rulers likewise should do the same: fight for their people, and not just expect the people to fight for them. Already in episode 4 Dany asks (or rather yells at) Tyrion "What kind of queen am I if I'm not willing to risk my life to fight them?" (her enemies). Jon picks up on this, because he has the exact same mindset. This is a huge plus for Dany in Jon's book. This mentality is cemented in episode 6, where Dany puts herself and her most priced possessions in danger when she flies of to save Jon and his crew. She proved that she's not just a fancy title and all talk (as he suspected in their first meeting in episode 3), but that she will be a good ruler with a lot of integrity, and right after this Jon bent the knee (metaphorically).

I can probably think of more reasons why Jon has fallen for Dany by the end of episode 6, but this will have to do for now. :)

I think this sums it up pretty well. Great post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Far more likely?  Death in childbirth isn't at all uncommon, especially in middle age society. 

It was basically a game of Russian roulette whether the baby's head would fit through the birth canal, or any number of other complications that could be fatal.  

And now Howland has one?  I thought it was Jon and Dany that were twins?

I didn't say it was uncommon. I said with twins it's more likely. What's the problem with that. 

Ned and Howland were at the tower together. If it were twins, they each took one to better protect them.

The only reason why it popped into my head was because I wondered why, when we see nothing of Howland, suddenly his kids turn up to protect a Stark boy. Both Jojen and Meera seemed like there was a little more to them in the books to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, NexivRed said:

I didn't say it was uncommon. I said with twins it's more likely. What's the problem with that. 

Ned and Howland were at the tower together. If it were twins, they each took one to better protect them.

The only reason why it popped into my head was because I wondered why, when we see nothing of Howland, suddenly his kids turn up to protect a Stark boy. Both Jojen and Meera seemed like there was a little more to them in the books to me. 

They showed up in the books because Jojen Reed is a greendreamer - and his greendreams guided him to Bran and then beyond the Wall. Meera's there to look after her younger brother.

 

Nah, if there were twins, Ned would've taken in both the same way he took in Jon. There being a second child wouldn't have made a difference to Ned - they're both equally his family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Far more likely?  Death in childbirth isn't at all uncommon, especially in middle age society. 

I've actually wondered about whether it's as common in Westeros as in medieval Europe or not. In some areas, their health care seems to be a whole lot better (and especially in reproductive health—there certainly wasn't any 99%-effective and safe birth control or abortifacients in medieval Europe), there don't seem to be as many powerful men with serial marriages (a la Jon Arryn) as in the real world, we haven't seen any stories of reigning ladies making out their wills upon their first pregnancy, and nobody even seems to talk about the possibility unless the wife seems obviously frail or unhealthy.

Still, even if it's less common than in medieval Europe, it's certainly far more common than in the 21st century, and nobody in-universe seems to think it's baffling that it might happen even though there's a Maeste present and go looking for conspiracy theories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, NexivRed said:

The only reason why it popped into my head was because I wondered why, when we see nothing of Howland, suddenly his kids turn up to protect a Stark boy. Both Jojen and Meera seemed like there was a little more to them in the books to me. 

Meera is somewhere near the right age, but she doesn't seem a particularly likely R+L baby. The books make a big deal out of familial looks, and a girl described as being short and wiry with bright green eyes and reddish-brown hair isn't a good match for either supposed parent or for her supposed twin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Still, even if it's less common than in medieval Europe, it's certainly far more common than in the 21st century, and nobody in-universe seems to think it's baffling that it might happen even though there's a Maeste present and go looking for conspiracy theories.

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's as dangerous as it was in our ye olde timey times.  I don't think they ever mentioned in the books that women would fill out their wills after they found out they were pregnant.  

And as @Kytheros said, no way Ned Stark is going to give one of his sister's children to another family.  The father could have been Ramsey Bolton and Ned would still raise that kid as a Stark. 

I mean, you know... after killing Ramsey Bolton.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Meera is somewhere near the right age, but she doesn't seem a particularly likely R+L baby. The books make a big deal out of familial looks, and a girl described as being short and wiry with bright green eyes and reddish-brown hair isn't a good match for either supposed parent or for her supposed twin.

I think the only reason that theory exists is because the actress who plays Meera could pass as Kit Harrington's sister.  All that curly black hair. 

...

Don't be perverted.  You know what I mean. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/21/2017 at 1:13 AM, Ser Wun Wun said:

The director Alan Taylor even gave an interview tonight where he laid out where they are heading and said George told them Dany+Jon was 'the point' of this whole story way back in S1:  Link

 

I read the comments by Martin and will confess to disappointment.  Martin hides things in plain sight.  So we have 'prince that was promised' and dialogue like "Promise me, Ned" or Hodor and dialogue like 'Hold the door'.  When I read about Jon and Dany, it was so obvious that I thought it actually was something else.  It just seemed like he had used this hide in plain sight technique so often, that with Jon and Dany, he was subverting the obvious and planning something really surprising.  Such in not the case :-(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...