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Cat the Most selfish Women in all the seven Kingdoms


1northlad

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No, I do not think Cat is the most selfish or boring. 

Cat is a lot of things; shortsighted, mean, and naive, to name a few, but not selfish.  Think of how she threw herself at Bran's assassin, or volunteered to go to Kings Landing and then into the Twins.  And then when she grabs Jinglebells at the Red Wedding and pleads for Robb's life while offering up herself as a hostage.

And her chapters give us the only view of Robb and his portion of the war.  We see much of the story from her POV and we also learn about a lot of history from her internal monologue.

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47 minutes ago, Ran said:

@JordanJH1993


That's exactly what Mormont is implying regarding Ned's "shunning" remark is an excuse to cover his real reason why he doesn't want to risk having Jon in King's Landing.

I think, if Jon hadn't blabbed about the Watch, that the obvious solution would have been to make him squire for some lord like Galbart Glover or Wyman Manderly or even Medger Cerwyn (who has the advantage of being very near to Winterfell, so Jon would be able to visit without actually staying there extensively, thereby avoiding antagonizing Catelyn). There's really no reason why Ned didn't do this.

 

Re: Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow, there's no evidence any Stark bastards were ever raised in Winterfell before Jon Snow (unless we want to count the legendary offspring of Bael the Bard, if he ever really existed), including these. It's not at all weird that a bastard son, fostered out, might end up coming back into the household as a man-at-arms or adviser, of course.

And then, eventually, he could have been given a keep of his own and founded House Whitewolf or Krats. :) But then, that would be a different tale. Obviously, you and @mormont have the right of it--that the Ned did not want to hide Lyanna's son under Robert's Targaryen-sniffing nose, which is yet another hint that R+L=J. 

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2 hours ago, Moonmoon said:

My argument was that Cat was indifferent to jon. Other than that bran scene she never did or said anything mean to him. So, she was never cruel to him. She hates his existence but she never did anything to him. Even let him be close with her kids. What more do you expect from her? She has no obligation to love her husband's bastard. She isn't his stepmother as jon was born after the marriage.

:agree:

It seemed to me that Jon and Cat simply avoided each other, he didn't overstep his boundaries and in return she tolerated his presence not exactly the markings of child abuse now is it? A lot more characters have had it worse, whether they were illegitimate or true born. 

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14 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

:agree:

It seemed to me that Jon and Cat simply avoided each other, he didn't overstep his boundaries and in return she tolerated his presence not exactly the markings of child abuse now is it? A lot more characters have had it worse, whether they were illegitimate or true born. 

But but...catelyn and sansa were so mean to my poor snowflake! How dare catelyn never accepted a bastard who was a constant reminder of her husband's infidelity! How dare sansa call him half-brother when he is indeed her half-brother and gave him advice on how to talk to girls! :'( 

On serious note, yeah, like you said he had so much better life than every other bastard out there. How many bastards grew up with a loving father, siblings, education and training at arms? He only got to face real hardship when he went to the Wall. 

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Ned made a foolish (perhaps he was forced with few options) decision to  go south. Taking Sansa was sensible and she was keen to go.  Bran was also to go - he was keen like any small boy in love with knights etc.

Why he chose to take Arya is unclear but I suspect HE understood that leaving her behind with just Catelyn was not good for her and he perhaps grasped that hers was a personality that needed careful attention - the wolf blood and he needed to protect her as best he could. Cat could not do that, because while Ned saw that Arya was very much like Lyanna, for Cat Arya was a strange unruly girl.  Arya was however dragged unwillingly from Winterfell.

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It is always a good idea with GRRM to read the books and pick up all the clues,

Try these:

1. as noted above Ned called Cat cruel - He would not have done this if it were an unexpected or uncommon reaction. Her hatred clearly shone through.

2. Cat hardened against the very name of Jon and it was clear from Ned'd reaction that this was a long standing and expected reaction

3. Robb EXPECTED Cat to be cruel to Jon when he went to visit Bran, and was relieved when Jon lied and said cat was kind to him. Thus obviously Cat's unkindness was sufficiently commonplace for a 14 yer old boy to notice

4. We are told that Jon felt as if Cat begrudged him food 

5. We are told she was always unhappy (this is how Jon felt) when he bested Robb at anything. Actually this one I can forgive - pretty natural mother's reaction, although a well bred lady might try to hide it.

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27 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Ned made a foolish (perhaps he was forced with few options) decision to  go south. Taking Sansa was sensible and she was keen to go.  Bran was also to go - he was keen like any small boy in love with knights etc.

Why he chose to take Arya is unclear but I suspect HE understood that leaving her behind with just Catelyn was not good for her and he perhaps grasped that hers was a personality that needed careful attention - the wolf blood and he needed to protect her as best he could. Cat could not do that, because while Ned saw that Arya was very much like Lyanna, for Cat Arya was a strange unruly girl.  Arya was however dragged unwillingly from Winterfell.

Arya went by default, that was the standard option - the boys only did not because they had specific reasons not to, being too young and the designated Stark in Winterfell.

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Moon

Nearly ALL the noble bastards grew up with friends and family and were well educated. Sure they might be fostered out and in any case EVERY noble boy was usually fostered out at about age 7/8 as pages and then squires.  Generally while young they would stay with their mother's family perhaps but when older they would be sent out as pages or squires as the father sought fit. Of course there would be a difference - a legitimate boy would usually go to a great Lord etc while a bastard may need to serve a lesser knight or perhaps another bastard. However they would receive education and training as befitted the son of a noble. Exceptions are the disasters like Ramsay Snow. Recall the bastard son of the Bracken who seemed to be treated like a son and mourned etc.

What about the great bastards - Bloodraven and of course Daemon -hardly non educated.

GRRM based his novel very much on what WAS normal behaviour in royal and noble courts in medieval Europe. Bastard kids were kept amongst the royals and educated in the same way. Often other noble an semi noble kids would also be educated in this way - eg the sons of stewards or knights in court.  There are plenty of examples of bastards raised at court.

In Winterfell you see Jeyne Poole being educated alongside Sansa and Arya and this would be the expected course for most young bastards - male or female.

The difference between Jon and other bastards was that he seemed to have no mother's family, so essentially Ned had no choice BUT to bring him to Winterfell. Cat should have understood that. A-motherless child needs at least ONE parent. I can see NO excuse for her being unkind to Jon while a young child.

Perhaps when Jon was 7/8 or so, Ned should have fostered him out - perhaps with Jon Arryn but possibly as a bastard he could not have looked so high. The Cerwyns or Manderlys perhaps. However even by that time Cat should have realised than Jon and Robb were good friends and a good influence on each other. Only a fool of a mother would break up such a solid bond between boys, even if you hated the bastard. Look at the damage done to Robb by the other boy that Robb trusted - Theon.

Of course we can all guess that there was some secret about his parentage that meant that Ned had to keep Jon close by and probably not in the South. The real question is just why did Ned not trust Catelyn with that secret. Something in HER nature meant that Ned could not trust her.

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1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Ned made a foolish (perhaps he was forced with few options) decision to  go south. Taking Sansa was sensible and she was keen to go.  Bran was also to go - he was keen like any small boy in love with knights etc.

Why he chose to take Arya is unclear but I suspect HE understood that leaving her behind with just Catelyn was not good for her and he perhaps grasped that hers was a personality that needed careful attention - the wolf blood and he needed to protect her as best he could. Cat could not do that, because while Ned saw that Arya was very much like Lyanna, for Cat Arya was a strange unruly girl.  Arya was however dragged unwillingly from Winterfell.

Taking Arya South made sense for three reasons

a- Arya was the naughty one. With Bran dying it only made sense to let Cat grieving in peace without having to take care of that little rascal
b- Sansa is a Northern lady whose moving to a totally different culture and marrying the future most powerful man in the world. That attracts jealousy and is one hell of a shock for the girl. Having her sister around should help her adapt
c- Ned was hand + his daughters shared blood (or would be married to) to half of Westeros highest nobility (Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon and Lannister). That made Arya a prized asset. What better place to arrange a good wedding for her then in KL?

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8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And yet it's Jon's wish to join the NW, an idea that he comes up with all on his own.  Cat seizes on it as a way to get Ned to act on her desire to get Jon out of Winterfell but as with your insistence that Cat "forced" Ned to accept the position of Hand and go to KL you seem myopic in denying any other character agency or the ability to make their own choices.  A bit more balance would really help here.

Well he hardly had a choice. His father was moving South and he couldn't take him there. Cat wanted him out of Winterfell. The only decent proposal for him came from Uncle Benjen.

And lets be realistic. King Bob travelled all the way from KL to Winterfell. He took all his family with him as a sign of respect and he offered Ned the two biggest honours a Westerosi king can offer (hand + marrying his heir to his daughter). Ned simply couldn't send him home with a thanks but no thanks.

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7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is no hint in the books that Robb is a bastard or that Cat ever had any pre-marital relations.  She is a POV and we see her thoughts throughout three books but nowhere is there any vague hint or shadow of some secret regarding Robb or Brandon or regret that she had deceived Ned throughout their marriage. 

The only questions over Cat's virginity are started by Petyr Baelish who misremembers drunkenly sleeping with Lysa as sleeping with Cat and spreads those lies at Court.  When Tyrion throws that in her face on the road to the Eyrie (as Jaime does later at Riverrun) she indignantly denies it and says Ned knows the truth of her "maidenhood" on their wedding night [sic].  No doubt you'll claim she lied but we're in her head and there's no hint there or anywhere else that she isn't simply outraged by a scandalous lie and is herself being truthful.

As to the timeline: unless Cat had the longest pregnancy ever there is no way for Brandon to have fathered Robb

1. Cat is at Riverrun.

2. Rhaegar seizes Lyanna somewhere in the Riverlands.

3. Brandon, who is not at Riverrun, but somewhere in the Riverlands, rides to KL looking for Rhaegar.

4. Aerys arrests Brandon and summons Rickard to KL.  Rickard comes all the way from Winterfell.

5. Rickard is killed by Aerys who also orders Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert.  Ned is at The Eyrie.

6. Ned returns to the North, raises his banners and marches his forces south.

7. Ned and Jon travel to Riverrun for the double marriage and Ned leaves immediately to continue the war.

8. Cat remains at Riverrun and has an utterly normal and unremarkable pregnancy.  Nowhere is it ever stated that this was unusually long even by a week or two.

Unless you think the characters have teleportation skills there is no way for the months that elapse between Cat last seeing Brandon and her marrying Ned to allow Brandon to be Robb's father. 

Unless you think Cat was pregnant for over a year this pet theory is simply impossible.

There are the odd hints about Robb but I agree not strong. Bran's scene in the weirwood I think can be interpreted in a way that implicates Robb just as much as Jon and I think that the Lady Dustin exchange is also a broad hint (possibly too broad) in the direction of Brandon and Cat getting together early.

I do not necessarily think Cat lied except to herself. She may not actually have been fully aware she was indeed pregnant, and possibly not fully aware she had even lost her virginity - especially if she had been drinking a bit.

The timelines  are a total mess of confusion re all the various births and so we cannot really say anything about who was born when and where. What we are told and seems to be assured (there are plenty who argue otherwise) that Robb is say 2 months older than Jon (cannot be much more). If Jon is the child of Lyanna and Reaegar born at the end of the war, then yes you can say for sure that he was conceived say 2 moths after the war started and that Robb was conceived at the very beginning of the war and thus MUST be Ned's son.

However the moment you consider that Jon really is Ned's son then you have NO exact time about his conception. He could have been born any time from say 8-11 months into the way and thus conceived from 1 month before to two months into the war, meaning that Robb was conceived any time up to 3 months before the war.

Recall that the two babies/toddlers were relocated to Winterfell probably at about 1 year of age. No body would have been too precise about the exact location of all the parties 9 moths before conception. Had Catelyn travelled North with a tribe of Ladies in Waiting, nursemaids etc I could easily accept that you could not fudge the birth dates etc. but we have no evidence of any such retinue. We are looking at a time of 4-12 weeks between Brandon being last at Riverrun and Ned marrying Cat.

Now covering up a 4 week "premature" birth is easy and has been done a million times in our real world. 8 weeks is difficult but not impossible. 12 weeks i accept would be very difficult. Mind you we also have a conflict re lady Dustin's story and timelines, since she wanted to marry Brandon but would have made do with Ned. However she already had a husband who went South with Ned, although he was not yet married.

Either there is something fishy or GRRM made a glitch

 

 

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Develish

Fully agree

We must also recognise that Jon got the idea of joining the NW in the two weeks of the royal visit, when as still just a boy, he realised probably for the first time just how significant a disadvantage being a bastard really was. Sure he knew he was different but up until that time he was always part of the family - seated on the top table. Excluded for the very first time he gets drunk (also for the first time) and we see him crying and realising that he was really not part of the inner crowd. it was in that two weeks that Benjen's idea captures him - a way to make his mark in the world, to rise to a position of power and honour and to please his father.

The real issue I think is why Ned agreed. Sure we know that Jon could never go South and needed to be kept clear of Robert (or some other enemy unknown). We know Ned loved Jon form his POV in the dungeon. Ned clearly understood that Jon would not be happy with Cat at Winterfell. The Starks have long had a tradition of honouring and serving at the Wall so it was not the strange choice many in the South would find it.  However it does seem to me that Ned could have sent Jon for say four years to the Manderlys, Cerwyns, or Glovers allowing him time to consider his future when a little older.

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31 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Moon

Nearly ALL the noble bastards grew up with friends and family and were well educated. Sure they might be fostered out and in any case EVERY noble boy was usually fostered out at about age 7/8 as pages and then squires.  Generally while young they would stay with their mother's family perhaps but when older they would be sent out as pages or squires as the father sought fit. Of course there would be a difference - a legitimate boy would usually go to a great Lord etc while a bastard may need to serve a lesser knight or perhaps another bastard. However they would receive education and training as befitted the son of a noble. Exceptions are the disasters like Ramsay Snow. Recall the bastard son of the Bracken who seemed to be treated like a son and mourned etc.

What about the great bastards - Bloodraven and of course Daemon -hardly non educated.

GRRM based his novel very much on what WAS normal behaviour in royal and noble courts in medieval Europe. Bastard kids were kept amongst the royals and educated in the same way. Often other noble an semi noble kids would also be educated in this way - eg the sons of stewards or knights in court.  There are plenty of examples of bastards raised at court.

In Winterfell you see Jeyne Poole being educated alongside Sansa and Arya and this would be the expected course for most young bastards - male or female.

The difference between Jon and other bastards was that he seemed to have no mother's family, so essentially Ned had no choice BUT to bring him to Winterfell. Cat should have understood that. A-motherless child needs at least ONE parent. I can see NO excuse for her being unkind to Jon while a young child.

Perhaps when Jon was 7/8 or so, Ned should have fostered him out - perhaps with Jon Arryn but possibly as a bastard he could not have looked so high. The Cerwyns or Manderlys perhaps. However even by that time Cat should have realised than Jon and Robb were good friends and a good influence on each other. Only a fool of a mother would break up such a solid bond between boys, even if you hated the bastard. Look at the damage done to Robb by the other boy that Robb trusted - Theon.

Of course we can all guess that there was some secret about his parentage that meant that Ned had to keep Jon close by and probably not in the South. The real question is just why did Ned not trust Catelyn with that secret. Something in HER nature meant that Ned could not trust her.

I can't really argue about this because i don't have much knowledge on how bastards are generally treated in westeros. I know about the well-known bastards like daemon. Though I'll admit when said that jon was better off I was thinking of commoner bastards. I guess being a bastard from a noble family is a blessing. The examples you gave of bastards, were they legitimized? Can you also direct me where it was mentioned or implied that all bastards grow up in a happy family? I missed that part or forgot. I don't know but there is definitely a difference how jeyne/theon are treated compared to jon. Jeyne might be sansa's friend and learns sewing alongside her but she is still treated as steward's daughter. Theon is close to robb but he was never treated as family. Jon is definitely treated as part of the stark family except when guests come over. 

Catelyn was never unkind to jon except that one time he came to visit bran. Grrm confirmed it that catelyn was never mean to jon. She avoided him and that's it. Loving jon like her own child is not catelyn's good damn duty. You can't force yourself to love someone even if its a child, let alone a bastard child who constantly reminds you of your partner's infidelity. Catelyn did the best she could to tolerate him and she should be applauded for that because in some real life cases women can be quite cruel to their stepchildren. Jon is not even her stepson, he's a bastard. It's not catelyn's fault but ned's. He knew how cat felt but he still brought him up in the same house with his true born children. He won't even tell her the identity of the mother. Put yourself in catelyn's shoes. Imagine your husband not only cheats on you but also brings a child from another partner and despite your resistance he brings him into the house when he could easily have him grow up elsewhere. If ned told catelyn the truth, she would have no problem with jon. Ned is the one at fault. Catelyn acted like how a normal woman would react. Catelyn is not obliged to show motherly affection to jon. Her behavior is understandable and justified. 

 

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10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Why he chose to take Arya is unclear but I suspect HE understood that leaving her behind with just Catelyn was not good for her and he perhaps grasped that hers was a personality that needed careful attention

Because he did such a great job right? Men don't raise the daughters that's the mother's and Septa's job, Cat stayed behind to help Robb so Septa Mordane was Arya's main carer. As much as I love him Ned was a terrible parent to his daughters.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Nearly ALL the noble bastards grew up with friends and family and were well educated.

Do you have any example of this because from what I've read bastards (who weren't from Dorne) were either unacknowledged by their father, kept away from the trueborn family, killed, or simply treated like dirt; by keeping Jon in his household Ned was taking an unconventional approach to his bastard.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

What about the great bastards - Bloodraven and of course Daemon -hardly non educated.

Most of Aegon IV's bastards were sent away once their mother lost his favour e.g. Bittersteel, Bloodraven was also sent away when Melissa lost favour he only kept ties because of his mother's popularity with the queen and crown prince. Also Daemon was a Targaryen bastard so was given special treatment, but at the end of the day Targaryens were the exception, not the rule.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

There are plenty of examples of bastards raised at court.

Targaryen bastards of the king and as I said they were an exception not the rule, Ned literally tells Cat that Kingslanding is no place for a bastard.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

In Winterfell you see Jeyne Poole being educated alongside Sansa and Arya and this would be the expected course for most young bastards - male or female.

Jeyne Poole isn't a bastard, she's the daughter of a steward and so an acceptable playmate for the daughters of Winterfell. Where as it ever been expected for bastards to be raised with their trueborn siblings?

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The difference between Jon and other bastards was that he seemed to have no mother's family, so essentially Ned had no choice BUT to bring him to Winterfell.

He could have had him fostered by someone he trusts e.g. House Reed

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I can see NO excuse for her being unkind to Jon while a young child.

When was she ever cruel to Jon? From what I've seen they avoided each other to keep the peace, he doesn't overstep his boundaries and in return she turns a blind eye.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The real question is just why did Ned not trust Catelyn with that secret. Something in HER nature meant that Ned could not trust her.

What do you mean in her nature? That's the silliest thing I've ever seen 

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10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

It is always a good idea with GRRM to read the books and pick up all the clues,

Try these:

1. as noted above Ned called Cat cruel - He would not have done this if it were an unexpected or uncommon reaction. Her hatred clearly shone through.

Uh, no, he would only have done this if it were an unexpected or uncommon reaction. Otherwise, it would not have been worth remarking on.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

2. Cat hardened against the very name of Jon and it was clear from Ned'd reaction that this was a long standing and expected reaction

Again, the reverse is true. If Cat's reaction here were expected because of past behaviour towards Jon, Ned would never have bothered to propose this in the first place.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

3. Robb EXPECTED Cat to be cruel to Jon when he went to visit Bran, and was relieved when Jon lied and said cat was kind to him. Thus obviously Cat's unkindness was sufficiently commonplace for a 14 yer old boy to notice

And yet again, no. Robb fears that Cat would react badly, which is fair because she's acting very unusually. But the fact that he instantly believes Jon when he is told that she was 'kind', suggest that it's completely credible to Robb that Cat would treat Jon kindly in this situation. That can only be true if Cat is not usually unkind to Jon.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Moon

Nearly ALL the noble bastards grew up with friends and family and were well educated.

We're explicitly told on a number of occasions that this is not the case. Noble bastards are raised away from the family. Their education seems to vary quite a bit: this is probably dependent on the person tasked with raising them, rather than the father or mother. See Edric Storm, for example: he appears to have a very good life, but that's mostly down to Cortnay Penrose, not Robert or his mother or even Renly. Cotter Pyke, to take a contrasting example, is illiterate and appears to have been raised entirely by his mother, a tavern wench.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Sure they might be fostered out and in any case EVERY noble boy was usually fostered out at about age 7/8 as pages and then squires.

Since none of Robb, Jon, or Bran were fostered out this is irrelevant, but again, bastards would not be sent away from the family home at age 7 or 8: they'd never have been in the family home to start with.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

 Generally while young they would stay with their mother's family perhaps

Again, see Edric Storm - bastards with noble mothers generally don't stay with the legitimate family. Noble bastards born to common mothers might, I suppose, but that does nothing for your case.

Largely you seem to be making all this stuff about how bastards are treated in Westeros up in your own head.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

 Exceptions are the disasters like Ramsay Snow.

The books tell us that he is the rule. Jon is the exception.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

What about the great bastards - Bloodraven and of course Daemon -hardly non educated.

What about their numerous unnamed half brother and sisters?

The ones with noble mothers were largely educated, the ones with common mothers largely weren't.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

GRRM based his novel very much on what WAS normal behaviour in royal and noble courts in medieval Europe. Bastard kids were kept amongst the royals and educated in the same way. Often other noble an semi noble kids would also be educated in this way - eg the sons of stewards or knights in court.  There are plenty of examples of bastards raised at court.

'At court' is not the same as 'along with the legitimate children'.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

In Winterfell you see Jeyne Poole being educated alongside Sansa and Arya and this would be the expected course for most young bastards - male or female.

What does Jeyne Poole have to do with it?

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The difference between Jon and other bastards was that he seemed to have no mother's family, so essentially Ned had no choice BUT to bring him to Winterfell.

He had numerous other choices, and everyone in the books acknowledges this.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Perhaps when Jon was 7/8 or so, Ned should have fostered him out - perhaps with Jon Arryn but possibly as a bastard he could not have looked so high. The Cerwyns or Manderlys perhaps. However even by that time Cat should have realised than Jon and Robb were good friends and a good influence on each other. Only a fool of a mother would break up such a solid bond between boys, even if you hated the bastard. Look at the damage done to Robb by the other boy that Robb trusted - Theon.

... what's your point here? Because I think the case of Theon is undermining it, not strengthening it.

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Of course we can all guess that there was some secret about his parentage that meant that Ned had to keep Jon close by and probably not in the South. The real question is just why did Ned not trust Catelyn with that secret. Something in HER nature meant that Ned could not trust her.

You've clearly fixed on the idea that cat is at fault in some way, and the exercise it to determine how.

Blaming Cat for the fact that Ned didn't tell her the truth is pretty much just victim-blaming. Ned, after all, loves and trusts Cat deeply, trusts her to raise his children and even  run his kingdom for him. He shares everything in his life with her except this one thing - a thing he voluntarily shares with no-one else alive, not his brother, not his best friend, not his eldest son, no-one. The idea that he sensed some deep untrustworthiness in her nature is pure nonsense, contradicted by everything in the text.

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@mormont @Pikachu101 Thank you! I wasn't remembering it wrong lol. Jon is indeed one of the special cases. Its been a while since I've read the earlier books but I clearly remember that a bastard being raised alongside trueborn children was not the norm. Otherwise, Catelyn would have accepted it. Reading Luddagain's confident reply had me believe for a sec that maybe I had missed out on how "well" the other bastards were treated in westeros.  

 

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13 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Develish

Fully agree

We must also recognise that Jon got the idea of joining the NW in the two weeks of the royal visit, when as still just a boy, he realised probably for the first time just how significant a disadvantage being a bastard really was. Sure he knew he was different but up until that time he was always part of the family - seated on the top table. Excluded for the very first time he gets drunk (also for the first time) and we see him crying and realising that he was really not part of the inner crowd. it was in that two weeks that Benjen's idea captures him - a way to make his mark in the world, to rise to a position of power and honour and to please his father.

The real issue I think is why Ned agreed. Sure we know that Jon could never go South and needed to be kept clear of Robert (or some other enemy unknown). We know Ned loved Jon form his POV in the dungeon. Ned clearly understood that Jon would not be happy with Cat at Winterfell. The Starks have long had a tradition of honouring and serving at the Wall so it was not the strange choice many in the South would find it.  However it does seem to me that Ned could have sent Jon for say four years to the Manderlys, Cerwyns, or Glovers allowing him time to consider his future when a little older.

This is fairly sound reasoning.  Now all you need to do is look at what you wrote and see how much you yourself say Cat should be "blamed" for it.  :rolleyes: What are you two fully agreeing about here?

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13 hours ago, Luddagain said:

There are the odd hints about Robb but I agree not strong. Bran's scene in the weirwood I think can be interpreted in a way that implicates Robb just as much as Jon and I think that the Lady Dustin exchange is also a broad hint (possibly too broad) in the direction of Brandon and Cat getting together early.

I do not necessarily think Cat lied except to herself. She may not actually have been fully aware she was indeed pregnant, and possibly not fully aware she had even lost her virginity - especially if she had been drinking a bit.

The timelines  are a total mess of confusion re all the various births and so we cannot really say anything about who was born when and where. What we are told and seems to be assured (there are plenty who argue otherwise) that Robb is say 2 months older than Jon (cannot be much more). If Jon is the child of Lyanna and Reaegar born at the end of the war, then yes you can say for sure that he was conceived say 2 moths after the war started and that Robb was conceived at the very beginning of the war and thus MUST be Ned's son.

However the moment you consider that Jon really is Ned's son then you have NO exact time about his conception. He could have been born any time from say 8-11 months into the way and thus conceived from 1 month before to two months into the war, meaning that Robb was conceived any time up to 3 months before the war.

Recall that the two babies/toddlers were relocated to Winterfell probably at about 1 year of age. No body would have been too precise about the exact location of all the parties 9 moths before conception. Had Catelyn travelled North with a tribe of Ladies in Waiting, nursemaids etc I could easily accept that you could not fudge the birth dates etc. but we have no evidence of any such retinue. We are looking at a time of 4-12 weeks between Brandon being last at Riverrun and Ned marrying Cat.

Now covering up a 4 week "premature" birth is easy and has been done a million times in our real world. 8 weeks is difficult but not impossible. 12 weeks i accept would be very difficult. Mind you we also have a conflict re lady Dustin's story and timelines, since she wanted to marry Brandon but would have made do with Ned. However she already had a husband who went South with Ned, although he was not yet married.

Either there is something fishy or GRRM made a glitch

 

 

I said there was no point arguing with someone over a pet theory but to be clear the issue is not what age difference there may be between Jon and Robb but how long Cat's pregnancy was.  It's utterly normal and not remarked on yet you close your eyes to the months it would have taken for the various actors to travel round the kingdom - and I outlined their various movements and the order they happened - between Brandon last seeing Cat and Ned marrying her.  4 weeks is nonsense.  Your long pregnancy just isn't possible and that rules out dead Brandon of time tavelling sperm as the father.

The idea that Cat lies to herself about things as fundamental as the identity of her firstborn's father and the fact of her virginity on marrying Ned is baseless.  She is a POV character for three books and there are no textual hints there is something Cat is hiding about Robb the way there are hints Ned is hiding something about Jon.  You've made it clear why you don't like her but at least try and be logical and objective in assessing her character and her actions.

I mean you say she may have got drunk and not remembered sleeping with Brandon.  You are borrowing the key drama in Lysa and LF's lives which seeds LF's whole misguided fascination with Cat and desire to destroy the Starks and Tullys and ascribe it to ...Cat. 

Lady Dustin tells us that she slept with Brandon and her father would have encouraged it as a way of luring a Stark into an advantageous marriage alliance.  This seems tacit acknowledgment that they were deliberately not chaperoned.  Hoster has no need to use his daughters as bait for a Stark marriage as he is a Lord Paramount and Rickar'd southron ambitins lead him into this marraige pact.  Again you use another person's actions, Barbery's in this case, to inform yourself about Cat.  I can only say I really hope you don't judge people like this in real life, it's absurd.

I guess that is what you and Deviish "fully agree" on: confusing Lysa's and LF's actions (and anyone else's for that matter) and pinning them on Cat.

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On 8/25/2017 at 5:08 AM, Luddagain said:

 

Sunland

 

at times she is wise but often she is stupid.

Of course, most of them are sometimes smart and sometimes not.

On 8/25/2017 at 5:08 AM, Luddagain said:

The way to judge whether someone is selfish or not is to weigh up acts of kindness versus those of unkindness and then reach a consclusion.

1. Towards Jon she was unquestionably cruel (Ned's words)

2. She was a little cruel towards arya

3. she was a little cruel towards Rickon - sure under great stress but still!

How far went this cruelty towards Jon? Little cruel to Arya? Rickon? Come on.

On 8/25/2017 at 5:08 AM, Luddagain said:

 

On the other hand we see her

1. Being kind to Brienne

2. Being kind to her father

3. Loving Ned and her children

 

On balance I think she comes out as basically a kind character. but still flawed. She is certainly not the most selfish woman in westeros. 

Agreed.

On 8/25/2017 at 5:08 AM, Luddagain said:

 

However she is certainly NOT particularly emotionally stable

1. Her reaction to Bran's injury

2. Her insane handling of Tyrion

3. Her release of Jaime

4. Her final act of slitting the throat of jinglebells.

5. Her personality as Stoneheart

1. How can a mother react to such a thing anyway?

For 2 and 3 you're right, but for 2, let's not forget, she was manipulated by a great manipulator. 3 was a classic dumb move.

4. Is nonsense, what do you expect? In that situation of a massive mental breakdown, no person can keep his/her sanity. She pleaded for her son's life, a last try to save him, which is beyond any average person can do. Walder was the one who didn't care. Classic blaming victim here. 

5. This is not herself anymore. Fantasy thing of death of one personality, and birth of another. 

 

 

 

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