The result of the wight's capture strategy

[Pandean]

On 8/21/2017 at 4:59 AM, 3sm1r said:

Let's do a brief summary of what they accomplished with a plan that almost all of us already considered dumb last week.

They have been very lucky and (with two deus ex machina) they "just" gave a dragon to the NK.
In the most probable case they would have also lost Jon Snow. Can you imagine someone who goes to Sansa and say:
"we lost Jon Snow, the King of the North"
"did Daenerys kill him?"
"No, he went beyond the wall to capture a wight" (???!)

On the other side, the positive thing is that they captured a wight, which is basically nothing since the fact that they can show an un-dead does not necessarily mean that there are thousands of them on the other side of the wall.

Who's in charge here?

Can you just imagine that meeting with the other lords?

Sansa: I have some bad news; King Jon is dead

Northern Lords: Did the Dragon Queen kill him?

Sansa: *folds hands* No, he went beyond the Wall to capture a wight

Northern Lords: So

Sansa: So

Sansa: *thinking* Gods be damned, Jon. Can't you do something smart for once in your life? 

Sansa: Does anyone have Melisandre's number?

 

[3sm1r]

47 minutes ago, Infeth said:

I can't wait to see Cersei looking at Jon not giving a shit about his little moving corpse from beyond the Wall! 

Guilty, I'm also cheering for it.

38 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Can you just imagine that meeting with the other lords?

Sansa: I have some bad news; King Jon is dead

Northern Lords: Did the Dragon Queen kill him?

Sansa: *folds hands* No, he went beyond the Wall to capture a wight

Northern Lords: So

Sansa: So

Sansa: *thinking* Gods be damned, Jon. Can't you do something smart for once in your life? 

Sansa: Does anyone have Melisandre's number?

 

Yeah, it would go more or less like that. With only one difference: in Westeros they've stopped using mobile phones years ago, after Dornish Steve Jobs invented a faster and more sophisticated tool of communication: ravens.

[Sir Dingleberry]

9 hours ago, falcotron said:

Well, there's also Dragonstone, which is the only land Dany actually controls.

But I'm not talking about Euron laying siege to cities, I'm just talking about him denying mobility to Dany's army. Anywhere Cersei attacks, Dany can't do anything about it except march her armies overland, because if she tried to transport her army by sea, Euron would stop her.

Sure, this wouldn't give Euron any big exciting scenes where he can stomp around playing Danish Jack Sparrow, so maybe as a character he's useless once they finish the marriage proposal plot. But as a strategic factor in the war he isn't at all useless until Cersei loses.

I see your point but the show has ruined all of that.  Dany has been at Dragonstone the entire time and it hasn't been attacked.  The fact that Euron's fleet didn't contain her fleet in the first place just goes to show Euron's fleet was a plot convenience. And denying Dany travel does what exactly? time travel is already allowed and the show runners themselves have said they're fast tracking stuff. So, in large his fleet is now pointless, especially since this entire season his fleet has only been used in two war battles and outside of that its all Euron talking.

[Sir Dingleberry]

10 hours ago, Yoren Luck said:

He's apparently got 1,000 ships full of Ironborn, who are reavers by trade.  Assuming about 20 men per vessel, that's 20,000 fighters.  Maybe even upwards of 30 to 40 men per vessel.  I have no doubt that Cersei would have instructed him to take that force onto land if Dany and her forces would have launched a campaign near enough to King's Landing to make her nervous about a potential seige or nervous that they were going to cut Kings Landing off from their main army stationed at Casterly Rock.  

It would have resulted in an epic battle of 20,000 to 30,000 Ironborn vs 100,000 Dothraki, 10,000 Unsullied, and 3 dragons.  Ironborn would be removed from the story in one or two episodes.  

This is what is maddening to me..,Dany controls the largest force in Westeros and there shouldn't even be enough room on Dragonstone to keep all of them.  Plus Dragonstone is basically useless for the Lannisters as it was established that they didn't bother to send anyone there prior to Dany's arrival to keep the stronghold, so Dany could have left just a small guard of a few thousand Unsullied there to protect it and not lost any sleep over that at all.  She should have been campaigning in the Crownlands as early as episode 1, but Tyrion and Varys either vastly underestimate her strength with respect to the Lannister/Greyjoy forces or have lost all ability to form a military strategy this season.

I mean that battle would bad been great for show but Iron Born would have been destroyed. As we've seen in the show they're useless at holding castles (Winterfell and whatever castle Ramsey skinned all of them), alright at secret missions (mission to save Theon), annoying enough at Reaving to warrant some action but not enough to cause a big fuss, and have access to their ships pretty much at all times. But knocking the Iron Born out real quick wouldn't really fit into something the show has ever done before (oh wait I forgot about Dorne, and the Stormlands, and the Riverlands).  

Agree on the issue with Dragonstone and how stupid that debacle has been.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

The only result I see is Cersei being unimpressed and probably planning some massacre.

A lonely wight even if he survives a journey doesn't prove that his kind is a real threat. 

[3sm1r]

5 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

A lonely wight even if he survives a journey doesn't prove that his kind is a real threat. 

Thank you, you're the first one I've found who agrees with me on this point. 

[Sir Dingleberry]

30 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Thank you, you're the first one I've found who agrees with me on this point. 

 

37 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

A lonely wight even if he survives a journey doesn't prove that his kind is a real threat. 

How does it not prove the threat? I mean I understand people can still be doubtful about its overall threat but showing the wight is dead and can't die except through certain means should be eye opening for a lot of people.  Also, everyone doubted giants, the undead, magic, dragons, etc existed.  At this meeting youll have at least two of those things (dragon and undead) and magic with Jon but that doesn't really count.

[3sm1r]

22 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

How does it not prove the threat? I mean I understand people can still be doubtful about its overall threat but showing the wight is dead and can't die except through certain means should be eye opening for a lot of people.  Also, everyone doubted giants, the undead, magic, dragons, etc existed.  At this meeting youll have at least two of those things (dragon and undead) and magic with Jon but that doesn't really count.

I'm not saying it's not better than nothing. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal, and surely it was not worth the risk of the mission. But there is a further problem: for Cersei the threat of Dany is not less urgent or scary than the one of the wights. They're both existential threat and actually the one of Dany looks much closer. 
Also, the NK seems to be about to attack. If this is the case, any proof of their existence will lose any importance since... well, they'll simply show up by themselves. 

[Sir Dingleberry]

28 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

I'm not saying it's not better than nothing. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal, and surely it was not worth the risk of the mission. But there is a further problem: for Cersei the threat of Dany is not less urgent or scary than the one of the wights. They're both existential threat and actually the one of Dany looks much closer. 
Also, the NK seems to be about to attack. If this is the case, any proof of their existence will lose any importance since... well, they'll simply show up by themselves. 

I mean I agree it wasn't worth the risk at all and overall the "mission" was kind of a joke but it was entertaining.  Also, agree with the Cersei situation but I feel like the wight is going to turn everyone away from supporting Cersei. So, she'll turn into the new LF (hanging out in the background and trying to be crafty but really useless) after he gets offed (preferably this coming episode).

[Ashes Of Westeros]

3 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

 

How does it not prove the threat? I mean I understand people can still be doubtful about its overall threat but showing the wight is dead and can't die except through certain means should be eye opening for a lot of people.  Also, everyone doubted giants, the undead, magic, dragons, etc existed.  At this meeting youll have at least two of those things (dragon and undead) and magic with Jon but that doesn't really count.

Cersei has a resurrected corpse aka Ser Gregor on her service and he is no threat, because he doesn't have any will of his own. Cersei tells him what to do. So the fact that zombies exist somewhere beyond the Wall, thousands miles away won't scare her so much to make her review her priorities.

She has more urgent threats like Dany and her dragons at her doorstep, who could attack any moment.

One single wight doesn't prove the claim that there an army of dead who are controlled by some superior magic creature. Besides that Cersei probably heard the legends about WWs as a child and that the Wall is there to protect from them/

[Sir Dingleberry]

6 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Cersei has a resurrected corpse aka Ser Gregor on her service and he is no threat, because he doesn't have any will of his own. Cersei tells him what to do. So the fact that zombies exist somewhere beyond the Wall, thousands miles away won't scare her. 

She has more urgent threats like Dany and her dragons at her doorstep, who could destroy at any moment.

One single wight doesn't prove the claim that there an army of dead who are controlled by some superior magic creature. Besides that Cersei probably heard the legends about WWs as a child and that the Wall is there to protect from them/

Ser gregor is a bit different than a wight but I get what you're saying. I'm not saying it'll persuade Cersei but I think it'll persuade everyone to in essence make Cersei kind of useless.

She can choose to believe stories all she wants but she also heard stories about dragons and Dany is about to fly over Kings Landing with 2.  She's also heard stories about the Long Night, so a wight kind of lends credit to that story.  Again, not saying it'll persuade her but it does prove the fact that there is a larger threat.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

31 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Ser gregor is a bit different than a wight but I get what you're saying. I'm not saying it'll persuade Cersei but I think it'll persuade everyone to in essence make Cersei kind of useless.

She can choose to believe stories all she wants but she also heard stories about dragons and Dany is about to fly over Kings Landing with 2.  She's also heard stories about the Long Night, so a wight kind of lends credit to that story.  Again, not saying it'll persuade her but it does prove the fact that there is a larger threat.

I agree with your points. The thing is that dragons are a real thing of the past for Westerosi. They died out just a hundred years ago. There are sculls of them in the RK and some old people recall that their grandparents actually saw them.

The NK and WWs happened some 8000 ago, all information about them came in tales and legends. WWs and the Long Night are a fairytale for Westerosi as it for us.

Probably a wight would persuade Jaime or dare I say Quebryn. But who else is left? I mean a wight wouldn't  go unnoticed, but probably won't make such a big deal as it was meant to.

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

The fact that Euron's fleet didn't contain her fleet in the first place just goes to show Euron's fleet was a plot convenience.

Fine, but you seem to be arguing that Euron's fleet is a plot convenience, to back up the argument that he's useless because his fleet can't be used as a plot convenience.

10 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

And denying Dany travel does what exactly? time travel is already allowed

Again, inconsistent is not the same thing as consistently the opposite of reality. The fact that they sometimes use teleportation to fast-track a plot line doesn't mean they can't or won't ever use travel times for a plot line.

In fact, they just did this. They didn't say, "Well, gosh, we really want to put Jon and company in desperate straits and freeze Thoros to death, but we can't, because all travel is instantaneous on the show." They decided that Gendry+raven+Dany took at least 24 hours, which was enough time to support their plot. And, while there are plenty of people complaining that 24 hours seems to fast, there's nobody complaining that the plot was implausible because Gendry should have been able to teleport to Dragonstone.

Likewise, if they want to say that Dany's army can't get back to White Harbor without going by land because Euron controls the seas, they can say that. Nobody's going to argue that because that's actually plausible, the plot doesn't work.

[falcotron]

6 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Probably a wight would persuade Jaime or dare I say Quebryn.

Qyburn's first thought is going to be how he can get the wight out of the audience chamber while everyone is focused on arguing about their claims, so he can take it down to his secret lab and experiment on it and learn the forbidden secrets of the powers of the Night King. They called him mad at the Citadel, mad! But he'll show them, he'll show them all! Mwahahahahaha!

[3sm1r]

14 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Qyburn's first thought is going to be how he can get the wight out of the audience chamber while everyone is focused on arguing about their claims, so he can take it down to his secret lab and experiment on it and learn the forbidden secrets of the powers of the Night King. They called him mad at the Citadel, mad! But he'll show them, he'll show them all! Mwahahahahaha!

Lol I have actually considered a similar plot as a real possibility ^^

[Ashes Of Westeros]

 

13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Qyburn's first thought is going to be how he can get the wight out of the audience chamber while everyone is focused on arguing about their claims, so he can take it down to his secret lab and experiment on it and learn the forbidden secrets of the powers of the Night King. They called him mad at the Citadel, mad! But he'll show them, he'll show them all! Mwahahahahaha!

But a s Qybrurn trying to hack a wight  this gives me chills

[Sir Dingleberry]

2 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree with your points. The thing is that dragons are a real thing of the past for Westerosi. They died out just a hundred years ago. There are sculls of them in the RK and some old people recall that their grandparents actually saw them.

The NK and WWs happened some 8000 ago, all information about them came in tales and legends. WWs and the Long Night are a fairytale for Westerosi as it for us.

Probably a wight would persuade Jaime or dare I say Quebryn. But who else is left? I mean a wight wouldn't  go unnoticed, but probably won't make such a big deal as it was meant to.

True. I just feel like with so much stuff coming together at the same time people should start giving credit to what people are saying is happening. It doesn't help that cersei has literally pissed off everyone in some way that is left and that she is crazy but it is what it is. 

And wouldn't convincing qybern convince cersei. I mean she's out a ton of trust in this guy since she's met him. So that dynamic could be interesting.