the plot with Brienne...

[mattnj81]

3 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

My issue with this is that Littlefinger doesn't witness these clashes. So are they performing for the walls? 

True, but A - as you said, the plot hardly makes sense most of the time and they could be staying "in character" as they never know when Littlefinger may have ears outside the door, B - the conversation about the faces may have been a legitimate WTF moment for Sansa despite the fact that they are in fact plotting against Littlefinger, and C - the look on Sansa's face after she dismisses Brienne makes me think she regrets having to treat her that way but it was a necessity. 

Disclaimer: my predictions are NEVER correct.

[DirePenguin]

LF wanting Sansa to call Brienne to her side was my impression and I think Sansa might have suspected Brienne to be 1 of the people LF was talking to which was why she sent her away. Sansa could be making some move against LS/

 

Sansa targeting Arya and moving Brienne out of the way seemed very unlikely to me: if Brienne can't take down Arya there's no way Sansa can.

[Deminelle]

Sansa did not want to meet Cersei and she was confident enough sending Brienne away after realizing that Arya would be a threat only if Sansa was unfaithful to Winterfell. Which she's not.

[RhaenysBee]

14 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

True, but A - as you said, the plot hardly makes sense most of the time and they could be staying "in character" as they never know when Littlefinger may have ears outside the door, B - the conversation about the faces may have been a legitimate WTF moment for Sansa despite the fact that they are in fact plotting against Littlefinger, and C - the look on Sansa's face after she dismisses Brienne makes me think she regrets having to treat her that way but it was a necessity. 

Disclaimer: my predictions are NEVER correct.

Well, I don't think A makes even that much sense the show still has and B and C don't get me to the conclusion that Arya and Sansa are cooperating. 

Littlefinger is always shown when he's sneaking. If this was a thing, they would show him sneaking in front of the door too. 

And after season 6 episode 8, I don't believe in theories that would elevate the script to a semi-decent level. 

[Samwell_Tarly]

20 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

My issue with this is that Littlefinger doesn't witness these clashes. So are they performing for the walls? 

I cant believe people are still thinking Arya and Sansa are playing at being played even after this episode.  

 

[Illiterati]

This could be a version of Ali's classic Rope a Dope.....

Make herself to look vulnerable by sending away her sworn sword.  Set the trap for LF.

 

Orrrrrr....protecting Arya like I originally thought.

 

PS I think Arya left her bag of faces out to be seen because she was spying when Sansa said, "I don't know who she is anymore."  I think Arya was trying to show her who she is.

[Nerevanin]

16 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

My issue with this is that Littlefinger doesn't witness these clashes. So are they performing for the walls? 

This. The fact that they are not sure if someone is listening behind the door, let alone see them and yet Arya is holding a dagger at Sansa's throat and Sansa has tears in her eyes (like, why bother with such a comedy when no one can see you?), is not very convincing imo. Also, this "plan" of Arya and Sansa would mean that for a reason they are 100% sure that LF wants to set them apart. Sure, LF did a few bad things to Starks but none of the girls knows about them. But he didn't really do anything along this way to harm any of them. In fact he did what he could to protect Sansa (let's ignore the arranged marriage with Ramsay which doesn't make sense at all) including killing Lysa (not saying that he wasn't planning her death all along though). And his only crime for which Arya could blame him is that he served the Lannisters in season 2 because Arya hasn't seen him since then. Which still doesn't justify a reason why Sansa and Arya would think that he wants them to hate each other.

[Illiterati]

10 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I cant believe people are still thinking Arya and Sansa are playing at being played even after this episode.  

 

 

I still believe they are playing at being played, but I believe they are playing different games.

 

I think Arya is playing both of them but for the purpose of dismissing LF, and I believe Sansa is playing LF.

 

You'll grasp anything in show that supports your viewpoint, I'll grasp anything that supports mine.

Hopefully this is resolved next week.

[Illiterati]

4 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

This. The fact that they are not sure if someone is listening behind the door, let alone see them and yet Arya is holding a dagger at Sansa's throat and Sansa has tears in her eyes (like, why bother with such a comedy when no one can see you?), is not very convincing imo. Also, this "plan" of Arya and Sansa would mean that for a reason they are 100% sure that LF wants to set them apart. Sure, LF did a few bad things to Starks but none of the girls knows about them. But he didn't really do anything along this way to harm any of them. In fact he did what he could to protect Sansa (let's ignore the arranged marriage with Ramsay which doesn't make sense at all) including killing Lysa (not saying that he wasn't planning her death all along though). And his only crime for which Arya could blame him is that he served the Lannisters in season 2 because Arya hasn't seen him since then. Which still doesn't justify a reason why Sansa and Arya would think that he wants them to hate each other.

Arya is a pretty good spy.  She could know that LF, or one of his birds, is in earshot.

[mattnj81]

10 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Well, I don't think A makes even that much sense the show still has and B and C don't get me to the conclusion that Arya and Sansa are cooperating. 

Littlefinger is always shown when he's sneaking. If this was a thing, they would show him sneaking in front of the door too. 

And after season 6 episode 8, I don't believe in theories that would elevate the script to a semi-decent level. 

I meant more like Littlefinger having corrupted/paid servants around Winterfell to eavesdrop and get him info, much like he did in Kings Landing. So the sisters are essentially putting on a show for him, for the purpose of.... well shit, I don't even know why they would have to bother. As I said, my theories never work out but I have been clinging to the idea of Sansa outsmarting and killing Littlefinger for a few seasons now. And this utterly contrived and unnecessary conflict between Sansa and Arya makes my head explode.

I don't remember what happened in 6-08 specifically but I can't blame you. The writing has seriously gone off a cliff in recent years.

[Samwell_Tarly]

2 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

You'll grasp anything in show that supports your viewpoint, I'll grasp anything that supports mine.

Hopefully this is resolved next week.

Very true, where we all see smoke in different places we'll build a fire big enough to support that smoke.

One of us will be coming back to say ''I told you so'' 

[Nerevanin]

17 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I meant more like Littlefinger having corrupted/paid servants around Winterfell to eavesdrop and get him info, much like he did in Kings Landing. So the sisters are essentially putting on a show for him, for the purpose of.... well shit, I don't even know why they would have to bother. As I said, my theories never work out but I have been clinging to the idea of Sansa outsmarting and killing Littlefinger for a few seasons now. And this utterly contrived and unnecessary conflict between Sansa and Arya makes my head explode.

I don't remember what happened in 6-08 specifically but I can't blame you. The writing has seriously gone off a cliff in recent years.

This is going to happen and if not, I'll be very pissed off because this is what should happen. It makes sense (at least in storytelling) that the student outplays the master.

I totally agree with LF having bribed spies around WF to report everything to him. This totally makes sense. But what doesn't makes sense, imo, is to bother with tears and dagger if someone's listening to your conversation. They can't see the tears, they can't see the dagger. Why bother with them then?

[Illiterati]

33 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

This is going to happen and if not, I'll be very pissed off because this is what should happen. It makes sense (at least in storytelling) that the student outplays the master.

I totally agree with LF having bribed spies around WF to report everything to him. This totally makes sense. But what doesn't makes sense, imo, is to bother with tears and dagger if someone's listening to your conversation. They can't see the tears, they can't see the dagger. Why bother with them then?

My thought, Arya is playing her own game.  The tears and confusion from Sansa were real.  The dagger was a message to Sansa, not LF.  Done silently, something akin to passing her a note when she knows there are others listening.  "Despite everything I just said, trust me, I trust you."

The Faceless Man training thing was aimed squarely at LF.  She saw his reaction when she answered "No one" to Brienne.

I think Sansa is playing a different game.  This conversation could have put the two in alignment.

[mattnj81]

38 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

This is going to happen and if not, I'll be very pissed off because this is what should happen. It makes sense (at least in storytelling) that the student outplays the master.

I totally agree with LF having bribed spies around WF to report everything to him. This totally makes sense. But what doesn't makes sense, imo, is to bother with tears and dagger if someone's listening to your conversation. They can't see the tears, they can't see the dagger. Why bother with them then?

My guess: Because the writing is hackish and they're trying to convince the audience, not Littlefinger, that the sisters are at each others' throats. We've seen lots of stuff this season and past seasons hat makes little narrative sense, so at this point there isn't anything I would put past the writers. 

I could see Arya and Bran confronting LF, he says some sort  of "Lady Sansa will hear about this" then Sansa steps out of the shadows and LF realizes he's been had. Sansa says "We're all liars here Lord Baelish, and very one of us better than you" before having him executed. The only question is why bother, but that hasn't stopped the writers before.

[A Time for Starks]

16 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

My guess: Because the writing is hackish and they're trying to convince the audience, not Littlefinger, that the sisters are at each others' throats. We've seen lots of stuff this season and past seasons hat makes little narrative sense, so at this point there isn't anything I would put past the writers. 

I could see Arya and Bran confronting LF, he says some sort  of "Lady Sansa will hear about this" then Sansa steps out of the shadows and LF realizes he's been had. Sansa says "We're all liars here Lord Baelish, and very one of us better than you" before having him executed. The only question is why bother, but that hasn't stopped the writers before.

I agree with your take that the sisters are playing Littlefinger and it will all come to a head next episode.  I also feel like you hit the nail on the head about convincing the audience that there's tension, not so much Littlefinger.  If we saw fakeness in their acting, we would be on to it.  It creates more drama this way.

As far as the "why bother to set him up", my theory has been the Vale army.  If Sansa just had Littlefinger executed, or Arya just killed Littlefinger on her own, I think it likely the North loses the army of the Vale.  By trapping Littlefinger in some manner and exposing him, Vale lords (and by extension Robin) would be convinced to stay by her side.  Sansa may also tell Yohn Royce about Littlefinger pushing Lysa through the Moon Door just to further convince him.

[Knight of Ashes]

4 hours ago, tallTale said:

I said this in another thread but I think that Brienne going to King's landing is a bad omen for her. 

 

Cersei will probably kill Brienne which sets Jamie off. 

Because apparently, Cersei doing an Aerys and indirectly causing Tommen's suicide wasn't enough for him. 

[Nerevanin]

20 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

My guess: Because the writing is hackish and they're trying to convince the audience, not Littlefinger, that the sisters are at each others' throats. We've seen lots of stuff this season and past seasons hat makes little narrative sense, so at this point there isn't anything I would put past the writers. 

I could see Arya and Bran confronting LF, he says some sort  of "Lady Sansa will hear about this" then Sansa steps out of the shadows and LF realizes he's been had. Sansa says "We're all liars here Lord Baelish, and very one of us better than you" before having him executed. The only question is why bother, but that hasn't stopped the writers before.

OK, you're very right in the bolded part. My bad that I keep applying logic.

[mattnj81]

1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

OK, you're very right in the bolded part. My bad that I keep applying logic.

It's like when you're watching a "found footage" horror movie, and you keep thinking "Why the hell are they still filming, throw the fucking camera at the monster and run you moron" - but if they did that, there wouldn't be a movie. 

[mattnj81]

21 hours ago, A Time for Starks said:

I agree with your take that the sisters are playing Littlefinger and it will all come to a head next episode.  I also feel like you hit the nail on the head about convincing the audience that there's tension, not so much Littlefinger.  If we saw fakeness in their acting, we would be on to it.  It creates more drama this way.

As far as the "why bother to set him up", my theory has been the Vale army.  If Sansa just had Littlefinger executed, or Arya just killed Littlefinger on her own, I think it likely the North loses the army of the Vale.  By trapping Littlefinger in some manner and exposing him, Vale lords (and by extension Robin) would be convinced to stay by her side.  Sansa may also tell Yohn Royce about Littlefinger pushing Lysa through the Moon Door just to further convince him.

Gaining control of the Vale was my original thought and I think this is what Sansa will do in the books, but without Robin there in the show it seems more of a stretch. I do hope if it turns out this way there is a legitimate purpose and not just "because reasons."

[Apoplexy]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:16 AM, Illiterati said:

My thought, Arya is playing her own game.  The tears and confusion from Sansa were real.  The dagger was a message to Sansa, not LF.  Done silently, something akin to passing her a note when she knows there are others listening.  "Despite everything I just said, trust me, I trust you."

 

I agree.

I still keep wondering why Sansa would send Brienne away when LF told her to keep Brienne close.