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Dawn of Fyre

Daenerys and Jon Snow - A New Targaryen Dynasty in the Making.

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

I don't know.  I feel like Jon is going to be shooting blanks since... he died.  

Guess it depends on how much the whole Fire Wight thing transfers to screen. 

If the fire wight thing transfer to the screen, he isn't going to be shooting anything, blanks or otherwise. Being a fire wight doesn't mean no sperm, it means no blood, which means no sex.

Which means it isn't going to transfer to the screen at all.

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1 minute ago, falcotron said:

If the fire wight thing transfer to the screen, he isn't going to be shooting anything, blanks or otherwise. Being a fire wight doesn't mean no sperm, it means no blood, which means no sex.

Which means it isn't going to transfer to the screen at all.

Fire Wight? 

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Just now, falcotron said:

Which means it isn't going to transfer to the screen at all.

It's HBO. There will always be sex. :)

Ultimately though, I don't expect Jon or Dany to sit the Iron Throne. 

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Fire Wight? 

GRRM stated that Beric is a Fire Wight and that his heart isn't beating, blood isn't pumping etc. we just don't know how much of that has been transferred to the show.  I'm assuming not much, except possibly that he can't father children.  

not sure why my iPhone is capitalizing it though.  It behaves strangely on this site. 

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11 minutes ago, MissBoss said:

I think they definitely will end together !I hope !this was my wish since D-1 but it s Got so we don't know I just hope the ending will not be a disapointment..they both deserve to be happy and rewarded for all their commitment .

I really never thought they would end up together until last season and Jon´s roots, now I like them, even though they are related lol

But they deserve a happy ending, at least not dying.

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

GRRM stated that Beric is a Fire Wight and that his heart isn't beating, blood isn't pumping etc. we just don't know how much of that has been transferred to the show.  I'm assuming not much, except possibly that he can't father children.  

not sure why my iPhone is capitalizing it though.  It behaves strangely on this site. 

I must've missed that. It makes sense, though.
 

I wonder if it's because Beric looses a piece of his humanity each time he is brought back...is being a fire wight a gradual process? 

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Even though Dany and Jon aren't brother and sister, but aunt and nephew, it could definitely lead to some...not good genetics going on

Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

They had Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion.

Cersei is messed up in the head. Jamie is very codependent on Cersei. Tyrion was born a dwarf.

Cersei and Jamie also had an attraction to each other from an early age; they had Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella. Joffrey was a monster, Tommen always came off to me, personally, as soft in the head/weak-willed, and Myrcella came out  okay.

I feel like a lot of past and present Westerosi problems would be solved if there was no incest.

That being said, Dany and Jon will probably bang and have a kid. I don't think both will survive--if anything my money would be on Dany to die, but they've been hamfisting DanyxJon too much to ignore.

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Dany will sit on the Iron Throne and rule.  The only question is whether Jon will be there beside her.  Remember, this story breaks trope and nothing is more of a trope than the woman stepping aside and letting the man take the bigger role.  I think Dany will always be in the driver's seat even if she marries Jon.  Jon will be the co-driver.  Tyrion will be in the backseat talking to anyone who will listen. 

Giving the Iron Isles independence does set a precedent.  Perhaps Jon will take the North and become an independent kingdom.  Daenerys rules the South.  Yara will become Queen of the independent Iron Isles.  I can see this as a strong possibility.

A lot really depends on how Dany plans to break the wheel.  If it follows the example in Mereen, it could mean the end of hereditary rule and the question of an heir will no longer matter.  The people will get to elect their ruler.

The book has more options for the ending.  Dany could decide to finally go to Asshai.  Perhaps to find more dragon eggs and seek the truth that Qhaithe talked about.  Jon could go north and become the new King Beyond the Wall. 

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12 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

GRRM stated that Beric is a Fire Wight and that his heart isn't beating, blood isn't pumping etc. we just don't know how much of that has been transferred to the show.  I'm assuming not much, except possibly that he can't father children.  

not sure why my iPhone is capitalizing it though.  It behaves strangely on this site. 

Beric clearly is in the books and Jon should be as well.  HBO chose to ignore this and write their own plot to keep Jon's fans happy. 

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11 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I must've missed that. It makes sense, though.
 

I wonder if it's because Beric looses a piece of his humanity each time he is brought back...is being a fire wight a gradual process? 

No idea.  I don't even remember if it's explicitly referenced in the books themselves, or if Jon's resurrection will be the same as Beric's.  

Making Jon and Dany, arguably the last Targaryens, both sterile/infertile seems very GRRM.  It also plays into the bitter sweet ending he's hinted about.  

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I'm not sure how Dany will have time to sustain a full-term pregnancy and pop out a child, given how much has to be accomplished before the end of the series, even setting aside her supposed infertility.  Maybe dragon-riding is easier on a pregnant woman than horseback riding in the last weeks?  

Since I doubt that both Jon and Dany will survive, I wouldn't mind them having a living child before they die in various horrible ways.  I would worry about the kid's health, though; with its mother being the offspring of two full siblings and its father being its mother's nephew.  

In the current timeline she could get pregnant and pop out the kid in the same episode so there's your answer 

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2 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Beric clearly is in the books and Jon should be as well.  HBO chose to ignore this and write their own plot to keep Jon's fans happy. 

Can we stop with the deprecating comments about Jon fans/Dany fans?  That seriously gets old.  

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I have no idea why it's a given that Dany will never sit on the Iron Throne. She may end up sitting on top of a pile of ash in KL actually, but she'll sit there nonetheless. Odd to have put so much effort into this secret Targaryen with a claim as relevant as hers only for Martin and D&D to go, "Nah, cut that shit, their relationship doesn't matter for Westeros' future." Unpredictable, sure. Completely illogical? Most definitely. I'm all for turning a trope on its head whenever necessary, but I keep in mind what's been said before; the basic end result of book and show should be the same because Martin gave D&D those bare bones. If Jon and Dany's connection bears fruit and produces a new dynasty, it wouldn't be the first time someone from the North has married a close relative either. So as was mentioned upthread; twincest = fuck no, especially when Mad Queen Cersei is involved. Dany and Jon making little Targs = hell yeah!      

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1 hour ago, Sand11751 said:

I have no idea why it's a given that Dany will never sit on the Iron Throne. She may end up sitting on top of a pile of ash in KL actually, but she'll sit there nonetheless. Odd to have put so much effort into this secret Targaryen with a claim as relevant as hers only for Martin and D&D to go, "Nah, cut that shit, their relationship doesn't matter for Westeros' future." Unpredictable, sure. Completely illogical? Most definitely. I'm all for turning a trope on its head whenever necessary, but I keep in mind what's been said before; the basic end result of book and show should be the same because Martin gave D&D those bare bones. If Jon and Dany's connection bears fruit and produces a new dynasty, it wouldn't be the first time someone from the North has married a close relative either. So as was mentioned upthread; twincest = fuck no, especially when Mad Queen Cersei is involved. Dany and Jon making little Targs = hell yeah!      

I should have added another theory to my post: perhaps after a Jon/Daenerys marriage they will break the wheel and stop the inbreeding. However, we know that the real reason why the Targaryen did incest was to keep the dragon blood pure so they could control dragons.

The question we must ask is whether or not they would be able to keep their connection with the dragons if they stop the incestuous couplings? An interesting thought. Perhaps they will stop brother/sister marriage and keep it strictly in the first-cousin department.

Regardless, I'm still rolling my eyes at the people believing that Jon or Daenerys will die and not sit the Iron Throne. That would mean the Targaryen line dies out... Becomes extinct. And that doesn't make sense. The books and show has been hyping a returning of the Targaryen Dynasty since the start. To destroy them would not be subverting tropes, it would be shitty writing. You don't need to make Jon a legitimate Targaryen if you're not gonna use that knowledge in the future.

Jon may die defeating the Night King, but he'll get Daenerys pregnant before then so the House survives. If Daenerys dies, who would Jon marry then? Look at all the available women in Westeros atm. Yara, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Lyanna Mormont and... Who else? You see the problem here. Cersei and Yara are out of the question, and the Stark siblings would just be more incest. And Lyanna is to young, and would not appeal to the southern lords.

Any thoughts on this?

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Tywin and Joanna were first cousins.

Half the Lords in Westeros are married to cousins. Including Ned's parents. And also half the royalty and upper nobility in Europe from the late middle ages until the last century or so.

It's not because of some weird twist where incest babies prefer incest themselves. It's just that when you have strong traditions of marrying within your own social level and within your own region, there just aren't enough choices out there at the upper levels if you refuse to consider cousins.

And incest beyond the level of siblings or parents really doesn't cause genetic problems, unless you stick almost exclusively to cousins for many generations (as happened in some branches of the family between Sophia of Hanover and Queen Victoria).

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2 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Dany will sit on the Iron Throne and rule.  The only question is whether Jon will be there beside her.  Remember, this story breaks trope and nothing is more of a trope than the woman stepping aside and letting the man take the bigger role.  I think Dany will always be in the driver's seat even if she marries Jon.  Jon will be the co-driver.  Tyrion will be in the backseat talking to anyone who will listen.  

The most direct analogy to GRRM's War of the Roses inspiration would be to have Jon not be co-monarch, just a consort to unite the claims—the Elizabeth of York to Dany's Henry Tudor.

But having him be officially co-monarch but rarely exercise his power (at least during Dany's lifetime), like Mary II to Dany's William III, that works too. GRRM often starts off with one historical inspiration and then switches to another one (as with Braavos borrowing all kinds of elements from Golden Age Amsterdam even though he originally started off thinking of Venice).

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12 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

The question we must ask is whether or not they would be able to keep their connection with the dragons if they stop the incestuous couplings?

I've always suspected that the "dragonriders need special blood" thing was just 5000-year-old propaganda from Valyria, to prevent anyone else from thinking they could challenge the 40 dragon families.

I don't know whether the Targaryens believed it because by their time it had become "common knowledge", or whether they intentionally perpetuated the propaganda for the same reason as the original dragonlords. But either way, I don't think it's true.

And The Princess and the Queen pretty much convinced me I was right. For example, Nettles was a dark girl with brown eyes and black hair, and features that were so far from Valyrian that Daemon Targaryen thought she was the most exotic person he'd ever seen, and she bonded with Sheepstealer. Silver Denys, who was almost certainly half-Targaryen whether or not his father was really King Maegor, failed to bond with the dragons so badly that one of them tore his arm off and another then ate him and his entire family. And so on.

Targaryen blood is irrelevant. The dragons aren't friendly with Jon because they sense he's half-Targaryen, but because they sense that Mommy has the hots for him and trusts him. And Rhaegal will bond with Jon when he senses that Dany thinks the son of her brother Rhaegar and the dragon she named after Rhaegar should go together.

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I've always suspected that the "dragonriders need special blood" thing was just 5000-year-old propaganda from Valyria, to prevent anyone else from thinking they could challenge the 40 dragon families.

I don't know whether the Targaryens believed it because by their time it had become "common knowledge", or whether they intentionally perpetuated the propaganda for the same reason as the original dragonlords. But either way, I don't think it's true.

And The Princess and the Queen pretty much convinced me I was right. For example, Nettles was a dark girl with brown eyes and black hair, and features that were so far from Valyrian that Daemon Targaryen thought she was the most exotic person he'd ever seen, and she bonded with Sheepstealer. Silver Denys, who was almost certainly half-Targaryen whether or not his father was really King Maegor, failed to bond with the dragons so badly that one of them tore his arm off and another then ate him and his entire family. And so on.

Targaryen blood is irrelevant. The dragons aren't friendly with Jon because they sense he's half-Targaryen, but because they sense that Mommy has the hots for him and trusts him. And Rhaegal will bond with Jon when he senses that Dany thinks the son of her brother Rhaegar and the dragon she named after Rhaegar should go together.

I am aware of those events, but I was thinking for on lines of... If they keep diluting the bloodline, with other genetics makeup, would that weaken the magical properties that are thought to be in Targaryen blood?

I don't think it was propaganda, not until we get hard evidence. I lean more towards my aforementioned statement. And since this is the show, I doubt they would make it so convoluted. It is much easier to just claim Targaryen blood is magical and allows them to control dragons.

Daenerys seems to be able to mentally communicate with her dragons. Not through active thoughts, but feelings? Like, she can coordinate with her dragons to attack the wights without burning Jon and his group. I doubt anyone could form that kind of bond without Targaryen blood in the show.

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