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Iotun

How will this play out in the books?

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Is this the right place for this thread? Should it go to one of the book threads? Mods feel free to move it if need be.

Anyway, I've complained loudly about this week's and last week's episodes. What I'm interested in discussing instead, is whether you think the dragon's death will play out (or if it will play out at all), in the books.

I've two theories about what may happen in the books:

WARNING, BOOK SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
 

Spoiler

 

1) The first is, that no dragon will die in the books. But, because the show has not established the prophecy about 'the dragon has three heads', and because the show has not laid the grounds for 3 living Targaryens and potential dragonriders (there's of course debate in the book universe about whether Aegon is a true Targaryen, and whether Tyrion might be a Targaryen, plot points that have been droppem in the show), the show had to get rid of 1 dragon, since there are only 2 living Targs in the show world, rather than 3.

2) My second theory is that in the books Euron will ally with Aegon, and they will use the horn to bind one of the 3 dragons, which will be ridden by Aegon. I believe Martin has mentioned that in the books there will be a new Dance of Dragons, so in this theory, the third dragon will have been stolen and ridden by Aegon, and will die with Aegon as the dragonrider. How that happens I'm not sure. It might be in a battle with Dany. It might be that Dany and Aegon ally if they're convinced about the danger of the Night King, but Aegon is the one killed when they fly to the North, symbolic of the fact that Aegon is in fact not a true Targaryen. Which leaves Jon as the secret Targaryen to be revealed eventually to ride the third dragon, and Tyrion as the secret Targaryen who is in fact never revealed, and who should have ridden the dragon that ended up dying.

 

The fact that I'm a lot more excited by the way of reading how Martin handled this potential plot development in the books, rather than anything that the show has revealed so far I think demonstrates how the effects of abandoning plot threads from the books just makes the show weaker. The showrunners have effectively adapted the first half of the series, and are rushing to end it while ignoring what has been set up for the second half, and I think this shows in how the story has become so much weaker.

Anyway, what are your own theories?

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I think if a dragon does die, it will happen only after the three heads of the dragon prophecy is fulfilled. If the Others manage to kill a dragon, then probably a major character will die, as well, because, by then, there should be a rider for each dragon.

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I am fairly sure that at least one of the dragons will die in the books and I think that even in the books the NK will reanimate it. I think that this is quite a cool plottwist, so I suppose that it comes from GRRM's head. But I really don't expect it to be because Jon and his highly improbable fellowship go on a suicide mission  to get a zombie for Cersei and Daenerys flies in at turbo-speed and saves the day. I honestly have no idea how the dragon could happen to be killed beyond the Wall in the books that early in the story (if we expect the battle of people and NK being the end of the story and it hasn't happened yet in the show), so I'll just put out a wild theory about the NK making it throught the Wall and reanimating the dragon, which died during a battle against Cersei or so, south of the Wall. :dunno:

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Honestly I believe the show is now having to do the exact thing George never greenlit this series for a movie all those years ago.  Because they are running out of time and show they have to speed things along.  I think possibly the end of the series will match the end of the book, like the outcome will be roughly the same and some parts will be roughly the same but the way it plays out will be entirely different.  I personally believe the books will contain 3 living dragon riders, well 2 and Jon.  

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I'm partial to the theory that at the end of the story magic will be gone from the world, necessitating that all three dragons die.  One will be killed by Euron and/or Aegon.  One will be killed by an Other.  The final one will be sacrificed because it is too big of a threat to humanity as part of whatever pact ends up resolving the final conflict.

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I also think that magic will die in the end, and so will the wolves and the dragons.

Since the dragon horn is allegedly on the cover of Winds, it stands to reason that it will somehow come into play and the 'dance' was supposed to be between Aegon and Dany, but unfortunately the author's story spiraled so far out of control that the book with that title didn't fit the content, e.g. no dance probably not until book 7 if it ever comes.

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The fellowship beyond the wall won't happen in the books. I will bet anyone that. 

Though a dragon dying and being reanimated, I could see. 

I like the idea of the dragon horn to bind the dragon to someone. I always thought Euron was going to go with Danny and I still think Euron and Daario is the same person (call me crazy, I don't care) but I like the idea of Euron helping Aegon and binds it to Aegon (or at least says he is going to but binds it to himself instead of Aegon... maybe).

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Also, I was worried about the show ruining the books. 

I think because of the plot holes and everything else the show runners are doing, I am excited again for the books. I feel like it will be something way different and not too much will get spoiled as far as the journey. Obviously the destination will probably be the same, but I can live with that.

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48 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I'm partial to the theory that at the end of the story magic will be gone from the world, necessitating that all three dragons die.  One will be killed by Euron and/or Aegon.  One will be killed by an Other.  The final one will be sacrificed because it is too big of a threat to humanity as part of whatever pact ends up resolving the final conflict.

I like this theory tbh, I'd only change the final dragon's death to a sacrifice for defeating the NK.

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55 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I'm partial to the theory that at the end of the story magic will be gone from the world, necessitating that all three dragons die.  One will be killed by Euron and/or Aegon.  One will be killed by an Other.  The final one will be sacrificed because it is too big of a threat to humanity as part of whatever pact ends up resolving the final conflict.

If Drogon is left standing, Dany will not let him be a sacrificial dragon. They have too strong of a bond. On top of it, drogon is the smarter and stubborn dragon. He was too smart to not get fooled to being chained in the pits. How can anyone, even Dany get him corralled for anything.

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The prophecy about the Dragon must have three heads is an interesting one.  People have automatically assumed that "The Dragon must have three heads" means three dragons and three riders.  I think that's a red herring.  The dragon must have three heads may turn out to have nothing to do with Dany's three dragons.

As for the Dragon's, I believe they'll all die during the tale because they are massively over powered in the books.

  1. They'll either die before the Others invade, in a Dance of Dragons, and it will be another case of stupid mankind wasting a great chance to defeat the Others.
  2. The Others will get their hands on one which means they are a lot more fragile than they originally seem so can't be used as an atomic weapon against the Others (which would make stopping the Others ridiculously easy).

It's difficult to know whether Aegon and Dany will ever be in Westeros at the same.  The original 5 year gap suggests yes (see spoiler below) but the new pacing of the tale suggests no.

Originally ADWD was going to be the fourth book and would deal with Dany's arrival in Westeros and the reaction of the people Westeros to her arrival.  Given the current books Aegon would have therefore arrived within those 5 years so she'd either arrive to find him already sitting on the throne or whilst he was trying to conquer it.  Book five was going to be TWOW which would then deal with the Other's invasion of Westeros.  Book six (which has apparently now been canned all together) was going to be called A Dream of Spring and presumably would deal with events after the Others failed invasion attempt.  Or maybe would be the fight back against the Others who were unstoppable in TWOW.  What we can gather is that there is a strong chance that the order may have changed and Dany may well arrive in Westeros to find the Others invasion has already begun, because things are progressing so slowly in the books that it's unlikely she'll reach Westeros in TWOW and we already know that there won't be much direct interaction between her and Tyrion in the book.

.

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14 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said:

If Drogon is left standing, Dany will not let him be a sacrificial dragon. They have too strong of a bond.

Daenerys might not still be alive to prevent it from happening...

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Well, the show may be hitting some of the marks laid out by GRRM, but there are some things that are hard to explain:

- Sansa is in The Vale, and I'm not sure why she would go to Winterfell to be captured by Ramsay Bolton, who is known to have married "Arya" Stark by the Northerners. And why would book Littlefinger let her go?

- There is no scenario where I can see "let's go capture a wight for Cersei" appearing anywhere in the books.

- Cersei may well blow up the Sept, but I think there would be much greater consequences than her becoming the great schemer that we're seeing in the show.

- Jaime's arc has become completely muddled. You can see his character redemption, based on his interactions with Brienne and how he behaved later in the books. You can see his story arc going full circle from Kingslayer to Queenslayer, killing his lunatic sister, not bedding her and going along with her plans without a thought like in the show.

It's understandable, because there is so much in the books that you can't easily translate to the show, unless this were turned into a daytime soap opera and it ran for 15 years, but at the same time, I think the writers are working off of an outline, and they're not doing a great job of filling in the blanks this season.

 

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There's another possibility....

Nothing will happen in the books. A lot of the complaints about this season (justified imho) stem from the fact that the writers now have far too much story into far too little space.

GRRM has a much more complicated story, left off far behind S6E10, taking much longer to write, without any of the shortcuts, corner-cutting and teleportation that D&D are using.

The idea that GRRM will wrap with up in two more books without any of the pitfalls or drop in quality of the show is wishful thinking. I see this playing out in one of 3 ways:

1 It's quite likely, it won't be finished at all.

2 It will be much more than two more books, (probably leading to #1)

3 It will take the D&D route, speeding up timelines, cutting corners, abandoning threads, and changing character motivations just to get to the next plot point quicker. In this scenario, we'll probably see things play out much like the show.

 

I suspect that part of the reason GRRM hasn't said a word about the absurd plot holes and character assassination in the show these days is because he isn't sure he has anything better in the pipeline. Which at least speaks volumes in humility.

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3 hours ago, Iotun said:

Is this the right place for this thread? Should it go to one of the book threads? Mods feel free to move it if need be.

Anyway, I've complained loudly about this week's and last week's episodes. What I'm interested in discussing instead, is whether you think the dragon's death will play out (or if it will play out at all), in the books.

I've two theories about what may happen in the books:

WARNING, BOOK SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1) The first is, that no dragon will die in the books. But, because the show has not established the prophecy about 'the dragon has three heads', and because the show has not laid the grounds for 3 living Targaryens and potential dragonriders (there's of course debate in the book universe about whether Aegon is a true Targaryen, and whether Tyrion might be a Targaryen, plot points that have been droppem in the show), the show had to get rid of 1 dragon, since there are only 2 living Targs in the show world, rather than 3.

2) My second theory is that in the books Euron will ally with Aegon, and they will use the horn to bind one of the 3 dragons, which will be ridden by Aegon. I believe Martin has mentioned that in the books there will be a new Dance of Dragons, so in this theory, the third dragon will have been stolen and ridden by Aegon, and will die with Aegon as the dragonrider. How that happens I'm not sure. It might be in a battle with Dany. It might be that Dany and Aegon ally if they're convinced about the danger of the Night King, but Aegon is the one killed when they fly to the North, symbolic of the fact that Aegon is in fact not a true Targaryen. Which leaves Jon as the secret Targaryen to be revealed eventually to ride the third dragon, and Tyrion as the secret Targaryen who is in fact never revealed, and who should have ridden the dragon that ended up dying.

 

The fact that I'm a lot more excited by the way of reading how Martin handled this potential plot development in the books, rather than anything that the show has revealed so far I think demonstrates how the effects of abandoning plot threads from the books just makes the show weaker. The showrunners have effectively adapted the first half of the series, and are rushing to end it while ignoring what has been set up for the second half, and I think this shows in how the story has become so much weaker.

Anyway, what are your own theories?

I never understood the obsession with the 3 heads and then a debate over Aegon and Tyrion.  Unless Aegon is a complete pretender, meaning he's not a Blackfyre (something that would be pretty weak with all the back story of the Blackfyres), he's just as much Targaryen as Tyrion would be. They'd both be "bastards", but have Targaryen blood.  The Blackfyre line more so, since both of Daemon's parents were Targaryen.

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1 minute ago, WalkinDude said:

You're on a forum for book readers.  We're all happy you watched the TV show and think it's the greatest thing ever, but read the books and then come back.  Your antagonistic posting style is growing old, and because you've never read the books, your opinion on things really doesn't hold much weight.  

ahh guess I was mistaken by the title - Game of Thrones : The HBO TV Series........

Why do I need to read the books to analyse and comment on the show.......? So in effect you have no right to comment on story lines that have surpassed the books then if thats the case..... 

I do not think its the greatest thing ever, go read my posts then I think your opinion will change. 

I do not mix the two, go speak in the book part if you want to discuss book spoilers. I for one do not want to read them.... 

There should be another part of the forum where you can discuss the book and show in relation to each other, similarities and differences and what ever else you want to. 

Im not going to go into the book part and discuss show am I....... why should it be acceptable the other way round?

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2 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

ahh guess I was mistaken by the title - Game of Thrones : The HBO TV Series........

Why do I need to read the books to analyse and comment on the show.......? So in effect you have no right to comment on story lines that have surpassed the books then if thats the case..... 

I do not think its the greatest thing ever, go read my posts then I think your opinion will change. 

I do not mix the two, go speak in the book part if you want to discuss book spoilers. I for one do not want to read them.... 

There should be another part of the forum where you can discuss the book and show in relation to each other, similarities and differences and what ever else you want to. 

Im not going to go into the book part and discuss show am I....... why should it be acceptable the other way round?

Because that is how the site owners have structured it.  

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I'm fairly certain now one of the dragons will die, possibly by a WW. The Ice Dragon theory has been out there for years, and now it's looking stronger than ever.

 

 

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