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Iotun

How will this play out in the books?

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I think all 3 dragons will die before the end of the books and a dragon being "captured" by the Others is not far fetched. GRRM actually wrote a story called "The Ice Dragon".

The way it happened, though... no freaking way

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5 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I think all 3 dragons will die before the end of the books and a dragon being "captured" by the Others is not far fetched. GRRM actually wrote a story called "The Ice Dragon".

In 1980, and not at all connected to ASoIaF besides being written by the same author. So I'm not sure what the comparison proves. 

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1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Daenerys might not still be alive to prevent it from happening...

Even if Dany is dead.  Who will be able to conrtol the dragons? Maybe Jon, but if she is dead, and Drogon is still alive, who really will be able to control Drogon. He is more stubborn in the books than the show.

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38 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

In 1980, and not at all connected to ASoIaF besides being written by the same author. So I'm not sure what the comparison proves. 

It proves nothing. It is just a gut feeling

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4 hours ago, Iotun said:

Is this the right place for this thread? Should it go to one of the book threads? Mods feel free to move it if need be.

Anyway, I've complained loudly about this week's and last week's episodes. What I'm interested in discussing instead, is whether you think the dragon's death will play out (or if it will play out at all), in the books.

I've two theories about what may happen in the books:

WARNING, BOOK SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1) The first is, that no dragon will die in the books. But, because the show has not established the prophecy about 'the dragon has three heads', and because the show has not laid the grounds for 3 living Targaryens and potential dragonriders (there's of course debate in the book universe about whether Aegon is a true Targaryen, and whether Tyrion might be a Targaryen, plot points that have been droppem in the show), the show had to get rid of 1 dragon, since there are only 2 living Targs in the show world, rather than 3.

2) My second theory is that in the books Euron will ally with Aegon, and they will use the horn to bind one of the 3 dragons, which will be ridden by Aegon. I believe Martin has mentioned that in the books there will be a new Dance of Dragons, so in this theory, the third dragon will have been stolen and ridden by Aegon, and will die with Aegon as the dragonrider. How that happens I'm not sure. It might be in a battle with Dany. It might be that Dany and Aegon ally if they're convinced about the danger of the Night King, but Aegon is the one killed when they fly to the North, symbolic of the fact that Aegon is in fact not a true Targaryen. Which leaves Jon as the secret Targaryen to be revealed eventually to ride the third dragon, and Tyrion as the secret Targaryen who is in fact never revealed, and who should have ridden the dragon that ended up dying.

 

The fact that I'm a lot more excited by the way of reading how Martin handled this potential plot development in the books, rather than anything that the show has revealed so far I think demonstrates how the effects of abandoning plot threads from the books just makes the show weaker. The showrunners have effectively adapted the first half of the series, and are rushing to end it while ignoring what has been set up for the second half, and I think this shows in how the story has become so much weaker.

Anyway, what are your own theories?

Honestly,  I don't think they play out at all in the books.

GRRM isn't going to finish the books imo.

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3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I'm partial to the theory that at the end of the story magic will be gone from the world, necessitating that all three dragons die.  One will be killed by Euron and/or Aegon.  One will be killed by an Other.  The final one will be sacrificed because it is too big of a threat to humanity as part of whatever pact ends up resolving the final conflict.

I would hope that at least one of the dragons survives, and perhaps Dany let's him free, realizing he's too big of a danger to become a weapon for the queen of Westeros. If I were to finish the series, I would have one... Aegon takes KL with a binded dragon, after Cercei, having blown up the sept is killed by Jaimie after she threatens to retaliate against Aegon by burning the entire city. I would then have the 'binded' dragon die in a battle between Aegon and Dany. I would have Jon and Dany meeting and discovering Jon's heritage, and going off to war against the WW. I would have the second dragon, and Jon, dying in some heroic fashion, with the second dragon being re-animated. I would then have a climactic final battle, where the NK is defeated, with Drogon surviving, but Dany letting him free, after realizing just his sheer destructive power. Or maybe Dany flying off with him into the night, never to be seen again, after she realizes this was her role in life, and not to be queen - with no clear cut ruler left for the throne. I wouldn't have it be a completely sad ending, where all the heroes and all the dragons die.

But this is my own fanboyish theory, I find it hard to predict what will actually happen. I just know it won't be what we saw in the show.

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2 hours ago, Ser Sinister said:

Well, the show may be hitting some of the marks laid out by GRRM, but there are some things that are hard to explain:

- Sansa is in The Vale, and I'm not sure why she would go to Winterfell to be captured by Ramsay Bolton, who is known to have married "Arya" Stark by the Northerners. And why would book Littlefinger let her go?

- There is no scenario where I can see "let's go capture a wight for Cersei" appearing anywhere in the books.

- Cersei may well blow up the Sept, but I think there would be much greater consequences than her becoming the great schemer that we're seeing in the show.

- Jaime's arc has become completely muddled. You can see his character redemption, based on his interactions with Brienne and how he behaved later in the books. You can see his story arc going full circle from Kingslayer to Queenslayer, killing his lunatic sister, not bedding her and going along with her plans without a thought like in the show.

It's understandable, because there is so much in the books that you can't easily translate to the show, unless this were turned into a daytime soap opera and it ran for 15 years, but at the same time, I think the writers are working off of an outline, and they're not doing a great job of filling in the blanks this season.

 

Sansa's early plot has clearly taken the place of Jeyne Poole, but I do think she'll have to get to Winterfell sooner rather than later.  I really don't want it to be the case, but I think the Battle of the Bastards will take place and the Vale will ride to the rescue.  That's when Sansa will return to Winterfell.

The let's go capture a Wight "quest" may not happen like it does in the show but I wouldn't be surprised if presenting a Wight around the realm (including Cersei) happens in the books.

I think Cersei will blow up the Sept and that will be the event that makes her Queen outright.  Book Aegon may even perish in it.  As per her prophecy it's likely the "another" is Dany and it will be Dany that defeats her.  So from her prophecy alone I think she'll end up Queen and won't be deposed of until Dany does it.  In the books you also forget the Varys factor.  Varys WANTS her in power until Aegon can come along and topple her.  He'll scheme to put her in power but it'll backfire on him IMO.

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4 hours ago, Ser Sinister said:

Well, the show may be hitting some of the marks laid out by GRRM, but there are some things that are hard to explain:

- Sansa is in The Vale, and I'm not sure why she would go to Winterfell to be captured by Ramsay Bolton, who is known to have married "Arya" Stark by the Northerners. And why would book Littlefinger let her go?

- There is no scenario where I can see "let's go capture a wight for Cersei" appearing anywhere in the books.

- Cersei may well blow up the Sept, but I think there would be much greater consequences than her becoming the great schemer that we're seeing in the show.

- Jaime's arc has become completely muddled. You can see his character redemption, based on his interactions with Brienne and how he behaved later in the books. You can see his story arc going full circle from Kingslayer to Queenslayer, killing his lunatic sister, not bedding her and going along with her plans without a thought like in the show.

It's understandable, because there is so much in the books that you can't easily translate to the show, unless this were turned into a daytime soap opera and it ran for 15 years, but at the same time, I think the writers are working off of an outline, and they're not doing a great job of filling in the blanks this season.

 

- Sansa could easily end up in Winterfell in a similar situation in the books. Of course it won't be because she takes fArya's place, it'll be because she comes along with her fiance Harry to lead the Vale Lords to rescue fArya. But once that battle is over, the basic setup will be the same as in S7.*

- There could well be a cease fire arrangement. But it'll be between Dany and fAegon, not Dany and Cersei. Which will change a lot. I suppose it's possible that the wight hunt is something that makes sense for the fAegon story and became ridiculous when they twisted it to fit Cersei instead, but it seems more likely the wight hunt won't be in the books.

- Cersei could well either blow up the Sept, or defeat all of her enemies in King's Landing. Maybe even both. But either way, the consequences will be that she almost immediately loses the war to fAegon.** In the show, she takes on fAegon's defense against Dany, so the consequences have to be that she solidifies her power instead.

- Jaime's arc is, I think, just the book arc, padded out with pointless stalling and backtracking caused by the fact that in the show he can't betray Cersei until after Dany is established, while in the books he can do it after fAegon is established. If you pretend those 2-1/2 years of meaningless soap opera were actually just Jaime's dreams during one rough night in the Riverlands (that probably happened off-page), then his character makes a lot more sense.

---

* Of course lots of little details will be different—her siblings won't all show up within a week of each other, Littlefinger won't be directly controlling the Vale Lords, etc.

** Obvious possibility: Instead of taking out the Tyrells being what gets Tarly on her side, it's what gets Tarly to abandon her side. He's leading Tommen's army that's marching to fight the GC; if he switches sides right before that battle, it instantly changes the course of the war.

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7 minutes ago, Leto Atreides said:

What books? Anyone still seriously believes that GRRM will finish this?

He may not finish The Winds of Winter, but he's managed to write the first volume of Fire and Blood while supposedly not working on anything but Winds, so at this rate, Fire and Blood Part V: The Dany Restoration and the Second War for the Dawn should be done pretty soon, and we can at least read his in-universe Maester's summary of the events.

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I'm certain that one of the three dragons will die

Despite how much some people may try to express that the Direcgord cut content, they really try to keep what is normally a huge plot point. They most definitely cut content but a lot of it is filler. Aegon, Jayne, Quentyn..etc are all filler content. 

 

The death of a dragon I would consider to be a major plot point. I can't see how's GRRM will try and pretend that's dany has threats if nothing can kill her dragons. 

 

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9 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

The prophecy about the Dragon must have three heads is an interesting one.  People have automatically assumed that "The Dragon must have three heads" means three dragons and three riders.  I think that's a red herring.  The dragon must have three heads may turn out to have nothing to do with Dany's three dragons.

 

  Hide contents

Originally ADWD was going to be the fourth book and would deal with Dany's arrival in Westeros and the reaction of the people Westeros to her arrival.  Given the current books Aegon would have therefore arrived within those 5 years so she'd either arrive to find him already sitting on the throne or whilst he was trying to conquer it.  Book five was going to be TWOW which would then deal with the Other's invasion of Westeros.  Book six (which has apparently now been canned all together) was going to be called A Dream of Spring and presumably would deal with events after the Others failed invasion attempt.  Or maybe would be the fight back against the Others who were unstoppable in TWOW.  What we can gather is that there is a strong chance that the order may have changed and Dany may well arrive in Westeros to find the Others invasion has already begun, because things are progressing so slowly in the books that it's unlikely she'll reach Westeros in TWOW and we already know that there won't be much direct interaction between her and Tyrion in the book.

 

.YES!  I really think that the three Dragon's heads doesn't mean that we have three dragon riders... But Three Targaryans fighting the NK.

regarding the books... actually the last book was not called originally "a dream of spring" it was called :

Spoiler

A time for wolves

 

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12 minutes ago, falcotron said:

He may not finish The Winds of Winter, but he's managed to write the first volume of Fire and Blood while supposedly not working on anything but Winds, so at this rate, Fire and Blood Part V: The Dany Restoration and the Second War for the Dawn should be done pretty soon, and we can at least read his in-universe Maester's summary of the events.

I can unequivocally say I don't care two s** about Fire and Blood I or II.  And the fact that he's working on this instead of Winds pretty much says all that needs to be said, but I do think we will get something eventually called Winds of Winter.

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33 minutes ago, falcotron said:

He may not finish The Winds of Winter, but he's managed to write the first volume of Fire and Blood while supposedly not working on anything but Winds, so at this rate, Fire and Blood Part V: The Dany Restoration and the Second War for the Dawn should be done pretty soon, and we can at least read his in-universe Maester's summary of the events.

 

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I can unequivocally say I don't care two s** about Fire and Blood I or II.  And the fact that he's working on this instead of Winds pretty much says all that needs to be said, but I do think we will get something eventually called Winds of Winter.

People get touchy about GRRM here so let me first state that I firmly believe that he should write whatever he feels like writing and he doesn't owe anything to any of us, and his accessibility to his fans is admirable.

That being said, before I actually read the books I was convinced there would never be another one released based on all that I had read before about it.  I found it amusing how annoyed my friends who read the books were by the long wait because as an outsider it seemed obvious that GRRM was full of shit and was never going to finish the books.  Now that I've read the books I know their misery.  It is incredibly frustrating that GRRM says a lot of conflicting things and seems to give hope about finishing the series but likely won't.  His whole "gardener" approach thing is the only thing I believe that he says, and I take it to mean that he is bored with the series and completely unmotivated to write.  He knows the audience doesn't want Fire and Blood but he doesn't feel like writing Winds anymore without making significant changes to the story that wouldn't make sense since he set up a certain story 20 years ago.  I believe some of AFFC and most of ADWD is stuff he was not originally planning to write but changed up because he was bored with his original plan.

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3 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

People get touchy about GRRM here so let me first state that I firmly believe that he should write whatever he feels like writing and he doesn't owe anything to any of us, and his accessibility to his fans is admirable.

That being said, before I actually read the books I was convinced there would never be another one released based on all that I had read before about it.  I found it amusing how annoyed my friends who read the books were by the long wait because as an outsider it seemed obvious that GRRM was full of shit and was never going to finish the books.  Now that I've read the books I know their misery.  It is incredibly frustrating that GRRM says a lot of conflicting things and seems to give hope about finishing the series but likely won't.  His whole "gardener" approach thing is the only thing I believe that he says, and I take it to mean that he is bored with the series and completely unmotivated to write.  He knows the audience doesn't want Fire and Blood but he doesn't feel like writing Winds anymore without making significant changes to the story that wouldn't make sense since he set up a certain story 20 years ago.  I believe some of AFFC and most of ADWD is stuff he was not originally planning to write but changed up because he was bored with his original plan.

Yeah, i have to agree with this. Although, i do believe he will finish Winds of Winter, I don't think he will finish the last books.

 

Mostly because he is an old man who has very recently obtain a wealth and recognition He can not start to scratch things off the bucket list that were too expense. He has said it himself, he wants to enjoy his new status. 

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12 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

People get touchy about GRRM here so let me first state that I firmly believe that he should write whatever he feels like writing and he doesn't owe anything to any of us, and his accessibility to his fans is admirable.

That being said, before I actually read the books I was convinced there would never be another one released based on all that I had read before about it.  I found it amusing how annoyed my friends who read the books were by the long wait because as an outsider it seemed obvious that GRRM was full of shit and was never going to finish the books.  Now that I've read the books I know their misery.  It is incredibly frustrating that GRRM says a lot of conflicting things and seems to give hope about finishing the series but likely won't.  His whole "gardener" approach thing is the only thing I believe that he says, and I take it to mean that he is bored with the series and completely unmotivated to write.  He knows the audience doesn't want Fire and Blood but he doesn't feel like writing Winds anymore without making significant changes to the story that wouldn't make sense since he set up a certain story 20 years ago.  I believe some of AFFC and most of ADWD is stuff he was not originally planning to write but changed up because he was bored with his original plan.

I agree w/all of this, it's unfortunate but the show is going to end up being canon for the majority of the end of the story.  

So, truthfully, there are not going to be a lot of answers to 'how it goes in the books v. the show' because I expect Winds is not going to advance the plot too much...which is probably why the show has rushed to end, with a crazy set of plots that string together a lot of big moments...and next season will likely be the same, it could be somewhat better, depending on how much of the The End the author gave them.. I guess it's a mixed blessing, a lot of people will be able to spin their theories for years and years, probably forever because they will almost certainly never be contracted by the books.

I'm the opposite, though, when I first read the books/watched the show, I heard about the 5 year gap/meereen knot, and I assumed it was all resolved by the author, and that as most people predicted, thought Winds would be out by 2014.  As that came and went and I learned more and more of the backstory and the author, and then 2015 came and went, and the author still insisted he would somehow stay head of the show....I realized that he was, while probably well intentioned, not reliable.  And things have continued on from there, sadly.

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Great thread! Ugh...well I think for a while now we've seen things happen in the show that won't happen in the books. I think we need to see who the other 2 heads of the dragon are. I think that's a must.

 

As far as other aspects of the ep....well we know Sansa's story in the books at this point is totally different as in where she is now. Will she get there, possibly but her s/l in the show is off the rails. Same w/Arya.

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1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

People get touchy about GRRM here so let me first state that I firmly believe that he should write whatever he feels like writing and he doesn't owe anything to any of us, and his accessibility to his fans is admirable.

That being said, before I actually read the books I was convinced there would never be another one released based on all that I had read before about it.  I found it amusing how annoyed my friends who read the books were by the long wait because as an outsider it seemed obvious that GRRM was full of shit and was never going to finish the books.  Now that I've read the books I know their misery.  It is incredibly frustrating that GRRM says a lot of conflicting things and seems to give hope about finishing the series but likely won't.  His whole "gardener" approach thing is the only thing I believe that he says, and I take it to mean that he is bored with the series and completely unmotivated to write.  He knows the audience doesn't want Fire and Blood but he doesn't feel like writing Winds anymore without making significant changes to the story that wouldn't make sense since he set up a certain story 20 years ago.  I believe some of AFFC and most of ADWD is stuff he was not originally planning to write but changed up because he was bored with his original plan.

Agreed 100% on the first bit. I grumble about GRRM, but really, there are 1000 fantasy series out there that were finished on time, and we can all go read one of them if that's really all we care about. Also, even though I did actually give up waiting on this series years ago and only came back once everyone was talking about it because of the TV show, I'm glad I did, even if he does leave us hanging at 5 or 6 books (plus all the side stuff, and the adaptations…).

Meanwhile, although I was joking, it might not actually be so bad for him to Fire-and-Ice his way all the way through the end of ASoIaF and then come back and finish the novels. There's obviously a lot less pressure on the side stuff than the main series, and he seems to enjoy writing it more, and it's not hard to understand why it might be easier to write an impersonal Maester's history than a multi-PoV character study. And once he's actually worked out the plot, he might find it easier to come back and work out the novels. (Or, if not—well, at least he wrote some more stuff that he wanted to write and I wanted to read, even if I didn't want to read it quite as much as the novels.)

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Its possible that Lady Stoneheart & Arya end the Freys and go North of the Wall together.  The Brotherhood & Lady Stoneheart, as well as Arya, not Coldhands save Bran in this Northern expedition.  Like in Martin's original draft Catelyn dies in this expedition beyond the wall, but with the help of Coldhands they retrieve the Wight and save Bran and manage to make it back to Winterfell with the wight.  Reunion of all the Starks happens after this expedition right before King Jon goes south to Dany and meets her with this Wight in hand much to the chagrin of Sansa.  

I predict that Viserion does die, but its in this second Dance of Dragons. The Ice Dragon may be separate entity in the Books, perhaps it will be under the wall or something of that nature.  The two plot lines are consolidated because there is no fAegon in the show so they had to have an alternative way to kill Viserion.  

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