Breaking the Wheel

[falcotron]

7 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

In 1215 King John of England implemented the Magna Carta, promising protection of church rights (do you remember what happened to the High Spawn under Cersei?) and protection for the nobles from illegal imprisonment (see Jon approach on punishment of the heirs of “traitors”). They can take it and make it bigger as in the myth of a Magna Carta protecting individual freedom.

I'm not sure the Magna Carta is best model for Dany. Mostly because it was something forced on John by the barons, not something he instituted from above, and it doesn't really work the other way around. But also, it took a century and a half to get from there to a real House of Commons giving the well-off commoners any power, and I don't think Dany has that much patience. And its importance as a myth, to reassure people that the ideas of constitutional monarchy and individual freedom are fundamental to England, only comes in centuries later.

Also, the one direct, practical thing the Magna Carta did was establish the council of barons as an official thing, which could eventually evolve into a parliament. But Westeros already has something that can evolve into a parliament—the Great Council tradition. There have only been a few Great Councils, and only in special circumstances, but the Great Council of 233 set a pretty nice precedent that everyone follows what the Council decides even if they don't like it.

So: call a Great Council as soon as she takes the throne to settle all the remaining issues (who's LP of the Riverlands, that kind of thing), and proclaim that she's going to call one at least every 4 years to discuss key issues of state, and that any question that she puts before them, she will be bound to their decision. And then, 4 years later, call not only the nobles, but also a Council of Smallfolk akin to the original English Commons. It'll still take decades to shift much of the balance of power from the nobles to the smallfolk, but the mechanism for doing so will be there.

[falcotron]

 

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You should direct this comment to the Arya fans and the Jon fans.  It more accurately describes them.

No, it describes Dany fans, Arya fans, Jon fans, Tyrion fans, Sansa fans, etc. equally accurately. (And, for that matter, the Dany haters, Cat haters, Jon haters, etc. who, instead of picking someone to worship, pick someone to be their Satan.) You're not any better or worse than them; you're all doing exactly the same thing as them, just for a different "team".

One of GRRM's major inspirations in writing this series was realizing that in the Iliad, the people on both sides of the war were written heroically, and yet all of them did some things that were less than heroic, while in modern epics, only the good guys are written heroically, and the heroes never do anything less than perfect. That's what he wanted to change. If you insist on treating it like a generic 20th century epic fantasy anyway, you're missing the whole point of the series.

[OldGimletEye]

17 minutes ago, falcotron said:

snip

I don't really think D & D sit around and read North & Weingast or whatever, so they'll probably never get into much how Dany intends to break the wheel and make sure it stays broken. I'm not sure they have really thought any of this through, really. 
But, I'm inclined to think that putting limitations on the monarch is pretty important for various reasons. First unchecked monarchs or despots have the ability to waste resources on personal projects that don't benefit the country as a whole. That development in my view is pretty important to country's long term economic prosperity.
Also, of course, if the monarchy is not checked in some significant fashion, then the whole system may fall into authoritarianism, eroding whatever rights the small folk may have had. Of course, a monarch with dragons presents bigger problems. Sure, Dany may be able to make changes quickly because she has dragons, but then again, one of her progeny can make changes rather quickly as well if they have dragons. And who knows if they will have a progressive view of things. I wonder what the solution is here.
And then I wonder what is Dany's plan for future Aerys' situations. Surely, future Aerys' type shenanigans could threaten whatever system she might have in mind.

[gotviewer]

On 8/22/2017 at 0:53 PM, Skills said:

 

I think Dany dies next season, but probably not before producing a child.  Jon has to raise this child now as a bastard, probably keeping its true identity a secret as I'm sure even after victory they will still have enemies out there.  Jon comes full circle, basically becoming Ned Stark, whom he has mentioned on more than one occasion that he "was the finest man I ever knew."  Whether or not he claims the throne could go either way IMO.  But this is Jon's "life without joy," as he has lost the love of his life.  

 

It is the "bittersweet" ending that we were alluded to.  Jon survives to raise his child by himself, +/- the throne.  The "good guys" mostly win.  Dany's vision of a new world is never fully realized, but all of her accomplishments are not forgotten either.  I realize it's somewhat cliche but there are only 7 episodes left to go.  Whether or not the book follows this exactly, I have no clue.   

Or both die and Sansa gets to right the wrongs of Cat and raise an orphaned child well.  

[Lurid Jester]

54 minutes ago, falcotron said:

 

No, it describes Dany fans, Arya fans, Jon fans, Tyrion fans, Sansa fans, etc. equally accurately. (And, for that matter, the Dany haters, Cat haters, Jon haters, etc. who, instead of picking someone to worship, pick someone to be their Satan.) You're not any better or worse than them; you're all doing exactly the same thing as them, just for a different "team".

One of GRRM's major inspirations in writing this series was realizing that in the Iliad, the people on both sides of the war were written heroically, and yet all of them did some things that were less than heroic, while in modern epics, only the good guys are written heroically, and the heroes never do anything less than perfect. That's what he wanted to change. If you insist on treating it like a generic 20th century epic fantasy anyway, you're missing the whole point of the series.

Thank you for writing that.  The character tribalism here is... concerning.  

[falcotron]

30 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I don't really think D & D sit around and read North & Weingast or whatever, so they'll probably never get into much how Dany intends to break the wheel and make sure it stays broken. I'm not sure they have really thought any of this through, really. 

Sure, and even I wouldn't want them to spend S7 showing the reform committee's debates on the minutiae of the new system they're building. But I am somewhat heartened by the fact that they had Tyrion explain to Dany that her changes are going to take a long time, possibly more than a lifetime.

I suspect that, assuming Dany even sits the throne at the end, the political story will end with a discussion among Dany's council about how there's still many years of hard work ahead of them, but they have good reasons to be hopeful about the first round of reforms, and just leave it at that. And I'll be fine with that. (And, while the books might go a little further, GRRM isn't really going to give us the details of Dany's tax policies the way he joked about with Aragorn.)

Really, as long as they don't have Dany issue a proclamation that from now on everyone will be democratic and nice and then everyone lives happily ever after…

Anyway, it's still fun to talk about how Dany actually could do what she wants, even if it probably won't, and probably shouldn't, come up on the show.

30 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, I'm inclined to think that putting limitations on the monarch is pretty important for various reasons.

Yes, but the big challenge is that putting limitations on the aristocracy is also pretty important—and, until you have something like a powerful House of Commons, there's nobody who can do that except for the monarch. (Or the church, but that has its own problems.) So it's a tough balance that has to be maintained for a long time (or, alternatively, fought over in a long series of civil wars, but that's what we're trying to avoid here).

It's worth looking at the history of Aegon V (especially when we get the full version of it in Fire and Blood Volume II). Aegon grew up as a squire to a hedge knight, mostly living among the smallfolk, so when he unexpectedly ended up as King, he was dedicated to making life better for them. But he had serious problems dealing with the ways his reforms destabilized the system. Some of his lords were too weak to maintain order (he had to send the royal army into the West multiple times because of uprisings that Tytos Lannister couldn't deal with), while others were too strong and constantly threatened to rebel. He was forced to compromise with them multiple times and turn many of his reforms into vacuous promises rather than actual changes, and, soon after his death, most of the surviving reforms were undone.

30 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And then I wonder what is Dany's plan for future Aerys' situations. Surely, future Aerys' type shenanigans could threaten whatever system she might have in mind.

I think this is what Tyrion is most concerned with. She doesn't have an heir—and, even if she produces one, it's going to be the grandson of the Mad King, so how far can she trust that there won't be any future problems? I don't think his (apparent) idea of electing the King by popular consensus is a good solution, but he's right to be worried.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

6 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

It was just an example.

As nouns the difference between vassal and slave is that vassal is (historical) the grantee of a fief, feud, or fee; one who keeps land of a superior, and who vows fidelity and homage to him, normally a lord of a manor; a feudatory; a feudal tenant while slave is a person who is the property of another person and whose labor and also whose life often is subject to the owner's volition. 

http://wikidiff.com/vassal/slave

It depends on the era of slavery. In the late Roman Empire there were laws that protected slaves from abuse & murder.

Also in bastard feudalism as westeros seems to have the lords run the law courts so a serfs life is subject to their master. Tywin Lannister can murder an entire family (Reynes) if he wants. Ramsey can kill peasants with inpunity. 

Slavery is a loose term we fit to a whole host of situations that aren't related & it's very artificial which situations we decide to use it for. The atlantic slave trade & roman slavery are nothing alike but we use the same term. Serfdom is closer to roman slavery but we dont call it slavery even though the word serf is a derivitive of servus the latin for slave and the system was designed by diocletian to fill the gap of the old slavery system. I repeat as well that Essos slavery is more like Roman slavery than the atlantic slave trade & so closer to serfdom in westeros than that slave trade.

I think the problem is our use of the word slave for these different systems & the connotations the word brings up in the modern age when half those dont fit this model.

[falcotron]

38 minutes ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I think the problem is our use of the word slave for these different systems & the connotations the word brings up in the modern age when half those dont fit this model.

I don't think anyone gets confused by that except the people who are looking for absolute statements like "slavery is mankind's greatest sin" to use for propaganda purposes.

[WolfOfWinter]

I don't think breaking the wheel means anything specific or that Dany's put much thought into it. I think it's a throwaway line she uses to justify her own actions because she can't stand the thought of her being in the wrong. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

3 hours ago, falcotron said:

I don't think anyone gets confused by that except the people who are looking for absolute statements like "slavery is mankind's greatest sin" to use for propaganda purposes.

Slavery is mankind's greatest sin.  There is no grey area when it comes to slavery.  It's evil. 

Dany put an end to slavery.  The slaves are free now and it is because of Dany.  Ending the slave trade is the single greatest achievement since Aegon united the kingdoms of Westeros.  It can even be argued maybe even greater than that.  Dany deserves the credit for the freedom of millions of people.  That makes her a hero.  It's that simple. 

[Pandean]

5 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

I don't think breaking the wheel means anything specific or that Dany's put much thought into it. I think it's a throwaway line she uses to justify her own actions because she can't stand the thought of her being in the wrong. 

Break the Wheel of the noble houses except for the Targaryens because they have to rule.

 

[Pandean]

If I recall correctly, Slaver's Bay actually got worse after Dany came in there. Not just for the masters, but actually a lot more for the freedmen/slaves.

 

[falcotron]

3 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

I don't think anyone gets confused by that except the people who are looking for absolute statements like "slavery is mankind's greatest sin" to use for propaganda purposes.

Slavery is mankind's greatest sin.  There is no grey area when it comes to slavery.  It's evil. 

Dany put an end to slavery.  The slaves are free now and it is because of Dany.  Ending the slave trade is the single greatest achievement since Aegon united the kingdoms of Westeros.  It can even be argued maybe even greater than that.  Dany deserves the credit for the freedom of millions of people.  That makes her a hero.  It's that simple. 

Thanks for proving my point.

[Pandean]

3 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

I don't think anyone gets confused by that except the people who are looking for absolute statements like "slavery is mankind's greatest sin" to use for propaganda purposes.

Slavery is mankind's greatest sin.  There is no grey area when it comes to slavery.  It's evil. 

Dany put an end to slavery.  The slaves are free now and it is because of Dany.  Ending the slave trade is the single greatest achievement since Aegon united the kingdoms of Westeros.  It can even be argued maybe even greater than that.  Dany deserves the credit for the freedom of millions of people.  That makes her a hero.  It's that simple. 

Was Aegon united the Kingdom's of Westeros really so great of an achievement, though?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

4 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Slavery is mankind's greatest sin.  There is no grey area when it comes to slavery.  It's evil. 

Dany put an end to slavery.  The slaves are free now and it is because of Dany.  Ending the slave trade is the single greatest achievement since Aegon united the kingdoms of Westeros.  It can even be argued maybe even greater than that.  Dany deserves the credit for the freedom of millions of people.  That makes her a hero.  It's that simple. 

Ok

1. Did she end the slave trade? Last time we say a slave she had agreed to let them sell themselves into slavery if they liked.

2. Do you consider the peasants of Westeros slaves? 

3. Do you know the ins & outs of the Slavers Bay slave trade? Like whether slaves can purchase their freedom or if there are laws to protect them? We dont get this even in the book but what the show glosses over is that a large proportion of freed slaves preferred it before Dany took Mereen.

As I said before please don't hear the word slavery & think of the Atlantic Slave Trade as it is a completely different system.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

17 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

What you're saying is against all definitions we have in our books of history.

Being requested to swear fidelity or die is historically completely different from "be a slave or die".

If it's so different you could explain the difference then.

Imagine you're running the Night's Watch. A group of new recruits ask you how they're better off than slaves. What do you tell them?

16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Slynt is an unusual case.  He disrespected his lord commander in public and punishment was coming.  No leader in those pre-modern times can allow what Randyll and Janos did go unpunished.  Perhaps Jon should have sent Janos to the ice cells to freeze his nuts off.

No, Slynt was primarily punished for refusing to obey an order, not for the incidental disrespect. He would have been beheaded if he refused an order politely, too.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Ok

1. Did she end the slave trade? Last time we say a slave she had agreed to let them sell themselves into slavery if they liked.

2. Do you consider the peasants of Westeros slaves? 

3. Do you know the ins & outs of the Slavers Bay slave trade? Like whether slaves can purchase their freedom or if there are laws to protect them? We dont get this even in the book but what the show glosses over is that a large proportion of freed slaves preferred it before Dany took Mereen.

As I said before please don't hear the word slavery & think of the Atlantic Slave Trade as it is a completely different system.

Dany did not end the slave trade. She ended capture for slavery in Slavers Bay it seems but Essos is more than slavers bay. Volantis for example, still slaveholders The Meereen Slaves can sell themselves back into slavery, they move to Volantis and they are bog standard slaves again

[watcher of the night]

On 2017. 08. 21. at 9:18 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 Breaking the Wheel means empowering the common folk and the best way to do this is to give them the right to own land and property. 

How come Dany demands whole Westeros for herself? Don't you see the irony of the situation?

[watcher of the night]

On 2017. 08. 22. at 5:55 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It's clear to me that the lives of the majority of the people in what was once called Slaver's Bay are now much, much better after Daenerys got rid of slavery.  It really is beyond stupidity to say that their lives are not better now in comparison to when they were slaves to the masters. 

To the contrary, we know that their life was worse, it was only Tyrion's deal with the slavers that improved conditions. Also we have no idea what happened in Slaver's bay after Dany left. 

[watcher of the night]

The irony of Dany preaching about "breaking the wheel" in one sentence and then demanding everyone "to bend the knee" in the second ...