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Prince_Snow

Arya vs Sansa what are your thoughts?

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

I think Arya is sincerely worried that Sansa is too weak and fearful to be trusted not to betray the family again. She's pushing Sansa so that, if she is still driven by fear, she will break now, before Arya starts to trust her, rather than later, when she can hurt Arya more.

I think the result will be Sansa deciding to stand up to both Arya and Littlefinger by taking care of LF in some bold, public way before Arya can do anything to anyone in her sneaky way. In which case you could sort of say that "Sansa passed Arya's test", but I don't think Arya meant it as a test, only as a defense against being hurt by Sansa.

i think thats spot on, maybe arya is also channeling her training experience for sansa, maybe not even entirely consciously

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I think the whole thing is a ruse cooked up when they were out at the Weirwood Tree to draw Littlefinger out into a trap. They're both putting on a show knowing that Littlefinger has spies everywhere.

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I don't know if someone already said this but everyone is forgetting the key clue.  The dagger.  What plot is being unfolded out in full view is rarely what's happening behind the scenes.  It seems to me, that Sansa is yet again the innocent babe in the woods.  Especially with Brienne out of the picture.  This battle is between LF and Arya.  I believe LF will try to frame Arya for killing Sansa.  Or frame Sansa for killing Arya, but I think the former is more likely.  That's what he's been doing this whole time, from the beginning.  He frames people to incite a chaotic situation, in which he moves up the ladder.  That's why Arya gave her the dagger.  She knows what he's trying to do.  She senses LF may try to hurt her.  No in fact this feud between Arya and Sansa is 100% a ploy by Arya to try to get to LF.  Whether or not she will succeed...I think Arya has a better shot than LF at surviving given the shows nature of doing the unexpected.  That is, laying a false trail to deceive the viewer only to enact the reverse outcome

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It's also possible that this raven scroll that Sansa received from Cersei was a ploy by LF.  Cersei isn't even in this episode...why would she send for Sansa?  Doesn't seem real to me.  LF probably manufactured the message.  He knew Sansa wouldn't go herself, that she would send Brienne, leaving Sansa vulnerable.  Arya knows this and will probably save her sisters life. She's just being a bitch to Sansa because Sanasa's pride and vanity is causing her to be manipulated by LF

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1 hour ago, Stark side of the MoonDoor said:

I don't know if someone already said this but everyone is forgetting the key clue.  The dagger.  What plot is being unfolded out in full view is rarely what's happening behind the scenes.  It seems to me, that Sansa is yet again the innocent babe in the woods.  Especially with Brienne out of the picture.  This battle is between LF and Arya.  I believe LF will try to frame Arya for killing Sansa.  Or frame Sansa for killing Arya, but I think the former is more likely.  That's what he's been doing this whole time, from the beginning.  He frames people to incite a chaotic situation, in which he moves up the ladder.  That's why Arya gave her the dagger.  She knows what he's trying to do.  She senses LF may try to hurt her.  No in fact this feud between Arya and Sansa is 100% a ploy by Arya to try to get to LF.  Whether or not she will succeed...I think Arya has a better shot than LF at surviving given the shows nature of doing the unexpected.  That is, laying a false trail to deceive the viewer only to enact the reverse outcome

Why is Brienne out of the picture?

Why do you measure Sansa the innocent babe in the woods?

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55 minutes ago, Stark side of the MoonDoor said:

It's also possible that this raven scroll that Sansa received from Cersei was a ploy by LF.  Cersei isn't even in this episode...why would she send for Sansa?  Doesn't seem real to me.  LF probably manufactured the message.  He knew Sansa wouldn't go herself, that she would send Brienne, leaving Sansa vulnerable.  Arya knows this and will probably save her sisters life. She's just being a bitch to Sansa because Sanasa's pride and vanity is causing her to be manipulated by LF

The show doesn't state from whom the raven came, only that it was an invitation to KL.

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9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Why is Brienne out of the picture?

Why do you measure Sansa the innocent babe in the woods?

Brienne is out of the picture because she was sent to Kings Landing.  Exactly what LF wants.  And he knows that if he suggested that Brienne leave, Sansa won't do it, so he doesn't suggest Brienne leave.  He suggests that Brienne could help intercede on the girls behalf.  Reverse psychology.

Sansa is a babe in the woods (I quoted Varys on that from season 3), because you can tell by her demeanor.  She looks flustered.  Her eye movement, the tone of her voice.  That is not an act.  She is scared.  And she is coming off sophomoric by playing into LF's hands and doing exactly what he expects her to do.  I do not think Sansa is behind any ploy.  Sansa is being genuine.  It's LF and Arya who are definitely scheming.  What the audience doesn't realize is that Arya is in fact protecting Sansa.  Yes Arya is being a tad bit rude, and confrontational...But Arya has not lied to Sansa.  She isn't trying to deceive her.  LF straight up lied to Sansa.  Sansa asked him where could Arya have found the scroll (the one from season 1), and LF replies he has no idea.  This is all part of a scheme by LF to isolate Sansa, and finally his scheming has worked.  And the reason it has worked is because it looks like from Sansa's point of view that Arya is now a threat to her, not LF.  When in fact, it is LF who has always been the threat.  Arya in no way will harm Sansa, that I am 100% sure.  She's testing Sansa, so Sansa will tell LF this.  And then Arya will find a way to save Sansa from LF's scheme.  Furthermore, Sansa exemplifies hubris by completely disregarding Brienne's advice, not to make her leave, for fear of LF.  And Sansa just bitches her out and says no you must obey me

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22 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

The show doesn't state from whom the raven came, only that it was an invitation to KL.

Who else would send that raven to Sansa?  Dany's camp would never send that to her...because they know that Jon is the real power in the north and he is on a mission.  They would ask Jon before sending that raven to Sansa.  Therefore, that raven had to be sent from Cersei's camp.  Or at least pretending to be sent from Cersei.  When in fact, it was LF.  LF is a genius.  He knows Sansa won't go, and will send Brienne.  LF has gotten Sansa isolated from Jon, and now from Brienne.  All he needs is one final push to get what he wants, and Arya will come to save the day.  I do not buy in any bit that Arya has already killed LF and is using his face.  There are too many logical inconsistencies.  Arya knows that LF is trying to out maneuver them.  The x factor is obviously Bran, given his ladder comment.  So possibly Arya and Bran will swoop in to save the day for Sansa.  That seems to me the only logical outcome.  But it is also certainly possible that LF out schemes Arya and Bran, and finds a way to frame someone for murder

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No matter how this plays out Im gonna be disappointed I suspect. Unless the reason for an elaborate ploy is very good, its going to come across as totally needless and nonsensical.

Because they've done a pretty bad job of conveying Arya as competent, aside from dealing with the freys, it will be unsatisfying if she set a contrived plot and its LF's undoing.

It will also be unsatisfying in a sense if LF played them successfully(which based off the trailer line of sansas, and that bran/arya clearly can't die yet is immensely unlikely) because it would make Aryas embarrassingly poor attitude and spy skills unexplainable. I'd view it as an outright plot hole in the sense that she has faces.

lastly if its not a ploy, but they unite against LF after Bran talks to them or they bond etc. etc. its the worst of both worlds. LF is crushed nearly at random, Aryas a failure and weirdo and the whole WF arc will be pointless.

Its near certain LF is done for, which is just a shame, especially since he wasn't even doing anything villainous this season especially compared to what he's done in the past- He's supporting Sansa and his plot is only a response to Arya and the sister drama in the first place. This would have made more sense if he A. Had more power or B. Had some immensely malicious plot in the works this season. Him dying now in this fashion is a real disservice to his character. I wanted him to die with some insane plot afoot, or blindsided by something completely unforeseeable- Which could have been the supernatural elements of the Starks if done right, but the execution has been sloppy at best. 

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LF is the Machiavelli mastermind behind the series.  It would not be behind his character arc to out scheme Arya.  Arya is still fairly young whereas LF has been doing this his whole life.  And if you think they are doing a bad job, they are purposefully doing that.  It's a false trail.  That's their MO.  What if LF murders either Sansa or Arya, and frames one of the other Starks...dividing the army of the north?  He gets certain assurances and rewards from Cersei.  From some of the other northern lords.  Or what if that's about to happen, and Arya comes in and saves Sansa's life?  Could be thrilling.  Or Bran mentions that LF killed Lysa Arryn?  LF kills one of the starks, and then loses his head afterwards once Bran reveals.  Or...What if Bran admits that, and both LF and Sansa get blamed for lying to the Royces?  The scenarios you just listed are the most obvious ones.  And the most obvious ones never end up being the actual ones.  No the way they have set up this season finale it seems to me the possibilities are quite copious. (And I haven't watched the trailers yet for next week).  Sure you could be right.  It could be anti-climatic.  Given that there have been some horrible aspects to this season.  Who knows.  I don't think we can really tell.  I think D&D knew everyone would be thinking about the WF plot.  The dagger is the crux of it.  That I'm sure of.  Not many people picked this up, but the dagger was pictured in one of the books Sam was reading in the first episode.  Before he discovered that Dragonstone had dragonglass, the page before, was a picture of the exact dagger of LF.  Therefore, yes, I think it is only fitting that Bran will be involved, given that that was the dagger used to try to kill him in season one.  The dagger that LF lied to and said was his, when in fact, Joffrey I believe was the one who ordered the catspaw assasin

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True, there are some situations that would remedy some of my issues. If its revealed somehow that LF has some huge nasty plot like trying to kill one of the Starks it remedies some of my qualms. I just currently don't see the threads leading to a satisfying end. If its revealed that LF's plan is a lot more devious AND Arya has been playing him, then the beats to the next episode could be pretty good. It opening with LF setting his plan, maybe show him writing a letter to cersei etc. with then the reveal that Arya has been playing him at some point could be good. I just don't quite trust them at this point but am more than happy to be surprised.

Also the question is where Bran works into all this, does he tell Arya what LF is up to? Wouldn't mesh with her playing him. Does he enlighten Sansa to help her come around? Thats a bit better, that way Arya could still be playing LF and Bran could be involved in things finally. Alternatively if theres a big confrontation with Arya Sansa and LF, Bran could roll out and enlighten the sisters.

Basically I'm prepared to be disappointed but if A. LF has more up his sleeve than what we've seen and B. Arya isn't actually a horrible spy then I will be more or less satisfied. 

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Actually.  It seems to me that LF might be able to predict that Bran knows about his murder of Lysa Arryn.  Perhaps Bran was foolish to say that ladder comment.  Perhaps LF knows this, and might move to take out Bran.  Part of the riddle I think lies in the allegiance of the armies.  Who will the northern lords support?  Who will the vale support?  The wildlings, ironically, appear to be the only indefinite loyal army to Jon.  And if Sansa is found guilty of lying in Lysa Arryn's trial...If Jon is revealed to be the son of R+L....it's all very complicated.  But I like it.  I'm excited to see what happens between Sansa, Arya, Bran, and LF.  

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Yea I mean I don't know why Bran hasn't told Arya and Sansa everything about LF.  I don't know why Sansa is confiding in LF.  At the beginning of the season she was very stand offish, and wise, not getting closer to him.  Now, with the threat of Arya revealing that scroll to the northern lords..She's flustered and is playing right into LF's hands

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There are a lot of interesting ways it could play out, its true. If they are holding Arya's and LF's cards for the finale, it could be great. If LF has accounted for Brans knowledge, like he somewhat accounted for Arya's spying talents and suspicion, I will be impressed. I always pictured him being taken out by something supernatural that he couldn't possibly account for, but accounting for something supernatural and adapting to it is interesting too, even if it ultimately doesn't work out.

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To me.  And sorry if I’m beating a dead horse.  But, it seems that Arya is purposefully being a little ridiculous to Sansa.  Extremely hard on her.  I think everyone is like…Arya can’t you just be grateful that Sansa is alive and we have Winterfell? I think Arya knows that Sansa was forced to write that letter by the Queen.   We are all meant to question Arya’s motives.  I think it’s calculated.  I don’t think Arya is that dumb and cruel to think Sansa would just throw away everything, after what she has been through, and try to oust Jon.  So if you’re Arya…why would you do this?  You’re not actually worried Sansa is going to betray your family.  You’re doing this, so Sansa will reveal this to LF.  LF thinks he has the two stark girls fighting each other, in which case he will make his move.  Then Arya will be ready for him and possibly may kill him.  Or, if you’re LF.  You’re so smart, you’re predicting that Arya is faking this conflict…and you catch Arya off guard?  I could keep going back both ways but you know Martin has been planning this the whole time.  LF, the master manipulator faced off against Arya, who has been training as a faceless woman?  And LF is really the only guilty party in WF.  The only evil person in WF.  Everyone else is pretty honorable and good.  Either he will be killed, or he will kill someone else.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, guy, read the spoilers. We do know that

  Reveal hidden contents

Arya has no clue, Sansa is going to arrest her, building up tension since we expect she is going to execute her. And then she is going to execute Littlefinger instead because Bran has (already? long ago?) told her what he has done. And then Arya is going to cut Littlefinger's throat with the dagger so he can drown in his own blood. On Sansa's command.

 

Is this the real leak or your speculation? If it's real, then I'd really lost all hope.

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2 hours ago, DirePenguin said:

Is this the real leak or your speculation? If it's real, then I'd really lost all hope.

It is from the same source as all the other stuff that turned out to be true. At least as far as I know. But we'll learn the truth soon enough.

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4 hours ago, Stark side of the MoonDoor said:

Actually.  It seems to me that LF might be able to predict that Bran knows about his murder of Lysa Arryn.  Perhaps Bran was foolish to say that ladder comment.  Perhaps LF knows this, and might move to take out Bran.  Part of the riddle I think lies in the allegiance of the armies.  Who will the northern lords support?  Who will the vale support?  The wildlings, ironically, appear to be the only indefinite loyal army to Jon.  And if Sansa is found guilty of lying in Lysa Arryn's trial...If Jon is revealed to be the son of R+L....it's all very complicated.  But I like it.  I'm excited to see what happens between Sansa, Arya, Bran, and LF.  

I think you are starting to hint on the elephant in the room: How is it even possible that LF is not running a quite successful pleasure house in Lys by now?

I mean: he is at the home of a man who he betrayed, surrounded by his kids, one of which seems to be able to see the past.Not to mention said place is the first one that will be hit by the imminent zombie apocalypse.  If I were him, I would have departed as soon as the crippled creep spewed the "Chaos is a ladder" line, if not earlier.

And no, I will not buy the "he is in love with Sansa" motivation to stay. He was in love with Cat but was clever enough to let it go for a time, go to KL to make money and collect power and connections and bid his time. But who cares about characters´ motivation any more?

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13 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Well since the mods will NOT allow me to post this in a thread, maybe it can remain here without deletion

****************************************************

Now in ep6...

In Arya's room Sansa finds the faces.  Some people are already bashing Arya, etc.  What she laid down in her dialogue was some pretty deep and compelling stuff.

She talked to Sansa about how they wanted to be other people when they were young.  Sansa wanted to be a Queen sitting next to a young king.  Arya wanted to have a sword to go out to battle like their father.  But Arya goes really deep and maybe some of you missed it.  She talks about her training and how she learned how to be other people.  To impersonate them, to use their voice, to BE them.  And all she needs is their face.

She approaches Sansa concerning "all I would need to be you - the Lady of Winterfell - is YOUR FACE".  What does this mean, exactly?  You have to look deeper.

The implications of this are quite profound.  The comparative nature of what/who hey wanted to be as children and how it turned out they "don't get chances to choose as girls".  But Arya did choose.  She went somewhere to train to be a Faceless Man.  She can becomes anyone.  What now does this mean for Sansa?  All Arya needs is her face to become The Lady Of Winterfell.  Sansa has not really evolved at all.  She is just using her face/name/title as her identity.

That doesn't say much of what Sansa has become.  It means all anyone would have to do to BE Sansa is to wear her face!  Put on her clothing, speak like her, and *blam* Sansa has been replaced.  Hence Arya "you always did like nice things" and "I saw you as our rather was killed wearing your fancy clothes and nice hair" and in the letter "they (the Lannisters are treating me well" and basically Sansa has never had to wear rags or crawl in the mud at any point in her life.  Unlike most of Westeros that has been put down LOW.  Sansa even talks about how she has endured things you (Arya) can't imagine as if Sansa's woes were so much greater than that of others.

ALSO, Sansa "you should be on your knees thanking me for saving Winterfell" when she just simply called upon someone else to come help - not doing it herself.  Arya, on the other hand, has done EVERYTHING herself.  And her "training" that Sansa scoffs at, has kept her alive - unlike Sansa who has been kept alive and safe by others throughout the whole story.

As I have been saying for almost all of season 7 now, Sansa is not irreplaceable.  She has no skills or abilities that cannot be impersonated or are unique to her and only her.  All she has is a face and a voice.  Arya can BECOME her if she wants to. If they impersonate her corporeal persona and wear her fancy clothes, they can BE her.  Unlike Arya, who has many other diverse skills that cannot be impersonated by simply wearing her face.

I thought this was pretty heavy and is bringing the comparison between the two sisters to very fascinating heights.  And I think that was the underlying point Arya has being making toward Sansa all along.

Good point. Maybe too deep for D&D, but it's a nice explanation. Do you think Arya is doing this to push Sansa to be better? To improve and see her flaws? Or she's just pointing this out because she pretends to be in Sansa's place? 

 

15 hours ago, Prince_Snow said:

Hi guys,

I've read and seen many comments on the Arya vs Sansa storyline in this season and specifically this episode 6 which pissed off a lot of people to watch Arya being a psychopathe with no empathy for Sansa.

Even though it felt over dramatised, I think Arya is well aware of LF's game, she is testing Sansa's will to know how much of the young Sansa is left in her, after all they haven't seen each other in a while, she wants to be sure Winterfell is in good hands; I think she's waiting to catch LF and play his game making him loose his guard, before stabbing him in the heart.haha

Well, that is just my thoughts, I don't think D&D and all the writer's team would write a stupid bully psychopathe Arya, she is well trained and saw in this episode that her sister is redeeming herself by fighting for her house ( without her, Ramsey would still be there) and that they will at the end have at least mutual respect if not some sort of sister to sister love.

What are your thoughts about it?

It's bugging me so much. This isn't the Arya we saw with Ed f* Sheeran, or the Arya we saw with Hot Pie and Nymeria. I just hope it's something more than D&D creating stupid tension just because.

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Another factor that makes this whole plot ridiculous is that we are meant to believe Sansa will make a move to have Arya 'taken care of' when she sends Brienne away. Arya has added armour-Jon. He already knows she is in Winterfell. He is not going to believe a word Sansa says. At best if Sansa hurts Arya she's exiled, at worst, she's executed. Sansa has no way of making a move to get rid of Arya without consequence.

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