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Prince_Snow

Arya vs Sansa what are your thoughts?

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He knows about the Game of Faces because Arya just told him about the Game of Faces.

 

He sees and hears EVERYTHING either himself or through a spy.  Many of us don't seem to understand that, but I know Sansa does and I'm sure Arya does.  They don't have to put a skit on in front of him for him to be their audience.

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:34 PM, Prince_Snow said:

Hi guys,

I've read and seen many comments on the Arya vs Sansa storyline in this season and specifically this episode 6 which pissed off a lot of people to watch Arya being a psychopathe with no empathy for Sansa.

Even though it felt over dramatised, I think Arya is well aware of LF's game, she is testing Sansa's will to know how much of the young Sansa is left in her, after all they haven't seen each other in a while, she wants to be sure Winterfell is in good hands; I think she's waiting to catch LF and play his game making him loose his guard, before stabbing him in the heart.haha

Well, that is just my thoughts, I don't think D&D and all the writer's team would write a stupid bully psychopathe Arya, she is well trained and saw in this episode that her sister is redeeming herself by fighting for her house ( without her, Ramsey would still be there) and that they will at the end have at least mutual respect if not some sort of sister to sister love.

What are your thoughts about it?

I think that a portion of the viewing audience is having difficulty connecting information into a cohesive big picture. This is one example. Here are the facts that Arya knows:

1. She was told Jon was king in Winterfell; favoring Jon, she goes to Winterfell to reunite.

2. She arrives at Winterfell to find Jon has been drawn away and Sansa is in charge.

3. She immediately sees Littlefinger is at Winterfell, and by Sansa's side.

4. Last time Arya saw Littlefinger, he was a known Lannister conspirator plotting with Tywin at Dreadfort to kill Rob (a plot that came to fruition before Arya at the scene of the Red Wedding).

5. She sees the north lords being persuaded to turn against Jon and join Sansa.

6. She sees Littlefinger (apparently) follow Sansa's order to find and hide a message.*

7. She reads said message which shows Sansa betraying the Starks and pledging to the Lannisters.

8. Sansa avoids her questions about a possible desire to by queen of Winterfell.

She also knows that Sansa thought Arya was dead and so would never have expected her to arrive in Winterfell in the first place.

Given all of these things, how could any rational person not come to the conclusion that sansa has the stink of Lannister conspirator all over her? True or not true, it's undeniable that all of these facts are pointing reasonably at incrimination of Sansa. Arya has no killed sansa, but she has put on a show of force (sparring with Brienne) and is engaging in intimidation tactics to let Sansa know that if she is harboring any ideas, if these indicators are pointing the truth; then Arya will kill Sansa for betraying the Starks and conspiring with Lannisters. 

*this one is clearly Littlefinger's manipulation of the event, but it is not the "one and only" reason for Arya's suspicions: it is the culminative piece, the proverbial straw on the camel's back, that is lending force to Arya's suspicions. 

In the end, Arya is reacting appropriately, might even say, reserved reaction giving her sister the benefit of the doubt (if this was someone else but her blood; she probably would have already killed them just to be on the safe side for Jon); the audience is that which is reacting irrationally in thinking Arya should not be behaving like someone who highly suspects a Lannister conspiracy in the midst of her home.

 

Also I would call that Arya almost certainly doesn't know Littlefinger was making Sansa look bad with the message (again, that one message is just the final piece of a bigger picture, and isn't the cause of Arya's suspicions, but is icing on the cake); but that Sansa does now know that Littlefinger is involved. This is why she sent Brienne away right after Littlefinger suggested using Brienne against Arya because of her oath. Also why Sansa stayed in Winterfell; because if she left, Littlefinger would take over and she has to stop him.

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19 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I don't take the plot that way at all.  I take everything as pointing toward a sting of LF.  Originally, I thought both sisters were in on it.  then I came to the belief that this was Arya's game only.

Sansa baiting LF with fear of Arya, then sending Brienne away, leads me to conclude that both girls are in on it.

 

The speech Arya gave about girls and the rules was a foreshadow.  No one is supposed to outwit LittleFinger, the master of wit.  Especially a couple aristocratic little girls.  They're breaking the "rules" because they will beat him at his own game.

Sansa has NO mind to harm Arya, and Arya has NO mind to harm Sansa.

I agree but we are meant to think Sansa wants to harm Arya. So we get a surprise. But what doesn't make sense is why the characters are acting this way at all to get to such a 'shock'. Neither can get away with hurting the other.

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11 hours ago, John Meta said:

I think that a portion of the viewing audience is having difficulty connecting information into a cohesive big picture. This is one example. Here are the facts that Arya knows:

1. She was told Jon was king in Winterfell; favoring Jon, she goes to Winterfell to reunite.

2. She arrives at Winterfell to find Jon has been drawn away and Sansa is in charge.

3. She immediately sees Littlefinger is at Winterfell, and by Sansa's side.

4. Last time Arya saw Littlefinger, he was a known Lannister conspirator plotting with Tywin at Dreadfort to kill Rob (a plot that came to fruition before Arya at the scene of the Red Wedding).

5. She sees the north lords being persuaded to turn against Jon and join Sansa.

6. She sees Littlefinger (apparently) follow Sansa's order to find and hide a message.*

7. She reads said message which shows Sansa betraying the Starks and pledging to the Lannisters.

8. Sansa avoids her questions about a possible desire to by queen of Winterfell.

She also knows that Sansa thought Arya was dead and so would never have expected her to arrive in Winterfell in the first place.

Given all of these things, how could any rational person not come to the conclusion that sansa has the stink of Lannister conspirator all over her? True or not true, it's undeniable that all of these facts are pointing reasonably at incrimination of Sansa. Arya has no killed sansa, but she has put on a show of force (sparring with Brienne) and is engaging in intimidation tactics to let Sansa know that if she is harboring any ideas, if these indicators are pointing the truth; then Arya will kill Sansa for betraying the Starks and conspiring with Lannisters. 

*this one is clearly Littlefinger's manipulation of the event, but it is not the "one and only" reason for Arya's suspicions: it is the culminative piece, the proverbial straw on the camel's back, that is lending force to Arya's suspicions. 

In the end, Arya is reacting appropriately, might even say, reserved reaction giving her sister the benefit of the doubt (if this was someone else but her blood; she probably would have already killed them just to be on the safe side for Jon); the audience is that which is reacting irrationally in thinking Arya should not be behaving like someone who highly suspects a Lannister conspiracy in the midst of her home.

 

Also I would call that Arya almost certainly doesn't know Littlefinger was making Sansa look bad with the message (again, that one message is just the final piece of a bigger picture, and isn't the cause of Arya's suspicions, but is icing on the cake); but that Sansa does now know that Littlefinger is involved. This is why she sent Brienne away right after Littlefinger suggested using Brienne against Arya because of her oath. Also why Sansa stayed in Winterfell; because if she left, Littlefinger would take over and she has to stop him.

I whole-fucking-heartingly agree.

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19 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

It's time for him to go because he serves no purpose in the war against the dead.  His character is meaningless.  

Thats fine, the main thing is him getting a proper resolution. If he died this season with a wicked plot afoot and was outmatched or blinded sided in a reasonable way, I'd be fine with it.

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Brienne is sent away so she doesn't get involved. Arya disappears or departs winterfell with clues showing she was possibly murdered. Sansa kills Littlefinger (slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow). Arya takes his face and the Knights of the vale are kept sweet. Arya's disappearance gets rid of the problem of never seeing her or Littlefinger in the same room.

We have to assume that Littlefinger is listening to all their conversations, so an outright murder plot against him is unwise.

Arya's training made her collect a lot of information about her intended targets. It appears that Littlefinger has the upper hand but I don't think he does.

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23 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It would be MUCH better if the two girls were conspiring.  Or even if Arya had put on an act.  If there was so level of subterfuge going on with both or one of the Starks.  No doubt about it.

It's possible, but I doubt it, based on past history every single time the audience has collectively said 'this is too stupid, there is something more, another level' it has not been true.  Talisa was not a spy.  The waif did not kill Arya.  

So, on balance, I think what we see is what we get.  LF is for certain getting killed with that dagger, it couldn't be more obvious but the specifics of who/why I guess we will find out next week.  Cause his shelf life is well beyond it's expiration date and his doing nothing all season has diminished his character, IMO.  Better that they killed him last year or early this year instead of dragging it out.

Thank you!

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The problem i see with the idea that the last confrontation was for Littlefinger's benefit bacause he "hears and sees everything" is that, if true, Arya needlessly outed herself as a Faceless Man. LF did not know this. LF did not need to know it for any plan the girls might have. I see no advantage in announcing it as they did, therefore I gotta think at least Arya thinks that conversation was between just the two of them.

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If it's a fake confrontation to lure out LF, what is the goal?  What's he going to do as a result of the fake confrontation that he hasn't already done that will be the final trap?  

Is it going to be sufficient that he hinted that Sansa might need to take Arya out?  But, he's already hinted that Sansa should have taken Jon out....so....that would be weak.

 

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4 hours ago, Khal Al said:

We have to assume that Littlefinger is listening to all their conversations, so an outright murder plot against him is unwise.

Im sorry-- why do we have to assume that??

if that ends up being the case, and this is all a Stark girl ruse to troll LF (for REASONS), I'll be sorely disappointed in the entire Winterfell arc for the season. Odds are good I will be regardless. The Stark girls getting cute with taking out LF while he prances around sowing discord amongst Jon's bannerman is incredibly naive and dangerous. 

That would be a shit plot, worthy only of the trash.

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32 minutes ago, The Special Pug of Belfast said:

Im sorry-- why do we have to assume that??

if that ends up being the case, and this is all a Stark girl ruse to troll LF (for REASONS), I'll be sorely disappointed in the entire Winterfell arc for the season. Odds are good I will be regardless. The Stark girls getting cute with taking out LF while he prances around sowing discord amongst Jon's bannerman is incredibly naive and dangerous. 

That would be a shit plot, worthy only of the trash.

Shittier than Dany swooping into save the day or shittier than Jon turning up just as all hope was lost? Littlefinger uses information like other people use swords. It will be his undoing.

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:34 PM, Prince_Snow said:

What are your thoughts about it?

Littlefinger is actually just snitching on the sisters.  Sansa and Arya are not good people.  Sansa is very selfish and very self-serving.  That letter actually proved she was willing to put Robb in danger to save herself.  That's not the type of person you want ruling over Winterfell.  I can almost guarantee you that Sansa will not be ruling anything or anybody in the books.  George is hyper logical and the text has so far made clear that Sansa is a very selfish person.  Arya, well the girl collects trophies just like deranged serial killers do.  A nut house is the best place for her.  The show can decide to throw out continuity and make her the "most moral person in the universe" in episode 7 and really tank the story.  They could do it just for fan service.  The writing is just that bad now.  

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Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Littlefinger is actually just snitching on the sisters.  Sansa and Arya are not good people.  Sansa is very selfish and very self-serving.  That letter actually proved she was willing to put Robb in danger to save herself.  That's not the type of person you want ruling over Winterfell.  I can almost guarantee you that Sansa will not be ruling anything or anybody in the books.  George is hyper logical and the text has so far made clear that Sansa is a very selfish person.  Arya, well the girl collects trophies just like deranged serial killers do.  A nut house is the best place for her.  The show can decide to throw out continuity and make her the "most moral person in the universe" in episode 7 and really tank the story.  They could do it just for fan service.  The writing is just that bad now.  

What trophies?  Do you mean the magical process for her blood magic?

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7 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

What trophies?  Do you mean the magical process for her blood magic?

Them ain't fried pork skins in her bag. :) The faces of her victims.  She collects them.  Sansa found a bag of human faces in Arya's room.   

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50 minutes ago, The Special Pug of Belfast said:

Im sorry-- why do we have to assume that??

if that ends up being the case, and this is all a Stark girl ruse to troll LF (for REASONS), I'll be sorely disappointed in the entire Winterfell arc for the season. Odds are good I will be regardless. The Stark girls getting cute with taking out LF while he prances around sowing discord amongst Jon's bannerman is incredibly naive and dangerous. 

That would be a shit plot, worthy only of the trash.

If you've watched the entire series, assuming every word spoken is getting back to LF is a wise thing for Sansa to do for certain.

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9 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Littlefinger is actually just snitching on the sisters.  Sansa and Arya are not good people.  Sansa is very selfish and very self-serving.  That letter actually proved she was willing to put Robb in danger to save herself.  That's not the type of person you want ruling over Winterfell.  I can almost guarantee you that Sansa will not be ruling anything or anybody in the books.  George is hyper logical and the text has so far made clear that Sansa is a very selfish person.  Arya, well the girl collects trophies just like deranged serial killers do.  A nut house is the best place for her.  The show can decide to throw out continuity and make her the "most moral person in the universe" in episode 7 and really tank the story.  They could do it just for fan service.  The writing is just that bad now.  

Sansa would have been too naive to realize she was putting Robb in danger.  She thought she was saving her father's life with that letter.  She was a child who got played by Cersei and Littlefinger.

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4 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Them ain't fried pork skins in her bag. :) The faces of her victims.  She collects them.  Sansa found a bag of human faces in Arya's room.   

Those are not trophies those are for a magical skill a trophy would be something to be admired or looked at.

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22 minutes ago, Khal Al said:

Shittier than Dany swooping into save the day or shittier than Jon turning up just as all hope was lost? Littlefinger uses information like other people use swords. It will be his undoing.

Ok you have me there :cheers: 

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