Viserion....

[Ser Hyle]

20 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I honestly don't understand why people assume the books will be completely different than the show. As if GRRM hasn't already given them the outlines and as many details as he possibly can, as they've all stated numerous times. 

This should help you understand. Every part of the show that doesn't directly follow the books (ie. the role of Dorne and Dornish characters apart from Oberyn who held true to the books) absolutely sucks in comparison.

If you're expecting Jon, The Hound, Beric, Tormund, Gendry, Thoros and Jorah to go on a bro mission beyond the wall to capture a wight in order to convince Cersei to call a truce in the coming war for succession (or something similar) in the final two books, I think you're going to be sorely mistaken.

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, Holly Macaroni said:

All in all, as much as it costs us, it was a good move for Viserion to agree to join the dead in what's certainly the most shocking transfer of this summer.

This is the problem with the loosening of the free agency rules. It used to be, you could root for a team and root for its players. If you're a Cal Ripken fan, you're an Orioles fan. Nowadays, your favorite player is likely to be on the rival team next year, so it's hard to get attached. I don't blame Viserion for taking advantage of the rules exactly as they were intended to work, I blame the owners' and dragons' associations for creating those rules.

[Holly Macaroni]

4 hours ago, falcotron said:

This is the problem with the loosening of the free agency rules. It used to be, you could root for a team and root for its players. If you're a Cal Ripken fan, you're an Orioles fan. Nowadays, your favorite player is likely to be on the rival team next year, so it's hard to get attached. I don't blame Viserion for taking advantage of the rules exactly as they were intended to work, I blame the owners' and dragons' associations for creating those rules.

By the way, huge plot hole: whatever was made of jean-marc of house bosman. see? it's these kind of things the show runners should pay more attention to!

[ShadowKitteh]

8 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

This should help you understand. Every part of the show that doesn't directly follow the books (ie. the role of Dorne and Dornish characters apart from Oberyn who held true to the books) absolutely sucks in comparison.

If you're expecting Jon, The Hound, Beric, Tormund, Gendry, Thoros and Jorah to go on a bro mission beyond the wall to capture a wight in order to convince Cersei to call a truce in the coming war for succession (or something similar) in the final two books, I think you're going to be sorely mistaken.

Wow. Thanks so much for mansplaining to me. I would be lost without you. 

[Super Mario]

On 8/23/2017 at 6:40 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

I honestly don't understand why people assume the books will be completely different than the show. As if GRRM hasn't already given them the outlines and as many details as he possibly can, as they've all stated numerous times. 

GRRM has Writing & Co-Executive Producer credit on every single episode. You think he would allow that if he hated what they're doing?

Sure, they've cut characters and storylines, combined characters, and had to change some things due to the impossibility of filming scenes such as the chain for Blackwater. In my opinion, all for the better. 

But the the chances the main arcs and endings for all the major characters are going to be the same as the book, are high I think. No reason really to think otherwise.

The endings I agree with. GRRM has more or less supplied the endings in a general sense. It's the journey to those individual endings that is likely to have some major disparity.

[Lurid Jester]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Wow. Thanks so much for mansplaining to me. I would be lost without you. 

Really? Mansplaining?

 

[ShadowKitteh]

2 hours ago, Super Mario said:

The endings I agree with. GRRM has more or less supplied the endings in a general sense. It's the journey to those individual endings that is likely to have some major disparity.

I agree, and already has. Not debating that whatsoever.

[TommyJ]

What i don't get from last episode, how does a dragon can turn into a WW?

A dragon spits fire and fire should destroy a WW.

Will Viserion die when he spits fire? I mean he'll probably die from inside.

Or am I totally wrong?

[Joey Crows]

I'll admit I only read the first page and the last page of comments. So this may have already been addressed. But we all know that theories about of ice dragons abound. Helped on (or not) by the RPG game series and of course referenced throughout the histories of Westeros. 

It would seem that the show writers are doing a bit of what they love to do this season, which is obviously in some cases, and more circumspectly in others, giving fan/lip services to popular theories or textual possibilities. In this case, someone said, "We probably need to do the whole ice dragon thing I've been reading so much about on Buzzfeed."

And having the NK pull out a "dead" Viserion with some huge chains and doing his WW magic to turn him into a weapon of the dead was the easiest way to make it happen.

Show watchers only will think "holy fuck that's crazy, buuuttt what now?" (some of them) And book readers who watch will think "holy fuck that's crazy, but I think there might be a real ice dragon somewhere else."

Either way. It makes more sense the less you think about it. Which doesn't make it any less entertaining to watch. Also, my entire philosophy for the last 2 seasons. Don't think to hard and enjoy the ride. When the books finally come out is when I'll find the answers. Probs  
 

[SerMudz]

I live with a non book reader who thinks it makes perfect sense that they're trying to convince Cersei that the threat beyond the wall is real because then she will join the fight. I've told him that makes no sense considering her character but it just shows how they're writing to please the casual fan and they're well aware how easy it is to make them believe whatever they're trying to sell 

[Jordan La Cabra]

10 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

Either way. It makes more sense the less you think about it. Which doesn't make it any less entertaining to watch. Also, my entire philosophy for the last 2 seasons. Don't think to hard and enjoy the ride. When the books finally come out is when I'll find the answers. Probs  
 

I completely agree with this.

The less you try to work it out and just watch and enjoy it for what it is, the better the show becomes. The show is no longer canon, in my eyes. Just an adapted story taking place in a world I love with characters I love. Why not just sit back and let what happens happen? You might even begin to enjoy it.

I will know what really happens next in the true story when Winds of Winter comes out. The show is just something to keep us entertained and invested. Because if it was down to the books alone, my interest would definitely have waned considering the ever growing gap between Dance and Winds.

[falcotron]

28 minutes ago, TommyJ said:

What i don't get from last episode, how does a dragon can turn into a WW?

A dragon spits fire and fire should destroy a WW.

Will Viserion die when he spits fire? I mean he'll probably die from inside.

Or am I totally wrong?

Fire doesn't destroy a White Walker.

Fire does destroy a wight. But even if Viserion is a wight rather than a White Walker, it might not kill him. As Sam puts it, it's as if their skin were coated in flammable oil, and obviously a human (or horse, or bear) corpse covered in burning oil is going to disintegrate pretty quickly. If that oily coating is only on the outside (we really don't know), he's not going to die from the inside. And would a dragon corpse covered in burning oil be hurt at all?

 

Plus, we don't even know that he still breathes fire. Maybe he breathes a freezing wind, or some kind of magical cold anti-fire. Or maybe he doesn't have a breath weapon, and he's just a kick-ass flying mount.

Finally, even if he could breathe fire, and doing so would kill him, the Night King doesn't seem like an idiot—he just wouldn't have Viserion breathe fire.

[Stormourne]

12 minutes ago, SerMudz said:

I live with a non book reader who thinks it makes perfect sense that they're trying to convince Cersei that the threat beyond the wall is real because then she will join the fight. I've told him that makes no sense considering her character but it just shows how they're writing to please the casual fan and they're well aware how easy it is to make them believe whatever they're trying to sell 

I'm a book reader, and to a certain point, it does make sense trying to convince Cersei in the show - however, they should also look at ways of disposing her while the armistice is in place. Continuing a war with her while the White Walkers break through the wall would be devastating to the North. That you think it makes no sense makes no sense. Unless you assume Daenerys could have just ended the war in five minutes, rallied all the troops in Westeros, and somehow marched north to defend the Wall without resistance. Provide me an alternative that makes sense and I'll acknowledge your (lack of an) argument.

[TommyJ]

7 minutes ago, SerMudz said:

I live with a non book reader who thinks it makes perfect sense that they're trying to convince Cersei that the threat beyond the wall is real because then she will join the fight. I've told him that makes no sense considering her character but it just shows how they're writing to please the casual fan and they're well aware how easy it is to make them believe whatever they're trying to sell 

I know a lot of non book readers who dont think this makes any sense

Allmost all my friends think this will end terrible wrong, that cersei will do something terribly wrong by refusing to help or will help and do an action like the battle of blackwater bay, when geoffrey ordered to kill Tyrion at the battle front

Of which Im also scared of. That she ordered her soldiers that as soon the knight king is defeated (or during the battle) they will kill Dany and Jon

 

Or maybe she has a total different plan, cause she invited Sansa for that meeting and I dont know why she would do that

But I also dont know which evil plan that might lead to

[TommyJ]

14 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Fire doesn't destroy a White Walker.

Fire does destroy a wight. But even if Viserion is a wight rather than a White Walker, it might not kill him. As Sam puts it, it's as if their skin were coated in flammable oil, and obviously a human (or horse, or bear) corpse covered in burning oil is going to disintegrate pretty quickly. If that oily coating is only on the outside (we really don't know), he's not going to die from the inside. And would a dragon corpse covered in burning oil be hurt at all?

 

Plus, we don't even know that he still breathes fire. Maybe he breathes a freezing wind, or some kind of magical cold anti-fire. Or maybe he doesn't have a breath weapon, and he's just a kick-ass flying mount.

Finally, even if he could breathe fire, and doing so would kill him, the Night King doesn't seem like an idiot—he just wouldn't have Viserion breathe fire.

Ah ook Thanx! Did not knew that.

 

So valerian steel and dragonglass are the only two things that kill a white?

always assumed dragonfire would also do that tric cause it does destroy in my vision everything

 

[falcotron]

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

The show is no longer canon

Sorry for the rant here—you're just the 69105th person to talk about canon, and you didn't say anything nearly as bothersome as most of the 69104 before you, and you didn't even call it "cannon", but…

I've never understood why so many people care about "canon" so much. The idea of canon started off as part of a fun little game by Sherlock Holmes fans, but modern fans have turned it into a weird obsession that serves no purpose except to prevent them from enjoying things.

I can understand the obsession with canon in cases where you're worried that an inferior work being considered canonical will constrain the possibilities for a later superior work (e.g., imagine that George Lucas took Splinter of the Mind's Eye as canon, and therefore decided he couldn't let Lawrence Kasdan do half the cool stuff he wanted to in Empire Strikes Back because it contradicted stuff from that book). But that's obviously not relevant here.

And otherwise, what's the issue? None of it "really happened"—that's the whole point of fiction. And canon doesn't tell you what's worth reading or watching—the quality of the individual stories or versions is all that matters for that.

And meanwhile, the show wasn't "canon" from the start, and couldn't possibly have been. There's no way 70-odd hours of mass-market TV could have contained the entire story. Even if they'd had hundreds of hours, an unlimited budget, and no interest in ratings, there are still tons of things they'd have to change simply because the medium is different—I mean, half the story in the novels is characters' internal monologues. So right from the start, you know you were going to end up with two conflicting versions of the story, and if you care about canon, one of those can't be canon.

OK, rant over, back to talking about whether Viserion is a wight or a white walker and what that means for the Night King's gas bill.

[falcotron]

2 minutes ago, TommyJ said:

So valerian steel and dragonglass are the only two things that kill a white?

always assumed dragonfire would also do that tric cause it does destroy in my vision everything

All we really know for sure is that normal fire does nothing at all to them—in fact, it goes out when it gets close to them, as seen at the battle at Hardhome.

Dragonfire might be special. It's probably hotter than most normal fires (certainly hotter than a torch or Beric's sword or a flaming arrow). And it's magical. And it's called "dragonfire", just like Valyrian steel is called "dragonsteel" and obsidian is called "dragonglass", which are the two things we know hurt white walkers, so…

We'll probably find out when Dany and her dragons show up to fight the army of the dead the next time, in the big battle.

[Stormourne]

17 minutes ago, TommyJ said:

I know a lot of non book readers who dont think this makes any sense

Allmost all my friends think this will end terrible wrong, that cersei will do something terribly wrong by refusing to help or will help and do an action like the battle of blackwater bay, when geoffrey ordered to kill Tyrion at the battle front

Of which Im also scared of. That she ordered her soldiers that as soon the knight king is defeated (or during the battle) they will kill Dany and Jon

Or maybe she has a total different plan, cause she invited Sansa for that meeting and I dont know why she would do that

But I also dont know which evil plan that might lead to

What you're writing in relation to this "no sense" argument makes no sense. What you're criticizing is that they should know better than to trust Cersei, which is a fact. The whole armistice makes sense. Jon does not want to be at war with Cersei while the true war is the North. How in the fucking world does that not make sense?

So stop saying it makes no sense, and start saying that they are foolish enough to think Cersei won't try to murder them while this pseudo-peace is enacted. Which, I may add, Daenerys is aware that Cersei will try to have them murdered. I would hope that Daenerys is planning some way to murder Cersei in return. Although that is not what a 'hero' does, fuck being a hero. Kill the bitch and save the realm.

Slay the whore and bang the king, is what I would advise Daenerys

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sorry for the rant here—you're just the 69105th person to talk about canon, and you didn't say anything nearly as bothersome as most of the 69104 before you, and you didn't even call it "cannon", but…

I've never understood why so many people care about "canon" so much. The idea of canon started off as part of a fun little game by Sherlock Holmes fans, but modern fans have turned it into a weird obsession that serves no purpose except to prevent them from enjoying things.

I can understand the obsession with canon in cases where you're worried that an inferior work being considered canonical will constrain the possibilities for a later superior work (e.g., imagine that George Lucas took Splinter of the Mind's Eye as canon, and therefore decided he couldn't let Lawrence Kasdan do half the cool stuff he wanted to in Empire Strikes Back because it contradicted stuff from that book). But that's obviously not relevant here.

And otherwise, what's the issue? None of it "really happened"—that's the whole point of fiction. And canon doesn't tell you what's worth reading or watching—the quality of the individual stories or versions is all that matters for that.

And meanwhile, the show wasn't "canon" from the start, and couldn't possibly have been. There's no way 70-odd hours of mass-market TV could have contained the entire story. Even if they'd had hundreds of hours, an unlimited budget, and no interest in ratings, there are still tons of things they'd have to change simply because the medium is different—I mean, half the story in the novels is characters' internal monologues. So right from the start, you know you were going to end up with two conflicting versions of the story, and if you care about canon, one of those can't be canon.

OK, rant over, back to talking about whether Viserion is a wight or a white walker and what that means for the Night King's gas bill.

The point is, I do enjoy the show. I openly admit that I love the show, in fact. Which is something it seems, from this forum anyway, that is almost blasphemy to come from a book reader. Part of the reason I think I can love both is because I can separate both instead of criticising everything that hasn't come from GRRM's brain. Maybe bandying the term 'canon' around is wrong, I admit. But to me, a lot of what has happened in the last season and this season are just completely made up for the show.

On topic, I believe what happened Viserion is an example of that. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it happening and think it was good for the TV show. But the books came first. In that sense, say what happened to Viserion doesn't happen at all in the books, which one do I believe is the real representation of what happened in the fictional world of Westeros at the time we are seeing? Which will be the story I think of in years to come when someone ask me what happens in the fictional story of Westeros? Of course I am going to tell them what happens going by what happens in the books, which came long before the show.

Yes, it wasn't canon from the start, but it relied a lot more on what was written by GRRM. Now the poor showrunners have been left with nothing but an outline, which may change by the time of publication, to work with. They are going out on a limb. Their own limbs. Not GRRM's old limbs.

I know none of it really happened as it is all fiction. But I look at the two as the original source and the secondary source. The books are the original and the show is secondary. But I love them both.

[Ser Hyle]

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Wow. Thanks so much for mansplaining to me. I would be lost without you. 

You're welcome. I'm glad you now understand why more astute fans are aware that the show will continue to be significantly different from the books if they're ever actually completed and released.