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E.S. Dinah

Queen Daenerys Targaryen will rule Westeros

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Out of the two, I find it more likely that Dany survives than Jon actually. I don't think she will interested in the throne herself after his death however. She's fought for it for so long, and now when it's finally hers, she no longer want it. Perhaps she will focus on raising and nurturing their child to become a good and benevolent ruler instead?

Of course, they might both die, and they might both survive. 

GRRM said that the one who sits the Iron Throne at the end would be "someone unexpected", meaning "not Danaerys". In GRRM's mind, Jon is unexpected, even if he isn't in our's.



Jon and Dany's child is unexpected.
People like to talk about how things on this show are cliche, but in my opinion, having Jon - the *unwilling* King - end up on the Ironthrone would be the biggest cliche of them all.

Edited by MinscS2

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7 minutes ago, Ser Meryn Frey said:

No, that would be such a stereotypical, boring clichée. She has to die. She has been the favorite winner all the way since season 1.

It would be a huge dissapointment if she survives and rules happliy ever after. This is not "bittersweet" in any way - it is plainly sweet.

GRRM said that the one who sits the Iron Throne at the end would be "someone unexpected", meaning "not Danaerys". In GRRM's mind, Jon is unexpected, even if he isn't in our's.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if they changed the end from the book-ending to something they created themselves, but then it would be a change for the worse ... as basically all major changes have been.

I would prefer a different ending than the books, so that I'll be mildly surpised when reading book seven. 

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Jon and Dany's child is unexpected.

I think we're going to see someone sitting there before any potential J+D=? baby.  

Or is the throne going to remain vacant until the baby is conceived, born and grows up?

I know who I expect it to be, and it's not a Targaryen.  

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Out of the two, I find it more likely that Dany survives than Jon actually. I don't think she will interested in the throne herself after his death however. She's fought for it for so long, and now when it's finally hers, she no longer want it. Perhaps she will focus on raising and nurturing their child to become a good and benevolent ruler instead?

Of course, they might both die, and they might both survive. 
 



Jon and Dany's child is unexpected.
People like to talk about how things on this show are cliche, but in my opinion, having Jon - the *unwilling* King - end up on the Ironthrone would be the biggest cliche of them all.

Dany is more likely to survive than Jon because she has a lot of important things to do.  How long she stays in Westeros is an interesting question that we can debate.  She will "break the wheel" as the popular theory assumes and then she can choose to move on to the next part of the world that needs help.  She is a big time hero and it is in the nature of a hero to help.  No one in history has ever had three dragons, an Unsullied infantry, and a Dothraki cavalry at her command.  All that power was given to Dany for a very good reason and Westeros is not a big enough pond.  She has a lot of things to do and I think what ever those are, it is to help make that world a better place.  She will rule Westeros, in my opinion, and see it through the recovery period, break the wheel, and so on.  I can see her going to Asshair afterwards in the novels but we will not see that on the show. 

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1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

I think we're going to see someone sitting there before any potential J+D=? baby.  

Or is the throne going to remain vacant until the baby is conceived, born and grows up?

I know who I expect it to be, and it's not a Targaryen.  

I hope it's not a Stark or anyone with Stark blood. I hate those Starks.   I'm pulling for Daenerys to take the throne herself and rule for as long as she wants. 

Edited by Texas Hold Em

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14 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

I hope it's not a Stark or anyone with Stark blood. I hate those Starks.   I'm pulling for Daenerys to take the throne herself and rule for as long as she wants. 

Yeah, cuz they're so horrible. :rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Damned Starks!  I never liked any of them.  I never liked Jon.  It's time to exterminate them. 

That totally makes sense and is a reasonable response to the story. 

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40 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Dany is more likely to survive than Jon because she has a lot of important things to do.  How long she stays in Westeros is an interesting question that we can debate.  She will "break the wheel" as the popular theory assumes and then she can choose to move on to the next part of the world that needs help.  She is a big time hero and it is in the nature of a hero to help.  No one in history has ever had three dragons, an Unsullied infantry, and a Dothraki cavalry at her command.  All that power was given to Dany for a very good reason and Westeros is not a big enough pond.  She has a lot of things to do and I think what ever those are, it is to help make that world a better place.  She will rule Westeros, in my opinion, and see it through the recovery period, break the wheel, and so on.  I can see her going to Asshair afterwards in the novels but we will not see that on the show. 

I don't see a Targaryen on the IT. Dany certainly has things to do in the story, but when she conceded that the real threat was north of the wall, she may just die fighting that threat.

Bran was the first chapter in the first book, which makes me think he is extremely important to the story. Although it's unlikely he sits the IT, it's possible it will one of the Starks.

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The person who ends up on the IT could indeed be someone unexpected. There is major violence yet to come. The living have to unite against the undead in order to have a fighting chance. The question is whether they will sort out their differences (meaning: cull the opposition leaders) now or after the conflict with the NK. Conceivably, most of the show's protagonists could end up dead before the end, and the person who goes on to rule will be the one who has the best survival instinct rather than being most heroic or wisest. I think that that's how GRRM would set it up, but of course the show has gone down it's own path.

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5 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Damned Starks!  I never liked any of them.  I never liked Jon.  It's time to exterminate them. 

What a great contribution to this discussion.  Everyone is now eager to know more about your in-depth reflexion on this matter.

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5 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Damned Starks!  I never liked any of them.  I never liked Jon.  It's time to exterminate them. 

It's good to see that someone is reading the original version of the story rather than GRRM's inferior hu-man translation. All Starks will be exterminated by the superior race. Advance and attack, attack and destroy, destroy and rejoice! Ex-ter-mi-nate! Ex-ter-mi-nate! Daleks are the masters of Westeros! Daleks are the masters of Westeros!

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On 8/22/2017 at 7:08 PM, E.S. Dinah said:

Daenerys Targaryen will become the second ruling queen of Westeros after she takes the Iron Throne.  She is the person who is best fit to rule and reform the kingdom.  She deserves to rule.

 

  1. Daenerys always finds a way to win.  She was forced to marry Khal Drogo and turned that to her advantage.  Where most women would wilt away, Daenerys won Drogo's respect.  She was badly outnumbered and yet she found a way to free the Unsullied from their Astapori masters.  She took Yunkai without a siege and won the Second Sons (Storm Crows in the text) over to her side.  She defeated the masters and took their ships.
  2. Dany has proven herself capable of bettering the lives of people.  Like many, many fans have posted on this very forum, millions of people in the East now enjoy freedom because of Daenerys Targaryen.  She dismantled the slave trade and made sure no one in the future will ever be enslaved again.  Part of making that happen required taking complete control of the Dothraki by getting rid of the khals, the source of most of the slaves.
  3. Daenerys has a regal bearing.  It's been said more than a few times by more than a few people.  Daenerys has the elegance and the bearing of a monarch.  I have now watched every episode of the show, an exercise that took up many hours, and I do not recall a single scene in which Daenerys utters a profanity of any kind.  Whereas most of the characters regularly drop the f-bomb, shit, and the c-word, Daenerys always chooses intelligent words to express herself.  She always carries herself with dignity.  Just watching that scene right before she executed the Tarlys was like watching a God delivering judgment.  It just felt right.  It was right and it was the right decision to handle someone like Randyll Tarly and his son.
  4. Daenerys' story is a parallel to that of her great ancestor, Aegon the Conqueror.  Aegon gave people the same choice.  Bend the knee or die.  A few minor but arrogant kings, like Durrandon, Hoare, and Gardener had to die before Westeros bent its knees and became all the better for it.  You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. 
  5. Daenerys knows how to seize the moment.  She took advantage of the cult of R'hllor to help bring peace and hope to Meereen.  While not a religious person herself (which is a good thing), she knows the value of religion and belief.  She uses them to her advantage, like any capable ruler should.  Like any capable politician should.
  6. I liked that topic thread crediting Dany's public speaking skills.  She is the best orator among the main characters.  Her keen intelligence and timing enhance her considerable communications skills. 
  7. Daenerys has travelled the Free Cities.  She can speak many different language, from the Common Tongue, to High Valyrian, to Dothraki.  She is a very knowledgeable person.  In a land whose idea of a "formal education" is having been spoon fed by the Maesters, Dany has traveled widely and actually gained real world experience. 
  8. Daenerys looks like a Targaryen.  She has those physical traits that are uniquely Valyrian.  She has awakened dragons from stone.  She is Azor Ahai.  She is the Mother of Dragons.  Her identity cannot be disputed nor questioned by anyone. 
  9. Jon already bent his knees and thus bound the North to Daenerys.  Regardless of how Sansa feels about it, when those wights come calling on Winterfell, it won't be to deliver pizza.  Even foolish Sansa would swallow her pride and bend her knees to Dany, if she wants to survive the long night.
  10. *Midnight Confession asked that I add this to the list:  Daenerys is fireproof, which is as close to a god as you can get in that universe.  Another sign that she is truly very special. 
  11. And this one comes from the fan discussions on the previous episode.  The people of Slaver's Bay (Bay of Dragons now) are better off now than they were before Dany got rid of the masters.  This is proof that Dany improves the lives of the people.  She is the best choice to lead Westeros for the long term.

I wrote this partly in response to the many fans' concerns about too much fan service and how it may affect the ending.  While I can agree that there is a lot of fan service on the show.  That is true.  However, I also believe that the show and the books will reach the same conclusion:  Daenerys Targaryen on the throne and ruling Westeros.  No other ending would make any sense. 

The writing on the show can get lazy at times and too many shortcuts just to force a scene to happen.  Case in point:  Gilly finding that passage regarding Rhaegar's annulment.  It's blatantly contrived.   I believe that they ad lib on the smaller parts but the ending of book and show will agree and Daenerys will rule Westeros at the end of the story.

You present a strong case and she will rule Westeros in the end.  Then again, do keep in mind that logic, reason, and sense no longer matter on the show.  I am certain Dany will rule Westeros in the books, which is as you know is the real story.  The show will likely remain true to GRRM's ending but it is not out of the question that they could do something completely illogical and write their own ending.

I do want to comment on Breaking the Wheel.  We know very little of the actual plans for this but we can look at how Daenerys liberated the slaves and ended the slave trade in Essos.  It was a grand plan that involved more than taking the slaves away from their masters.  The overarching goal was not only to free the ones currently enslaved but to prevent the masters from enslaving in the future.  The first step involved taking control of an army, the Unsullied.  Then liberating Yunkai and Meereen.  One of the most important part of the slave trade that had to be addressed is the Dothraki.  So now that scene in Vaes Dothrak actually makes a lot of sense.  Daenerys had to give the khals a choice:  follow her lead away from slaving and go west.  They refused, so they had to die so Dany can take control of the Dothraki.  I will write a separate topic on the Dothraki.  But it is very interesting that one of the biggest "wheels" in the slave trade was used to help end the slave trade!  How cool is that!  I say brilliant.  Breaking the wheel in Westeros will be complicated and I do not see anyone else having the ability to carry this out.  Tyrion is quite clever but he's not great.  He's not up to the task.  Jon is not what you can call great either.  Read the thread on his battle record.  Daenerys is the great one.  She's the only one capable of pulling off large scale reform.  She has already done it and succeeded in Essos. 

 

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7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

You present a strong case and she will rule Westeros in the end.  Then again, do keep in mind that logic, reason, and sense no longer matter on the show.  I am certain Dany will rule Westeros in the books, which is as you know is the real story.  The show will likely remain true to GRRM's ending but it is not out of the question that they could do something completely illogical and write their own ending.

I do want to comment on Breaking the Wheel.  We know very little of the actual plans for this but we can look at how Daenerys liberated the slaves and ended the slave trade in Essos.  It was a grand plan that involved more than taking the slaves away from their masters.  The overarching goal was not only to free the ones currently enslaved but to prevent the masters from enslaving in the future.  The first step involved taking control of an army, the Unsullied.  Then liberating Yunkai and Meereen.  One of the most important part of the slave trade that had to be addressed is the Dothraki.  So now that scene in Vaes Dothrak actually makes a lot of sense.  Daenerys had to give the khals a choice:  follow her lead away from slaving and go west.  They refused, so they had to die so Dany can take control of the Dothraki.  I will write a separate topic on the Dothraki.  But it is very interesting that one of the biggest "wheels" in the slave trade was used to help end the slave trade!  How cool is that!  I say brilliant.  Breaking the wheel in Westeros will be complicated and I do not see anyone else having the ability to carry this out.  Tyrion is quite clever but he's not great.  He's not up to the task.  Jon is not what you can call great either.  Read the thread on his battle record.  Daenerys is the great one.  She's the only one capable of pulling off large scale reform.  She has already done it and succeeded in Essos. 

 

It's really wonderful how Dany took control of the Dothraki khalasars and gave them a new purpose.  Sort of makes up for all those years when they were raiding villages and selling people to slavery.  It's a larger, bigger version of Jorah the slaver's story.  This is redemption for Jorah and on a larger scale, redemption for the Dothraki people.  Smart move.  I hope the Ironborn find redemption as well.  Transporting Dany's troops across the sea is a good deed towards that end.  If only Theon could figure out a way to take out his uncle and take control of the Iron Fleet! 

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Dany will rule Westeros in the end.  That's the whole point of the story.  It's the reason why slaver's bay was important.  If the practice of slavery which has gone on for thousands of years can be ended the ending of feudalism in Westeros is easier by comparison.  This is the meaning, or one of the meanings of breaking the wheel.  I agree it's more than redistributing land.  There's more to it and we will know more about the plan when the others are defeated (or turned back for another 10000 years!). 

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1 minute ago, Casca Longinus said:

Dany will rule Westeros in the end.  That's the whole point of the story.  It's the reason why slaver's bay was important.  If the practice of slavery which has gone on for thousands of years can be ended the ending of feudalism in Westeros is easier by comparison.  This is the meaning, or one of the meanings of breaking the wheel.  I agree it's more than redistributing land.  There's more to it and we will know more about the plan when the others are defeated (or turned back for another 10000 years!). 

In the books, I think Daenerys' fate is much more obscure. Slavers Bay returned to slavery right after she moved her army on from there. I'm not even sure she would head back there to reconquer the city.

A child of Daenerys and Jon Snow will sit the Iron Throne in the end. That much I'm sure about in terms of the show.

Will Daenerys transition her rule from feudalism to an absolute Monarchy? Trying to create some form of constitutional monarchy would not make sense since historically, that has taken centuries and many, many wars.

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4 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

In the books, I think Daenerys' fate is much more obscure. Slavers Bay returned to slavery right after she moved her army on from there. I'm not even sure she would head back there to reconquer the city.

A child of Daenerys and Jon Snow will sit the Iron Throne in the end. That much I'm sure about in terms of the show.

Will Daenerys transition her rule from feudalism to an absolute Monarchy? Trying to create some form of constitutional monarchy would not make sense since historically, that has taken centuries and many, many wars.

The books are not as far along as the show.  I don't blame that on George.  There was so much material from the books that the show chose to leave out.  There was enough material there to carry the show forward while we wait for The Winds of Winter.  Instead they gave us the train wreck that we got in this episode.  Slaver's Bay will be successful because Dany will make sure the slaves are free and they will remain free.  That's the reason why she needs to go back to the Dothraki.  Ending the slave trade will mean stopping the point of entry.  The masters will have to be dealt with as well as they are responsible for all of the problems.  They refused to give up slaving.  

Any child that results from Dany and Jon will be too young to sit the throne.  Dany will sit the throne.  She is the most fitting person to sit the throne.  Jon is unfit to rule.  I admit, I am slightly biased because I love Dany.  Still, the story would be such a big waste if Dany doesn't end up ruling Westeros.  I think the books will do even better and Dany will become the Empress of the Dothraki, the Ghiscari, and the Westerosi peoples.

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50 minutes ago, Casca Longinus said:

The books are not as far along as the show.  I don't blame that on George.  There was so much material from the books that the show chose to leave out.  There was enough material there to carry the show forward while we wait for The Winds of Winter.  Instead they gave us the train wreck that we got in this episode.  Slaver's Bay will be successful because Dany will make sure the slaves are free and they will remain free.  That's the reason why she needs to go back to the Dothraki.  Ending the slave trade will mean stopping the point of entry.  The masters will have to be dealt with as well as they are responsible for all of the problems.  They refused to give up slaving.  

Any child that results from Dany and Jon will be too young to sit the throne.  Dany will sit the throne.  She is the most fitting person to sit the throne.  Jon is unfit to rule.  I admit, I am slightly biased because I love Dany.  Still, the story would be such a big waste if Dany doesn't end up ruling Westeros.  I think the books will do even better and Dany will become the Empress of the Dothraki, the Ghiscari, and the Westerosi peoples.

I love Jon Snow as a character because he has a good heart. His lack of communication skills got said heart stabbed... But I love him nonetheless. :) He has the potential to be a good king, with the right council and right queen. Daenerys has her flaws, and so does Jon, but together, I think they can temper whatever inadequacies they have and become great co-rulers. 

I think a Westerosi-born king would ease tensions with the lords who still view Daenerys as a foreign invader who brought foreign savages into Westerosi lands. And with her burning the Tarly Lord and son, she forced the Lannister/Tarly men to bend the knee out of fear. And those men will now be hard pressed to love her. And she needs the love of the people. That's why Jon Snow is her ideal match - that he is also a Targaryen who can secure the future for House Targaryen is a bonus. I think she will become pregnant. His seed is kissed by fire, so to speak, lol. She was reborn in flames, and he was resurrected through a fire-god. The symbolism and parallels are there.

They will "break the wheel" but the shift from feudalism to something else, something better will take generations. I think we will see the seeds being planted for this better future in the finale of season 8.

 

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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4 hours ago, Casca Longinus said:

The books are not as far along as the show.  I don't blame that on George.  There was so much material from the books that the show chose to leave out.  There was enough material there to carry the show forward while we wait for The Winds of Winter.  Instead they gave us the train wreck that we got in this episode.  Slaver's Bay will be successful because Dany will make sure the slaves are free and they will remain free.  That's the reason why she needs to go back to the Dothraki.  Ending the slave trade will mean stopping the point of entry.  The masters will have to be dealt with as well as they are responsible for all of the problems.  They refused to give up slaving.  

Any child that results from Dany and Jon will be too young to sit the throne.  Dany will sit the throne.  She is the most fitting person to sit the throne.  Jon is unfit to rule.  I admit, I am slightly biased because I love Dany.  Still, the story would be such a big waste if Dany doesn't end up ruling Westeros.  I think the books will do even better and Dany will become the Empress of the Dothraki, the Ghiscari, and the Westerosi peoples.

I'm a Dany fanboy myself, mon ami.  There is nothing that I would like better than to have Dany survive and rule wherever she wants for the next 80 years.  I think it is a very safe bet that she will do so in the books.  The show is less certain because the show writers are clumsy and they don't know how to write a good story.  They get their ideas from the fans and it's all fan fiction now.  But to be fair, George let them down because he failed to finish the books.  So we don't know what ending the show will have.  Perhaps killing off the secondary characters like Jaime, Arya, Sansa, Cersei, and Samwell would be bittersweet enough.  Hell, the death of Viserion is bittersweet enough to last a lifetime.  I say keep the casualties to Jaime, Cersei, Sansa, and Arya.   I would like for Jon to join that casualty list but I think one of either Jon or Arya will survive.  Arya is evil and the one more likely to die than Jon.  Though Jon's death would have more of an impact. 

Edited by Mon ami

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On 25/08/2017 at 9:56 PM, falcotron said:

It isn't quite that bad. For example, there's 81 years between the Faith Militant and the Dance, 61 years between the Dance and the First Blackfyre Rebellion, 46 years between the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion and Robert's Rebellion. Those are pretty long stretches without civil wars.

And it's not as if there was peace before Aegon came. The Hoare conquest of the Riverlands, for example, may be a war between two separate kingdoms rather than a civil war, but that doesn't mean it was any nicer to be a part of.

Anyway, even the in-universe Maesters don't feel the need to call him either perfect or villainous; they say he was an enigma who brought much good and much bad with his conquest. That sounds like a fair description to me. I don't know why so many fans think they need to believe North Korean-style propaganda for or against every character.

The Targaryens warred with the three daughters and launched a conquest of the stepstones between the Faith Militant and the Dance. There was also the conquest of Dorne after the dance and before the first blackfyre rebellion and the war of the nine penny kings after the fourth blackfyre rebellion and before Robert's Rebellion. So not that much peace.

I agree though that there was still alot of fighting before Aegon, just that the way the OP states #4 makes it sound as if Westeros after Aegon was a much better place. It wasn't.

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