Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

[Lothar]

10 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Can you seriously not understand this statement? Please, tell me if you don't. Because, my god, it is so glaringly obvious that trying to deny it at this point actually shows how intellectually challenged you are. I'm sorry for sounding mean, but that it is the truth. I want you to critically analyze my aforementioned statement, and understand that the reason Arya is suspicious is because Littlefinger tricked her into believing that he hid the letter under her orders. Why hide the letter, then, if there was nothing to worry about? Littlefinger knew this would cause Arya to turn against her sister. By denying Arya's suspicion, you're also denying Littlefinger's intelligence.

Before she even found the letter, the fact that Arya saw Littlefinger thank the maester for finding the letter, and that it was the only copy, roused her interest. Once she found the letter, read the contents, her initial curiosity turned to suspicion. "Why would she want to hide this," is what she would have been thinking. "There must be something going on with Sansa..."

First, you say something childish that sounds like you belong in a youtube comment section rather than here, and then you ask me a question I already answered showing that you didn't read my post all the way.  

I'll quote it again.

"So why would Sansa want the letter to be hidden if she indeed wanted it to be hidden?  Well, it's not a good letter, it's one she was forced to write by the Lannisters, she would probably be happy if it disappeared forever.   That's a more sensible believable conclusion for Arya to reach that the stupidity of "Sansa betrayed her family and helped them kill Ned."  

Littlefinger has not been smart since they passed the book material. 

[Kytheros]

11 minutes ago, Lothar said:

If they were 19 now and the last time I saw them was when they were 13, I wouldn't assume any childish thing they did when they were a child (Such as tattling about Arya having a sword as you brought up earlier) would be remotely applicable to how they are an adult.  Especially x 100 if their parents and siblings were murdered since I last talked to them.  

I can't imagine distrusting someone as an adult just because I distrusted them as a child.  

The "Don't tell Sansa" wasn't just because of Needle - "don't tell Sansa" was a thing long before that.

 

Maybe you don't automatically distrust everything they say, but neither do you give them complete trust right away either. Your relationship with them isn't a clean slate.

You wait and watch to see what they do, you test them, you find out if they're still the person you remember them as or if they've changed, and if they've changed, how they've changed. That's what Arya's doing with Sansa, and so far, at least, Sansa hasn't shown herself to have changed for the better, as far as Arya can tell.

[Stormourne]

22 minutes ago, Lothar said:

First, you say something childish that sounds like you belong in a youtube comment section rather than here, and then you ask me a question I already answered showing that you didn't read my post all the way.  

I'll quote it again.

"So why would Sansa want the letter to be hidden if she indeed wanted it to be hidden?  Well, it's not a good letter, it's one she was forced to write by the Lannisters, she would probably be happy if it disappeared forever.   That's a more sensible believable conclusion for Arya to reach that the stupidity of "Sansa betrayed her family and helped them kill Ned."  

Littlefinger has not been smart since they passed the book material. 

No, what you should have written is - "for me, it would have been the more sensible conclusion." Not for Arya, though. And that you would rather believe Littlefinger is not intelligent, that Arya should be immune to suspicion of others, is ridiculous. Ridiculous.

I'm getting frustrated because you refuse to accept an argument that is both plausible and written with evidence that I have provided.

That you can't see how Arya would find it suspicious that Littlefinger hid the letter shows me that you don't even care about the facts anymore. You'll defend your nonsensical position, even in the face of hard evidence - trying to show you how Arya could be, and is, suspicious of her sister is getting me nowhere.

Your immune to logical argumantion and critical analysis of the source material. You can cite the writing as bad, that Arya behaved in way that made little sense. But you cannot deny that her suspicion is based on what she feels to be true. And what she feels to be true is being manipulated by Littlefinger.

Let me dumb it down for you: Little finger hides letter, thanks the maester on behalf of the Lady of Winterfell, goes away. Arya looks on, curious, enters room, finds letter, reads content, grows suspicious.

Are you with me still?

Arya confronts Sansa, reads the letter out loud, at which point, Sansa defends that she was forced to write it.

No one is denying this. Sansa was forced to write the letter.

Now, Arya is suspicious of Sansa because she feels that the reason Sansa had Littlefinger hide the letter was so that the Northern Lords don't find out, so she does not lose their trust and influence.

We, the audience, know that this is not the case, that Sansa did not have Littlefinger hide the letter. But the crucial point is that Arya believes that Sansa tried to hide the evidence. Why would she do that? That is what Arya is suspicious about.

 

 

Could someone else please explain to Lothar how nonsensical his idea that Arya "should not feel suspicious" at all about Sansa is. I just outlined, in detail, why Arya is suspicious. Citing the content of the letter as being reason for her not to suspect Sansa makes little sense when you actually realise that Littlefinger - while making it look like Sansa wanted the letter hidden - hid the letter in his room. That key moment is what caused Arya's suspicion. Denying this fact at this point is hilariously stupid.

 

[Lothar]

33 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

The "Don't tell Sansa" wasn't just because of Needle - "don't tell Sansa" was a thing long before that.

 

Maybe you don't automatically distrust everything they say, but neither do you give them complete trust right away either. Your relationship with them isn't a clean slate.

You wait and watch to see what they do, you test them, you find out if they're still the person you remember them as or if they've changed, and if they've changed, how they've changed. That's what Arya's doing with Sansa, and so far, at least, Sansa hasn't shown herself to have changed for the better, as far as Arya can tell.

I would say it should be a clean slate for minor things that children do.  Like Arya brought up that she always wanted nice things.    It's like throwing it back in a woman's face that she wanted to grow up to be a princess when serious things are happening.  Nothing was bad enough in Season 1 that they hated each other.  She admitted to Ned that she didn't hate Sansa.

It shouldn't be a clean slate in that they have a bond of growing up in the same family.  In the same way that Sansa wanted badly to leave Winterfell, then thinks fondly of it later on, Arya's childhood Winterfell memories as a family should represent good memories now.  She has a bond of having both families and siblings getting murdered.  That should draw them closer together.  Thinking that Sansa is conspiring against one her siblings and her family is something that should be mind blowing, not easily accepted without a tremendous amount of proof.

Testing her would still be fine, but she could do that without interrogating her and threatening her and saying she helped her father get murdered.  

[Lothar]

49 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

No, what you should have written is - "for me, it would have been the more sensible conclusion." Not for Arya, though. And that you would rather believe Littlefinger is not intelligent, that Arya should be immune to suspicion of others, is ridiculous. Ridiculous.

I'm getting frustrated because you refuse to accept an argument that is both plausible and written with evidence that I have provided.

That you can't see how Arya would find it suspicious that Littlefinger hid the letter shows me that you don't even care about the facts anymore. You'll defend your nonsensical position, even in the face of hard evidence - trying to show you how Arya could be, and is, suspicious of her sister is getting me nowhere.

Your immune to logical argumantion and critical analysis of the source material. You can cite the writing as bad, that Arya behaved in way that made little sense. But you cannot deny that her suspicion is based on what she feels to be true. And what she feels to be true is being manipulated by Littlefinger.

Let me dumb it down for you: Little finger hides letter, thanks the maester on behalf of the Lady of Winterfell, goes away. Arya looks on, curious, enters room, finds letter, reads content, grows suspicious.

Are you with me still?

Arya confronts Sansa, reads the letter out loud, at which point, Sansa defends that she was forced to write it.

No one is denying this. Sansa was forced to write the letter.

Now, Arya is suspicious of Sansa because she feels that the reason Sansa had Littlefinger hide the letter was so that the Northern Lords don't find out, so she does not lose their trust and influence.

We, the audience, know that this is not the case, that Sansa did not have Littlefinger hide the letter. But the crucial point is that Arya believes that Sansa tried to hide the evidence. Why would she do that? That is what Arya is suspicious about.

 

 

Could someone else please explain to Lothar how nonsensical his idea that Arya "should not feel suspicious" at all about Sansa is. I just outlined, in detail, why Arya is suspicious. Citing the content of the letter as being reason for her not to suspect Sansa makes little sense when you actually realise that Littlefinger - while making it look like Sansa wanted the letter hidden - hid the letter in his room. That key moment is what caused Arya's suspicion. Denying this fact at this point is hilariously stupid.

 

You wrote all of these insulting condescending words that just made me smile and yet you didn't even address my little short post.  You're still asking why would she hide it and I already told you.  

I don't care if you're frustrated talking about TV shows on the internet.  Tell it to a therapist, not me.  You're not having any effect on me at all.  

[Stormourne]

37 minutes ago, Lothar said:

You wrote all of these insulting condescending words that just made me smile and yet you didn't even address my little short post.  You're still asking why would she hide it and I already told you.  

I don't care if you're frustrated talking about TV shows on the internet.  Tell it to a therapist, not me.  You're not having any effect on me at all.  

I did address your post. I never said Sansa hid the letter, I said Littlefinger hid the letter to make it look like Sansa asked him to hide the letter. I explained this, clearly. That you don't understand this is astonishing.

You might be smiling, but I rest easy knowing that you're living under a rock. You can think you're right all you want, but people reading these posts know the truth. They know that you've been fighting a losing battle, and are completely ignoring my argument about why Arya is suspicious of Sansa. 

And you haven't even tried to refute my argument. So what does that tell you? You actually think I was arguing that Sansa hid the letter? Looks like you didn't read my posts. Ironic, isn't it?

Just acknowledge the fact that Arya is suspicious of Sansa. This isn't Sansa's fault. This is Littlefinger's fault. He ocestrated this feud. 

And I'm just frustrated at the fact that someone could be this oblivious to the facts. Why don't you try to refute my argument? Show me how LF stashing the letter away would not raise concern in Arya? This is what I've been trying to show you. LF played Arya, caused her to suspect Sansa. And Sansa is not at fault, she is a victim. 

How do you still not get this? Please don't skim over this post. Read carefully. 

 

 

[Kytheros]

32 minutes ago, Lothar said:

I would say it should be a clean slate for minor things that children do.  Like Arya brought up that she always wanted nice things.    It's like throwing it back in a woman's face that she wanted to grow up to be a princess when serious things are happening.  Nothing was bad enough in Season 1 that they hated each other.  She admitted to Ned that she didn't hate Sansa.

It shouldn't be a clean slate in that they have a bond of growing up in the same family.  In the same way that Sansa wanted badly to leave Winterfell, then thinks fondly of it later on, Arya's childhood Winterfell memories as a family should represent good memories now.  She has a bond of having both families and siblings getting murdered.  That should draw them closer together.  Thinking that Sansa is conspiring against one her siblings and her family is something that should be mind blowing, not easily accepted without a tremendous amount of proof.

Testing her would still be fine, but she could do that without interrogating her and threatening her and saying she helped her father get murdered.  

Arya saying Sansa wanted and liked nice thing because they made Sansa feel better than everyone else isn't just throwing minor childish spats at Sansa, in the context of what Arya believes is going on.

Arya's memories of Sansa are what matter, more than Arya's general memories of Winterfell. Also relevant are Arya's memories of Jon, and Arya's memories of Jon and Sansa, and that specific relationship between Jon and Sansa.

Arya remembers Jon as her favorite sibling, and Sansa as her least favorite, and she remembers that Sansa and Jon weren't close, that they didn't get along at all - that Arya and Sansa were closer to each other than Jon and Sansa. That Sansa thought she was better than Jon.
 

Arya doesn't have definitive proof that Sansa's actively conspiring against Jon ... but Arya does have plenty of suspicions. Arya doesn't need to hate Sansa or to have definitive proof to be suspicious and act suspicious or to have doubts about Sansa's actions and motives.

 

Arya has circumstancial evidence fueling suspicions and doubts that her least favorite sibling (Sansa) may be organizing treachery against Arya's favorite sibling (Jon).

[Stormourne]

11 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Arya saying Sansa wanted and liked nice thing because they made Sansa feel better than everyone else isn't just throwing minor childish spats at Sansa, in the context of what Arya believes is going on.

Arya's memories of Sansa are what matter, more than Arya's general memories of Winterfell. Also relevant are Arya's memories of Jon, and Arya's memories of Jon and Sansa, and that specific relationship between Jon and Sansa.

Arya remembers Jon as her favorite sibling, and Sansa as her least favorite, and she remembers that Sansa and Jon weren't close, that they didn't get along at all - that Arya and Sansa were closer to each other than Jon and Sansa. That Sansa thought she was better than Jon.
 

Arya doesn't have definitive proof that Sansa's actively conspiring against Jon ... but Arya does have plenty of suspicions. Arya doesn't need to hate Sansa or to have definitive proof to be suspicious and act suspicious or to have doubts about Sansa's actions and motives.

 

Arya has circumstancial evidence fueling suspicions and doubts that her least favorite sibling (Sansa) may be organizing treachery against Arya's favorite sibling (Jon).

Don't even bother arguing with him. I tried, I seriously tried. I provided a logical argument, backed up my thesis with textual evidence, and he still laughed and brushed those facts away like I was the one with my head buried in the sand. :l Arya is suspicious of Sansa, not with any concrete evidence, but with what Littlefinger has plotted. 

[Kytheros]

1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Don't even bother arguing with him. I tried, I seriously tried. I provided a logical argument, backed up my thesis with textual evidence, and he still laughed and brushed those facts away like I was the one with my head buried in the sand. :l Arya is suspicious of Sansa, not with any concrete evidence, but with what Littlefinger has plotted. 

Yeah, if Lothar continues to not debate Arya's actions/reactions and the possibility of some of them being overreactions - which certainly has plenty of grounds for discussion, but instead continues to deny the existence of causation for Arya's behavior ... I'm not sure that there's much point to continuing the discussion.

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Yeah, if Lothar continues to not debate Arya's actions/reactions and the possibility of some of them being overreactions - which certainly has plenty of grounds for discussion, but instead continues to deny the existence of causation for Arya's behavior ... I'm not sure that there's much point to continuing the discussion.

Either way, we'll learn the truth of the matter tomorrow. I'm so excited for the episode! I think Littlefinger is done for.

I was just in another thread, and people were debating why Jon did not send a raven to Winterfell about his mission north of the Wall. People brought up some good points, including one where Littlefinger could have intercepted the ravens, in order to cause discord among the lords, and to have Sansa worried or critical about Jon's behavior. Perhaps Arya finds these 'stolen letters from Jon' and realizes that Littlefinger is really dangerous, and needs to be dealt with.

[Pandean]

I really feel like the easiest way to view the situation is this:

 

Arya has reasons to act the way she's acting. It's not just out of the blue. She's a young girl with enough trauma to spend 11 lifetimes in therapy and it's no wonder she suspects the worst of people. She saw Sansa last when she was 10 and Sansa was 13. They did not get along. So, she has legit reasons to act the way she's acting.

Is it right? Is it justified? Is it good? No. No matter the reasons, it's not right to do that type of thing and it's not justified. It's not a good way to behave.

But that doesn't mean that I can't see why she is behaving that way. The reasons don't excuse the behavior. But there are still reasons. She's just not like "imma just be a dick to my sister lolz"

 

Either way, we'll get to see the outcome of the situation quite soon, won't we?

[Pandean]

5 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Either way, we'll learn the truth of the matter tomorrow. I'm so excited for the episode! I think Littlefinger is done for.

I was just in another thread, and people were debating why Jon did not send a raven to Winterfell about his mission north of the Wall. People brought up some good points, including one where Littlefinger could have intercepted the ravens, in order to cause discord among the lords, and to have Sansa worried or critical about Jon's behavior. Perhaps Arya finds these 'stolen letters from Jon' and realizes that Littlefinger is really dangerous, and needs to be dealt with.

That would be interesting for LF to do. I think either way LF is not going to last the end of this season. 

Sansa knows he's bad news. Arya knows he's bad news. Bran knows he's bad news. I think at this point everyone knows LF is bad news. He just won't go away. Like one of those really long, greedy leeches that go between your toes and you need to be power sprayed for 5 minutes to get them off.

I may or may not speak from experience with the leeches thing. 

[Kytheros]

3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Either way, we'll learn the truth of the matter tomorrow. I'm so excited for the episode! I think Littlefinger is done for.

I was just in another thread, and people were debating why Jon did not send a raven to Winterfell about his mission north of the Wall. People brought up some good points, including one where Littlefinger could have intercepted the ravens, in order to cause discord among the lords, and to have Sansa worried or critical about Jon's behavior. Perhaps Arya finds these 'stolen letters from Jon' and realizes that Littlefinger is really dangerous, and needs to be dealt with.

Ooh, I like that the theory that Littlefinger's intercepting raven messages. We already know he's got hooks into the Maester at Winterfell.

Only problem is, it might be expected that some reply would be needed, even if its only a status update.

 

There's really no explanation for why Jon wouldn't have sent word to Winterfell - "We've got a deal on mining dragonglass - still working on getting more", if nothing else.

[Stormourne]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I really feel like the easiest way to view the situation is this:

 

Arya has reasons to act the way she's acting. It's not just out of the blue. She's a young girl with enough trauma to spend 11 lifetimes in therapy and it's no wonder she suspects the worst of people. She saw Sansa last when she was 10 and Sansa was 13. They did not get along. So, she has legit reasons to act the way she's acting.

Is it right? Is it justified? Is it good? No. No matter the reasons, it's not right to do that type of thing and it's not justified. It's not a good way to behave.

But that doesn't mean that I can't see why she is behaving that way. The reasons don't excuse the behavior. But there are still reasons. She's just not like "imma just be a dick to my sister lolz"

 

Either way, we'll get to see the outcome of the situation quite soon, won't we?

I totally agree. Although Arya feels justified, that does mean that her actions are justified. Certainly not in the eyes of Sansa, who should not have to defend her self in that way. I can understand why Arya is going what she's doing. Her traumatized heart in in the right place, but all she's known for the last few years is violence, and more violence. It is unsurprising that she would react to a potential and highly unlikely betrayal by her sister with violence (although she does not physically harm Sansa, the threat is clear).

And we shall see the outcome In less than a day, me thinks.

[Stormourne]

7 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Ooh, I like that the theory that Littlefinger's intercepting raven messages. We already know he's got hooks into the Maester at Winterfell.

Only problem is, it might be expected that some reply would be needed, even if its only a status update.

 

There's really no explanation for why Jon wouldn't have sent word to Winterfell - "We've got a deal on mining dragonglass - still working on getting more", if nothing else.

If I remember correctly, Sansa said that she has not heard from him in weeks. Perhaps he already sent word about the dragon glass, just not after that good news. The writers need to clarify this. And Littlefinger intercepting raven messages is good place to start. With regards to the trip north, I don't think Jon would even expect a reply since he would have left Dragonstone on the same day he wrote a message to Sansa.

And if Littlefinger read the message, knew that Jon could die in the north. He might keep that to himself, to keep the northern lords confused about why Jon hasn't returned yet. I think we're onto an original theory here.

[Kytheros]

1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

If I remember correctly, Sansa said that she has not heard from him in weeks. Perhaps he already sent word about the dragon glass, just not after that good news. The writers need to clarify this. And Littlefinger intercepting raven messages is good place to start. With regards to the trip north, I don't think Jon would even expect a reply  since he would have left Dragonstone on the same day he wrote a message to Sansa.

And if Littlefinger read the message, new that Jon could die in the north. He might keep that to himself, to keep the northern lords confused about why Jon hasn't returned yet. I think we're onto an original theory here.

As far as the trip north - presumably any reply to Jon would've been sent to his next destination - Eastwatch, not to Dragonstone.

Also, the Ravens (some of them) have access to the teleportation grid this season.

 

I think you're right about this being an original theory.

Sadly, I very much doubt that we'll learn more about what, if any, communications Jon sent to Winterfell from Dragonstone, much less that Littlefinger was intercepting them.

[Pandean]

17 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I totally agree. Although Arya feels justified, that does mean that her actions are justified. Certainly not in the eyes of Sansa, who should not have to defend her self in that way. I can understand why Arya is going what she's doing. Her traumatized heart in in the right place, but all she's known for the last few years is violence, and more violence. It is unsurprising that she would react to a potential and highly unlikely betrayal by her sister with violence (although she does not physically harm Sansa, the threat is clear).

And we shall see the outcome In less than a day, me thinks.

Exactly. I feel bad for both her and Sansa. Sansa doesn't deserve the way she's being treated and Arya's been through a lot as well to make her the way she is. (Same, also, with Sansa, Bran, etc.).

 

And yep. Less than a day! Maybe 18 hours?

 

 

[Kytheros]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Exactly. I feel bad for both her and Sansa. Sansa doesn't deserve the way she's being treated and Arya's been through a lot as well to make her the way she is. (Same, also, with Sansa, Bran, etc.).

 

And yep. Less than a day! Maybe 18 hours?

 

 

16.75 hours, I think. Give or take a few minutes.

[Stormourne]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Exactly. I feel bad for both her and Sansa. Sansa doesn't deserve the way she's being treated and Arya's been through a lot as well to make her the way she is. (Same, also, with Sansa, Bran, etc.).

 

And yep. Less than a day! Maybe 18 hours?

 

 

Hey, what do you think about the idea that Littlefinger could have intercepted the ravens Jon could have sent after he decided to go north of the Wall? I assume Jon communicated with Sansa about the dragon-glass, since she stated that it had been weeks since she last heard from him. I would imagine LF reading the letter, smirking, thinking that there was a real chance for Jon to die. And perhaps him stashing the letter away was to cause tension in Winterfell, especially among the Northern Lords who are already stating how they should have choose Sansa to rule, etc. I think this would be a nice way for the writers to explain why there was no ravens after the dragon-glass news. Although we did not see Sansa receive any ravens from Jon, her earlier comment about her not hearing from him in weeks suggests that they were keeping in contact.

This would be a nice twist, and one that could work.

[Stormourne]

2 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

16.75 hours, I think. Give or take a few minutes.

I live in Australia, and I have university on that day :/ I have to wait until I get home to watch. Pray for me, lol.