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Stormourne

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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7 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Yes, when she got stabbed in Braavos, running through the streets and fighting at 100%, and also everything was set up for Waif to take Arya's identity, and if it happened, it's the best kept secret D&D ever had.  Perhaps the only secret.  Nope, we got set up for a massive plot twist, and what we got was a B grade kung fu movie scene.

Honestly, I can't really remember the specifics of that ordeal. I seem to recall her being stabbed in the belly multiple times, and falling into the water, and making it back to the actress' place. Getting help from her. Do she give her an elixir of some kind? Without knowing the specifics - sequence of events, what healing aid, time of healing, etc. - I can't really comment. You may be right, if she got gut-stabbed and was then running and fighting that is some sketchy writing.

I can say that I don't buy the "Waif is Arya" theory at all; and personally if it turned out true would cite that as terrible writing; reason being leading me to invest time in a central character only to leave her arc unresolved, with the added insult of an offscreen death. 

But I would propose "B grade kung fu scene" falls into subjective value claim. Bear in mind I'm not for a second saying, nobody should claim not to like such and such a scene, or, whatever: but I'm differentiating between "do not like" and "bad writing" as two completely different concepts. There are probably more people in the world that dislike GoT than people that like it: that has no bearing on the actual state of writing.

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4 minutes ago, John Meta said:

I can say that I don't buy the "Waif is Arya" theory at all; and personally if it turned out true would cite that as terrible writing; reason being leading me to invest time in a central character only to leave her arc unresolved,

Have you met Eddard Stark?

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14 minutes ago, John Meta said:

Honestly, I can't really remember the specifics of that ordeal. I seem to recall her being stabbed in the belly multiple times, and falling into the water, and making it back to the actress' place. Getting help from her. Do she give her an elixir of some kind? Without knowing the specifics - sequence of events, what healing aid, time of healing, etc. - I can't really comment. You may be right, if she got gut-stabbed and was then running and fighting that is some sketchy writing.

Normally an actress can't really patch up multiple stab (and twisted) wounds to the gut that was exposed to dirty water, ran around with, and whatnot with simple elixir or even sewing it back up.

 

Back in the day, a gut wound was a sure sign of death for the inflicted.

 

Which is why I wonder why they went with a gut wound instead of something at least a little more plausible for Arya to survive.

AFAIK, complex surgery has yet to be invented in Braavos or Westeros.

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5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Normally an actress can't really patch up multiple stab (and twisted) wounds to the gut that was exposed to dirty water, ran around with, and whatnot with simple elixir or even sewing it back up.

 

Back in the day, a gut wound was a sure sign of death for the inflicted.

 

Which is why I wonder why they went with a gut wound instead of something at least a little more plausible for Arya to survive.

AFAIK, complex surgery has yet to be invented in Braavos or Westeros.

I just assumed the stab wounds missed all her vital organs - it is possible; if you've ever watched those ER shows, people have survived some crazy shit. And that she just needed to stop the bleeding for the healing to begin. Either way, this was a prime example of a plausible impossibility. The scene was enjoyable, and that was satisfying enough. Nit picking at this point would not really solve anything. I'm just glad she survived :)

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10 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Have you met Eddard Stark?

 

Okay I didn't really want to go there, but you're calling it out. Honestly, and this is just my own opinion for now (maybe others can provide something to make me think otherwise) - but I'm not really sure about Martin's writing in that regard. First have to acknowledge that the writing of book events on the show will generally follow the writing from Martin's books in regards to major events like Ned's death, the Red Wedding, Jon stabbed by the Watch. The show itself, I can't cite the writers for bad writing if they are faithfully following what, I think may be bad writing by Martin. Wait! Hold on! Hear me out here.

When I watched the show, and those events occurred, I seriously asked, who is writing this nonsense? And the answer would not be, the show writers; but George Martin. The reason I say, I'm not sure this is good writing is precisely because he is having me invest so much time in characters, only to kill them off with no arc completion, no real relevance of their own to the overall plot of the story. It's like a man telling me a story about a character, and half way through the story, "and then he is suddenly killed; the end" I would respond, "Your story is a bad story; why did I just sit here for days on end listening to a story with no completion of character arc? You have wasted me time."

I should not even be following Rob Stark or Catlyn Stark at all. They should be minor characters who are killed offstory, and I only see the impact it has on the characters who do not die. Such as Jon Snow getting a raven "father beheaded for treason" "Brother killed, mother killed" etc. and I learn what impact it has on the main characters. So, that's why I say what I say about Arya.

But that is my feeling on that. Ned is somewhat more understandable since the main characters (his children) were actually in the scenario when it occurred. But when the Red Wedding occurred? Honestly, my reaction was, "Thanks for wasting 40 hours of my life following two characters for no reason" and when Jon Snow was stabbed, I was one of the people that actually said "I'm done. I'm not wasting my time following stories that have no purpose" BUT then I thought "Wait. There's no way you write a character called 'Jon Snow' who lives at 'Castle Black' with a white wolf called 'Ghost' and just kill him. He'll be back. So I continued.

BUT I will still claim killing Arya offscreen would be terrible writing, and in fact that the Red Wedding was not what I would call "good writing" since all it did was leave main characters with an unresolved arc that I had invested in for many many many hours. For no reason. But that is on Martin, not the show writers.

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But demise is the completion of their arc.  GRRM said he always wanted to write a story where the hero dies very early in it, like in real life.  We aren't given an opportunity to complete our arc when we die.  Death is the end of our arc.  Unless we're John.  Or Thoros.  Or the Mountain.

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24 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Have you met Eddard Stark?

That's not fair, that's just the first act of the story. It's not like he'd do that with Ned's son who spent three books growing and succeeding and learning from his mistakes, or introduce a PoV character like Quentyn Martell whose entire story is his failure to learn or accomplish anything, right? Next you'll be suggesting that Stannis won't achieve his destiny to sit the Iron Throne.

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5 minutes ago, John Meta said:

 

Okay I didn't really want to go there, but you're calling it out. Honestly, and this is just my own opinion for now (maybe others can provide something to make me think otherwise) - but I'm not really sure about Martin's writing in that regard. First have to acknowledge that the writing of book events on the show will generally follow the writing from Martin's books in regards to major events like Ned's death, the Red Wedding, Jon stabbed by the Watch. The show itself, I can't cite the writers for bad writing if they are faithfully following what, I think may be bad writing by Martin. Wait! Hold on! Hear me out here.

When I watched the show, and those events occurred, I seriously asked, who is writing this nonsense? And the answer would not be, the show writers; but George Martin. The reason I say, I'm not sure this is good writing is precisely because he is having me invest so much time in characters, only to kill them off with no arc completion, no real relevance of their own to the overall plot of the story. It's like a man telling me a story about a character, and half way through the story, "and then he is suddenly killed; the end" I would respond, "Your story is a bad story; why did I just sit here for days on end listening to a story with no completion of character arc? You have wasted me time."

I should not even be following Rob Stark or Catlyn Stark at all. They should be minor characters who are killed offstory, and I only see the impact it has on the characters who do not die. Such as Jon Snow getting a raven "father beheaded for treason" "Brother killed, mother killed" etc. and I learn what impact it has on the main characters. bSo, that's why I say what I say about Arya.

But that is my feeling on that. Ned is somewhat more understandable since the main characters (his children) were actually in the scenario when it occurred. But when the Red Wedding occurred? Honestly, my reaction was, "Thanks for wasting 40 hours of my life following two characters for no reason" and when Jon Snow was stabbed, I was one of the people that actually said "I'm done. I'm not wasting my time following stories that have no purpose" BUT then I thought "Wait. There's no way you write a character called 'Jon Snow' who lives at 'Castle Black' with a white wolf called 'Ghost' and just kill him. He'll be back. So I continued.

BUT I will still claim killing Arya offscreen would be terrible writing, and in fact that the Red Wedding was not what I would call "good writing" since all it did was leave main characters with an unresolved arc that I had invested in for many many many hours. For no reason. But that is on Martin, not the show writers.

Your definition of bad writing is so flawed it's astonishing. That you think characters were murdered for no reason, e.g. Red Wedding, Ned Stark, etc., is hilarious. You are wrong, and your subjective opinion is wrong. These events were handled professionally, they made sense in the context of the show and novels. If you can't understand that. Then why bother continuing to watch? This show is not for you since you can't obviously put one and two together. Do you even know why Robb Stark was betrayed? Why Jon was betrayed? These are not examples of bad writing, quite the opposite. To me, it seems like your averse to characters you like dying. And when they die, you shout bad writing and stomp your feet. Please, reevaluate your opinion on the matter. It simply is not correct, no matter how strongly you feel about it.

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26 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Normally an actress can't really patch up multiple stab (and twisted) wounds to the gut that was exposed to dirty water, ran around with, and whatnot with simple elixir or even sewing it back up.

 

Back in the day, a gut wound was a sure sign of death for the inflicted.

 

Which is why I wonder why they went with a gut wound instead of something at least a little more plausible for Arya to survive.

AFAIK, complex surgery has yet to be invented in Braavos or Westeros.

Gut wounds are bad, sure; but this is a fantasy setting. People are being raised from the dead and living through immolation in fire. I don't know how long Arya was healing, what the actress could have done, what the medicine could do. And honestly, it's not something I would call 'bad writing' - let me be clear that what I consider 'bad writing' are unfinished arcs, improper characterizations, inconsistent information, misleading narratives or plot contrivances. There may be this in the books and/or series (honeslty I haven't read the books because I refuse to read a series of this length until it's finished - I don't know if you're familiar with a series called the Wheel of Time? I avoided reading that series for the same reason, and it turns out I'm glad I did. 

But again, I can't really right off recall the Braavos events. You may be right, I'd need to watch it again. But if what happens is she gets stabbed and is later healed; I'm not seeing that as 'bad writing' especially if the actress is feeding her some healing elixir in a fantasy setting.

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26 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I just assumed the stab wounds missed all her vital organs - it is possible; if you've ever watched those ER shows, people have survived some crazy shit. And that she just needed to stop the bleeding for the healing to begin. Either way, this was a prime example of a plausible impossibility. The scene was enjoyable, and that was satisfying enough. Nit picking at this point would not really solve anything. I'm just glad she survived :)

Medically if you're stabbed in the gut, you're at least gonna hit close to your intestines. I've watched ER shows---the main difference is, y'know, modern medicine. Back in the time period GoT was slightly based on, a gut wound meant death. In general, a lot of your vital organs are stuffed in there so you'll most likely hit something. Surgery and anti-biotics don't exist. Not to mention that the fall in the dirty water would've gotten a big infection and running around afterward....

I'm not nitpicking. Someone mentioned the whole Waif fight sequence and whatnot about Arya's injuries and I responded. It was an good sequence (I enjoyed it but the Waif's characterization in the show bugs me so much) and I feel like if they had only changed the stab to be somewhere else, it would've made more sense.

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23 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

But demise is the completion of their arc.  GRRM said he always wanted to write a story where the hero dies very early in it, like in real life.  We aren't given an opportunity to complete our arc when we die.  Death is the end of our arc.  Unless we're John.  Or Thoros.  Or the Mountain.

I'm sure he had his reasons for writing the way he did/does. But there's a reason stories have this 'trope' of following the characters who survive and, not characters who do not survive. When you're asking me to invest time in a character, I expect it to have a payoff of some kind. It's a give-take relationship. A story arc that ends half way through, providing no catharsis is not, to me, good writing. It is a waste of my time to invest in something that doesn't pay dividends of some sort. 

But none of this changes that I would cite Arya - a central character - being killed offscreen without resolution, as bad writing.

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4 minutes ago, John Meta said:

Gut wounds are bad, sure; but this is a fantasy setting. People are being raised from the dead and living through immolation in fire. I don't know how long Arya was healing, what the actress could have done, what the medicine could do. And honestly, it's not something I would call 'bad writing' - let me be clear that what I consider 'bad writing' are unfinished arcs, improper characterizations, inconsistent information, misleading narratives or plot contrivances. There may be this in the books and/or series (honeslty I haven't read the books because I refuse to read a series of this length until it's finished - I don't know if you're familiar with a series called the Wheel of Time? I avoided reading that series for the same reason, and it turns out I'm glad I did. 

But again, I can't really right off recall the Braavos events. You may be right, I'd need to watch it again. But if what happens is she gets stabbed and is later healed; I'm not seeing that as 'bad writing' especially if the actress is feeding her some healing elixir in a fantasy setting.

I mean, GoT is fantasy but part of the whole appeal is there is a separation between the magical and mundane events.

I.E. there is no special elixir that everyday people or even maesters, etc. use. The magic of the world is confined. 

I wouldn't say 'bad writing' more than unnecessary plot armor that wasn't needed if they just had Arya move a bit by luck and end up getting stabbed somewhere else that could be dangerous but not as fatal.

This particular scene is not in the books as I believe we have yet to go to a part where Arya leaves the HOBAW. And yeah, I know about the WoT series. Funny story, the guy who writes the Kingkiller Chronicles, etc. vacations in my town and decided to cross the street without looking and in the middle of the road vs a crosswalk and me and my friend almost ran him over. Oops.

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52 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Have you met Eddard Stark?

His arc was pretty finished LF. He'd solved the mystery of the incest, he's seen the rule of his friend he put on the throne come to the end, reaffirmed his earlier decisions about love and innocent lives being more important than 'honour' and he was literally on the brink of handing the realm to someone else entirely and returning home.There was nothing left for Ned to do. It was pretty clear that him confronting Cersei and Joffrey was the climax of his plot.

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29 minutes ago, falcotron said:

That's not fair, that's just the first act of the story. It's not like he'd do that with Ned's son who spent three books growing and succeeding and learning from his mistakes, or introduce a PoV character like Quentyn Martell whose entire story is his failure to learn or accomplish anything, right? Next you'll be suggesting that Stannis won't achieve his destiny to sit the Iron Throne.

This is the best post, omg.

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15 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Your definition of bad writing is so flawed it's astonishing. That you think characters were murdered for no reason, e.g. Red Wedding, Ned Stark, etc., is hilarious. You are wrong, and your subjective opinion is wrong. These events were handled professionally, they made sense in the context of the show and novels. If you can't understand that. Then why bother continuing to watch? This show is not for you since you can't obviously put one and two together. Do you even know why Robb Stark was betrayed? Why Jon was betrayed? These are not examples of bad writing, quite the opposite. To me, it seems like your averse to characters you like dying. And when they die, you shout bad writing and stomp your feet. Please, reevaluate your opinion on the matter. It simply is not correct, no matter how strongly you feel about it.

I'm not saying the characters were murdered for no reason. I am saying that I shouldn't be investing in a story arc that goes nowhere. These shouldn't be main characters that I am following until suddenly they're not main characters anymore, and their arc is left unresolved. Stories should follow the characters that live and have their arc completed. Set up to pay off. I should not be investing a LOT of time in a story arc that goes nowhere. 

The reason I continue to watch is because I'm confident the Red Wedding was the last time I'll have to endure an investment that doesn't have a payoff.

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5 minutes ago, John Meta said:

I don't know if you're familiar with a series called the Wheel of Time? I avoided reading that series for the same reason, and it turns out I'm glad I did. 

I thought the Wheel of Time series was finished a few years ago, and, even though the last book was written by another guy, he was working from thousands of pages of notes Robert Jordan wrote up in case he died, and a lot of people were happy with it, except for something about the publishers holding back the e-book until they got enough sales of the hardback, or something like that?

(Personally, I stopped reading that series pretty early—it's just not my thing—but I remember people talking about it a lot at the time.)

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2 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

His arc was pretty finished LF. He'd solved the mystery of the incest, he's seen the rule of his friend he put on the throne come to the end, reaffirmed his earlier decisions about love and innocent lives being more important than 'honour' and he was literally on the brink of handing the realm to someone else entirely and returning home.There was nothing left for Ned to do. It was pretty clear that him confronting Cersei and Joffrey was the climax of his plot.

But his arc was designed by the writer, the same writer that killed him off.  If GRRM feels that Arya's arc ends at Braavos and Waif as Arya's arc begins, then that's what it is.  Arya's arc, then, was to go to Braavos, fill in the Waif with enough of her history to portray her, and fail and die.

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5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I thought the Wheel of Time series was finished a few years ago, and, even though the last book was written by another guy, he was working from thousands of pages of notes Robert Jordan wrote up in case he died, and a lot of people were happy with it, except for something about the publishers holding back the e-book until they got enough sales of the hardback, or something like that?

(Personally, I stopped reading that series pretty early—it's just not my thing—but I remember people talking about it a lot at the time.)

You're correct, I believe.

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2 minutes ago, John Meta said:

I will say that, if Jon Snow would've actually died and not come back; I would definitely have stopped watching the series at that point.

There was no chance that Jon Snow would have stayed dead, though. Ned Stark served his purpose. His arc ended on the executioner's blade. His death caused the North to declare independence and name Robb King. The whole Stark plot started from that injustice. So, thematically, Ned Stark's death was necessary. 

The Red Wedding was also necessary. Robb should not have slighted the Frey's and his men paid for it. His arc ended with a dagger in the heart, and that propelled Arya's arc. These events were necessary. These deaths had meaning. I know you're diapointed that they died. But their arcs ended the moment they died. There is a genuine sense of realism in the early seasons.

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