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Dawn of Fyre

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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On August 24, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Kytheros said:

Arya and Sansa have never gotten along. They've never been close - Sansa was/is Arya's least favorite sibling, and Arya was/is Sansa's second least favorite sibling (after Jon). They always had very different interests.

Jon and Arya even had their "don't tell Sansa" thing, way back when. Deliberately not telling Sansa things because they knew she'd either use it against them and/or tattle on them to get them in trouble - that's indicative of a lack of trust, at least in part.

Jon's was/is Arya's favorite sibling. Jon was/is Sansa's least favorite sibling. She sees people trashing Jon in favor of Sansa, and Sansa not doing or saying anything to stop them doing that. If Arya had to pick siding with Sansa or siding with Jon, she'd side with Jon every time.

 

Arya has plenty of reasons to be mistrustful/suspicious of Sansa/Sansa's motives in the present. Nothing proving anything, but certainly enough to question.

She does not.  There's a big problem with the writers writing Sansa and Arya like they're still children.  Especially after everything they've been through.  If anything, they should be even more grown up now.  Arya is an idiot for assuming that Sansa would be the same way Sansa was 6 years ago when she was a child.  That anyone defending the scene this episode has to go back and look at Sansa's behavior when she was a child is funny.  

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13 minutes ago, Lothar said:

She does not.  There's a big problem with the writers writing Sansa and Arya like they're still children.  Especially after everything they've been through.  If anything, they should be even more grown up now.  Arya is an idiot for assuming that Sansa would be the same way Sansa was 6 years ago when she was a child.  That anyone defending the scene this episode has to go back and look at Sansa's behavior when she was a child is funny.  

So, you think it would be more plausible for Arya not to be suspicious of Sansa? Should Arya not be suspicious of Littlefinger too, and not question  why he seems to be so tight with Sansa? Should she not question the letter? Remember that it is not letter itself that got Arya so aggressive, it was the fact that she thought Sansa was having Littlefinger destroy evidence of her so-called "betrayel." Had she found the letter another way, she would have been more willing to except Sansa's point of view. 

I do agree that their scenes together could have been written better. But that should not mean that the suspicion is any less real.

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1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

So, you think it would be more plausible for Arya not to be suspicious of Sansa? Should Arya not be suspicious of Littlefinger too, and not question  why he seems to be so tight with Sansa? Should she not question the letter? Remember that it is not letter itself that got Arya so aggressive, it was the fact that she thought Sansa was having Littlefinger destroy evidence of her so-called "betrayel." Had she found the letter another way, she would have been more willing to except Sansa's point of view. 

I do agree that their scenes together could have been written better. But that should not mean that the suspicion is any less real.

Based on the character they built for Arya, her being suspicious of Sansa is totally reasonable.  Her tormenting Sansa is completely believable.

From Arya's perspective, she is justified in her mind to be tormenting and messing with Sansa.

From the viewer's perspective (who has far more information than Arya).......Arya is just wrong.

 

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2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

So, you think it would be more plausible for Arya not to be suspicious of Sansa? Should Arya not be suspicious of Littlefinger too, and not question  why he seems to be so tight with Sansa? Should she not question the letter? Remember that it is not letter itself that got Arya so aggressive, it was the fact that she thought Sansa was having Littlefinger destroy evidence of her so-called "betrayel." Had she found the letter another way, she would have been more willing to except Sansa's point of view. 

I do agree that their scenes together could have been written better. But that should not mean that the suspicion is any less real.

She should have read the letter and thought the same thing as when the Starks got the letter in Season 1 "Oh hey, this is from when Sansa was a prisoner.  She must have been doing what they told her so father and her wouldn't get murdered."  If not and Arya thought it seemed weird, then she should have simply asked Sansa about it.  Not insinuate that she wanted Ned dead or say she betrayed her family or threaten her.  There's just no defending her.  These are terrible things to claim and do without thinking or asking.

Then it gets even worse when she compares her to Lyanna Mormont.  What the hell does Arya think Lyanna would have done in the same situation?  Get herself killed?  Is Arya saying that Sansa should have committed suicide?  I don't know what else she could be saying but that.  How could any viewer still have the tiniest respect for Arya if that's the case?  

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2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

So, you think it would be more plausible for Arya not to be suspicious of Sansa? Should Arya not be suspicious of Littlefinger too, and not question  why he seems to be so tight with Sansa? Should she not question the letter? Remember that it is not letter itself that got Arya so aggressive, it was the fact that she thought Sansa was having Littlefinger destroy evidence of her so-called "betrayel." Had she found the letter another way, she would have been more willing to except Sansa's point of view. 

I do agree that their scenes together could have been written better. But that should not mean that the suspicion is any less real.

If she is suspicious of LF and basing this on Sansa 6 years ago she should be attributing it to Sansa's naivete and ignorance and trying to warn her/protect her against his influence rather than taking it out on Sansa.

But yes, she should absolutely be smart and mature enough to realise that the letter does not constitute any betrayal, that people might make mistakes but that they can change and at the very least at least attempt to obtain some solid evidence before jumping to the worst conclusion. Her suspicions are entirely based on what Sansa allegedly did 6 years ago rather than anything she's doing right now.

They have not written her as cruel or irrational before. 

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12 minutes ago, Lothar said:

She should have read the letter and thought the same thing as when the Starks got the letter in Season 1 "Oh hey, this is from when Sansa was a prisoner.  She must have been doing what they told her so father and her wouldn't get murdered." 

“Sansa's writing but the Queen's words”. Arya is supposed to be smart enough to see this.

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1 minute ago, Nowy Tends said:

“Sansa's writing but the Queen's words”. Arya is supposed to be smart enough to see this.

I believe she is....and does.....

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2 hours ago, Lothar said:

She does not.  There's a big problem with the writers writing Sansa and Arya like they're still children.  Especially after everything they've been through.  If anything, they should be even more grown up now.  Arya is an idiot for assuming that Sansa would be the same way Sansa was 6 years ago when she was a child.  That anyone defending the scene this episode has to go back and look at Sansa's behavior when she was a child is funny.  

No, Arya absolutely does have reasons to be suspicious, mistrustful, or dubious about Sansa and her position regarding Jon, and Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger. You can argue about how she should address those suspicions, but if you're denying that Arya has grounds for being dubious about Sansa, I'm not sure how much value there is in discussing the matter further.

 

But their relationship with one another hasn't progressed since they were children. The Sansa Arya knows is the Sansa of her childhood - the Sansa she never got along with.  And vice versa. They don't know what the other's gone through - they don't really know each other anymore, all they know is who the other used to be.

Their past history and past issues with each other affect how they view and interact with each other now.

 

Remember, the last time Arya and Sansa were together was back in the middle of Season 1. That's the version of each other that they know and remember.

 

 

It's sort of similar to the trap Catelyn fell into regarding Littlefinger way back then - she remembered him as a trusted friend, and didn't realize how much he'd changed.

 

 

Hypothetically, you've known someone for years and haven't gotten along with them, you've never trusted them all that much. You get separated, and you haven't seen them for, five or six years. Do you really believe that you're not going to resume your relationship with them with a measure of innate distrust?

 

 

 

Understand, I'm not saying I trust Dan&Dave to do a good job with any of this, or that they've done a particularly good job so far ... just that there are grounds for Arya to have doubts about Sansa, and for their relationship to be a difficult one.

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32 minutes ago, Lothar said:

She should have read the letter and thought the same thing as when the Starks got the letter in Season 1 "Oh hey, this is from when Sansa was a prisoner.  She must have been doing what they told her so father and her wouldn't get murdered."  If not and Arya thought it seemed weird, then she should have simply asked Sansa about it.  Not insinuate that she wanted Ned dead or say she betrayed her family or threaten her.  There's just no defending her.  These are terrible things to claim and do without thinking or asking.

Then it gets even worse when she compares her to Lyanna Mormont.  What the hell does Arya think Lyanna would have done in the same situation?  Get herself killed?  Is Arya saying that Sansa should have committed suicide?  I don't know what else she could be saying but that.  How could any viewer still have the tiniest respect for Arya if that's the case?  

No she was not saying Sansa should have killed herself. I don't know how you possibly could have interpreted it to even mean that.

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4 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

No she was not saying Sansa should have killed herself. I don't know how you possibly could have interpreted it to even mean that.

She actually was inferring that.

I believe Arya said she would never betray her family.  Right after asking Sansa if they put her in a rack or put a knife to her throat.

I will have to rewatch but I think Arya actually says that "I'd die before betraying my family." ....something very close to that.  Maybe I'm remembering it wrong though.

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13 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

No she was not saying Sansa should have killed herself. I don't know how you possibly could have interpreted it to even mean that.

That is exactly what she said.

"I would have let them kill me before I betrayed my family."

She is saying it would have been better if Sansa let them kill her than what she did.  There's no other way to take it.  How do you take it?

Sansa doing anything other than what she was told would have been suicide.  Arya is upset that Sansa did what was told.  That leaves the only other suicide option.

"They wouldn't think much of Lady Sansa if they knew how she did Cersei's bidding. What would little Lyanna Mormont say? She's younger than you were when you wrote this."

Can anyone defending Arya say what she meant by this?  What would Lyanna have done?  

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16 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

She actually was inferring that.

I believe Arya said she would never betray her family.  Right after asking Sansa if they put her in a rack or put a knife to her throat.

I will have to rewatch but I think Arya actually says that "I'd die before betraying my family." ....something very close to that.  Maybe I'm remembering it wrong though.

Saying you would die before betraying your family is VERY different to telling someone to kill themself.

Arya was NOT telling Sansa to kill herself. She wouldn't do that.

What Arya was saying is she, Arya, would willingly have sacrificed her life (as In, letting their enemies kill her - as Ned did), rather than betray her family. Arya expected the same from Sansa.

The point Arya was making was that Sansa should have fought with everything she had to protect her family, rather than betray it, and if that meant her death, so be it. Arya was not expecting anything different from Sansa than she expected of herself or other family members here.

And sacrificing your life to protect those you love by means of letting your enemies kill you is NOT the same as committing suicide. You are still essentially being murdered, you just aren't fighting it anymore for whatever reason because of those you love.

That's a very different situation and requires a very different mindset and emotions that actively just going and taking your own life like by for example putting a bullet in your own head.

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5 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Saying you would die before betraying your family is VERY different to telling someone to kill themself.

Arya was NOT telling Sansa's to kill herself. She wouldn't do that.

What Arya was saying is she, Arya, would willingly have sacrificed her life (as In, letting their enemies kill her - as Ned did), rather than betray her family. Arya expected the same from Sansa.

The point Arya was making was that Sansa should have fought with everything she had to protect her family, rather than betray it, and if that meant her death, so be it. Arya was not expecting anything different from Sansa than she expected of herself or other family members here.

The other poster wasn't meaning suicide.....I kill myself with a knife......they meant......it'd be suicide to refuse Cersie so "suicide by cop" type deal.

Suicide by refusing to do things knowing it will lead to your death.

ETA:  And Ned didn't self sacrifice his life.  He thought he was going to live.  I understand Arya THINKS Ned self sacrificed his life but we, the audience, knows he did no such thing.  Sansa had provided a path to save his life by lying and he took it......to save Sansa's life and his own......

Another ETA:

Arya is applying a double standard to Sansa.  One she, in show, didn't do herself.  Sansa should sacrifice herself if needed to take out the Lannisters.  But Arya, in show, refused to self sacrifice herself to take out Twin.  She did exactly what she is mad at Sansa for.......she played house with Tywin instead of poisoning him or stabbing him in the neck with that knife......

She didn't act......and not only that.....she wasted her gifted kills on nobodies......

 

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7 minutes ago, Lothar said:

That is exactly what she said.

"I would have let them kill me before I betrayed my family."

She is saying it would have been better if Sansa let them kill her than what she did.  There's no other way to take it.  How do you take it?

Sansa doing anything other than what she was told would have been suicide.  

Wrong. It still would have been murder. Her enemies would have taken her life if she had not done what they wanted. That is not suicide if Sansa didn't do what they wanted, it is still very much murder.

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I'm not sure how people see Arya giving the dagger to Sansa implying she wants Sansa to kill herself. I'll need to rewatch it, but I saw that as Arya telling Sansa she is surrounded by enemies and may need to defend herself.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

The other poster wasn't meaning suicide.....I kill myself with a knife......they meant......it'd be suicide to refuse Cersie so "suicide by cop" type deal.

Suicide by refusing to do things knowing it will lead to your death.

ETA:  And Ned didn't self sacrifice his life.  He thought he was going to live.  I understand Arya THINKS Ned self sacrificed his life but we, the audience, knows he did no such thing.  Sansa had provided a path to save his life by lying and he took it......to save Sansa's life and his own......

Another ETA:

Arya is applying a double standard to Sansa.  One she, in show, didn't do herself.  Sansa should sacrifice herself if needed to take out the Lannisters.  But Arya, in show, refused to self sacrifice herself to take out Twin.  She did exactly what she is mad at Sansa for.......she played house with Tywin instead of poisoning him or stabbing him in the neck with that knife......

She didn't act......and not only that.....she wasted her gifted kills on nobodies......

 

1. Ned did sacrifice his life for Sansa. He even told Varys how he had been ready to die for years. It was only when Varys brought up Sansa ("What about your daughter's life, my Lord? Is that a precious thing to you?"), that Ned agreed to impute his own honor and lie about being a traitor. To save Sansa. Before that, Ned was willing to die to protect his own honor. 

And while Varys told him he believed Cersei would allow him to live if he joined the Nights Watch, it is unlikely Ned fully believed that. I'm sure he very much felt there was still at least some chance he would be killed...and he was willing to die if it meant protecting Sansa.

2. Arya is not applying a double standard to Sansa at all. She is applying EXACTLY the same expectation to Sansa that has of herself and the rest of her family, as I pointed out before.

And you are completely missing the point. Arya didn't want Sansa to "sacrifice herself to take out the Lannisters", but rather to be willing to sacrifice herself rather than betray her family. THAT was the only standard Arya was holding Sansa to here.

Your comments about Arya with Tywin have zero to do with the standard Arya was holding Sansa to. 

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22 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Wrong. It still would have been murder. Her enemies would have taken her life if she had not done what they wanted. That is not suicide if Sansa didn't do what they wanted, it is still very much murder.

So Arya wanted Sansa to be murdered.  Well that's a lot better!  That doesn't completely ruin her as a character at all!

Yes, those are the only two options.  Sansa writes the letter or Sansa gets murdered.  Unless you expect her to pick up a sword and beat the Kingsguard in sword fights.

Saying she wanted her to do suicide is actually the considerably nicer way to put she wanted Sansa murdered.  

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3 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

1. Ned did sacrifice his life for Sansa. He even told Varys how he had been ready to die for years. It was only when Varys brought up Sansa ("What about your daughter's life, my Lord? Is that a precious thing to you?"), that Ned agreed to impute his own honor and lie about being a traitor. To save Sansa. Before that, Ned was willing to die to protect his own honor. 

Ned was told he'd be taking the black.  We even see Cersie trying to change Joffrey's mind.  Joffrey even openly says that he's going against what Sansa and Cersie wanted.....everything is there showing that Cersie/Sansa.....and thereby Ned.....believe if he betrays his honor that he will save his family and not have to die......he can go to the wall and be with his brother and Jon......he is prepared to die but he doesn't actually make a deal where his death saves his family.....he makes a deal where he doesn't even have to die to save his family.

And while Varys told him he believed Cersei would allow him to live if he joined the Nights Watch, it is unlikely Ned fully believed that. I'm sure he very much felt there was still at least some chance he would be killed...and he was willing to die if it meant protecting Sansa.

Whether he believes it or not isn't addressed.  He signed off on the deal.  He may have thought.......I could still die if Cersie betrays the deal.......but we see in the end that Cersie was willing to go along with the deal.....cause the deal was a smart one for her.  Joffrey overruled her.

2. Arya is not applying a double standard to Sansa at all. She is applying EXACTLY the same expectation to Sansa that has of herself and the rest of her family, as I pointed out before.

And you are completely missing the point. Arya didn't want Sansa to "sacrifice herself to take out the Lannisters", but rather to be willing to sacrifice herself rather than betray her family. THAT was the only standard Arya was holding Sansa to here.

Your comments about Arya with Tywin have zero to do with the standard Arya was holding Sansa to. 

It is a CLEAR double standard.  Arya could have attacked the Lannister leader who was warring with her family but instead, she served him.  The faceless man calls her on her double standard when judging him.  "Why is this ok for you but not for me?"
 

And Arya could have listed the names..........Tywin, Cersie, Joffrey.....to Jaquen but who did she list instead.....her families enemies or her own?  Her own.  She chose anger first......the tickler.  Then herself.....kill this guy who just caught me so I don't die.......then she chooses a quick escape over suffering under the Mountain........kill the guards to get me out of here.

Yet she is saying Sansa should have suffered torture and death before serving the Lannisters interests.  While in her own story she doesn't do that at all herself.

 

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28 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Saying you would die before betraying your family is VERY different to telling someone to kill themself.

Arya was NOT telling Sansa to kill herself. She wouldn't do that.

What Arya was saying is she, Arya, would willingly have sacrificed her life (as In, letting their enemies kill her - as Ned did), rather than betray her family. Arya expected the same from Sansa.

The point Arya was making was that Sansa should have fought with everything she had to protect her family, rather than betray it, and if that meant her death, so be it. Arya was not expecting anything different from Sansa than she expected of herself or other family members here.

And sacrificing your life to protect those you love by means of letting your enemies kill you is NOT the same as committing suicide. You are still essentially being murdered, you just aren't fighting it anymore for whatever reason because of those you love.

That's a very different situation and requires a very different mindset and emotions that actively just going and taking your own life like by for example putting a bullet in your own head.

Sansa *did* do everything in her power to save her family, especially Ned. Writing that letter was a part of that - she believed (and she wasn't entirely wrong) that if she cooperated she would have been able to lessen Ned's punishment while the Lannisters would let him take the black. She did the only thing she could - begged for his life. It should have worked. It would have worked had Joffrey not been a complete psycho wheedled by LF. Sansa's entire 'crime' is not foreseeing Joffrey would react so unreasonably (something several a lot more powerful characters failed to anticipate). Apparently, she should not have even tried if she wanted to save herself some baseless accusations.

It's not Sansa's fault she was powerless to stop Joff - just like Arya herself was completely powerless to do, as she herself acknowledges. 

Arya, conveniently, never mentions quite what she expected Sansa to do in that situation. She also seems to suffer from some memory loss as she doesn't seem to remember Sansa screaming and fainting while guards hold her back. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

 

 

She also seems to suffer from some memory loss as she doesn't seem to remember Sansa screaming and fainting while guards hold her back. 

 

This is reasonable because Arya didn't see Sansa fainting and struggling to reach her father and crying for them to not do it.

Arya had been shielded from the gruesome ending sequence by Yoran.

"You didn't see that.  I made sure.".....or rough equivalent

So it is reasonable to think the last thing Arya saw was the sentencing and not Sansa's response to it.

The main theme the writers are showing (and this is not bad writing) is that Arya has no idea what Sansa has been through or who she is today........because Arya is still blinded by her dislike of Sansa in general.....and Littlefinger is using this emotion from Arya to play her so that he can then play Sansa off her......leading to Arya's death ordered by Sansa.......it is going to backfire bad.

She just assumes the worst about Sansa in every instance.....why......because show Arya doesn't like and never liked and always had unreasonable expectations......of Sansa.  That didn't just end the moment she saw Sansa again.  Should it have?  Yeah, probably.  But that isn't the Arya show character they built.  They built a character who could reasonably act like Arya is being portrayed in the show.

A very dark, cold character who dislikes Sansa. 

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