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Stormourne

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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8 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

16.75 hours, I think. Give or take a few minutes.

oooh.

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7 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Hey, what do you think about the idea that Littlefinger could have intercepted the ravens Jon could have sent after he decided to go north of the Wall? I assume Jon communicated with Sansa about the dragon-glass, since she stated that it had been weeks since she last heard from him. I would imagine LF reading the letter, smirking, thinking that there was a real chance for Jon to die. And perhaps him stashing the letter away was to cause tension in Winterfell, especially among the Northern Lords who are already stating how they should have choose Sansa to rule, etc. I think this would be a nice way for the writers to explain why there was no ravens after the dragon-glass news. Although we did not see Sansa receive any ravens from Jon, her earlier comment about her not hearing from him in weeks suggests that they were keeping in contact.

This would be a nice twist, and one that could work.

I believe it's plausible enough for a twist. Not entirely sure it will happen or not.

IMO the answers are either:

1. Jon forgot to write because he's bad at communicating

2. Dany won't let him write because he was effectively a prisoner

3. The writers just kinda dropped the ball

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1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I did address your post. I never said Sansa hid the letter, I said Littlefinger hid the letter to make it look like Sansa asked him to hide the letter.

You said this.  "But the crucial point is that Arya believes that Sansa tried to hide the evidence. Why would she do that?"

This is what I'm responding to with "You're still asking why would she hide it and I already told you." I already told you why she might do that and it's a totally innocent reason (the letter isn't her words and she's calling her dad a traitor in it, duh, it's not a letter she's proud of however Arya should know why she had to write it), and no you didn't address it, and still didn't in this post.  

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You actually think I was arguing that Sansa hid the letter?

No.  We were both discussing why Arya would think Sansa might have hid the letter.  There must be a language barrier here or an age barrier or you're simply too upset to follow which would be something.  

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Just acknowledge the fact that Arya is suspicious of Sansa. This isn't Sansa's fault. This is Littlefinger's fault. He ocestrated this feud. 

She is suspicious but she has zero reason to be.  For reasons already explained.  

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And I'm just frustrated at the fact that someone could be this oblivious to the facts.

I don't care if you're frustrated or why you're frustrated.  Stop telling me this.  Keep your embarrassing neurosis to yourself.   If you're frustrated, then stop replying.  

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17 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I believe it's plausible enough for a twist. Not entirely sure it will happen or not.

IMO the answers are either:

1. Jon forgot to write because he's bad at communicating

2. Dany won't let him write because he was effectively a prisoner

3. The writers just kinda dropped the ball

I'm inclined to go with number 3, as the most realistic option.

As for number 2, he wasn't exactly a prisoner, and especially after the deal for dragonglass was made, and even more so with the expedition beyond the Wall, it would be reasonable to send some letters. I mean, with the deal for dragonglass, Jon wants all the dragonglass he can get, and Daenerys didn't care how much he took, so it's possible he'd've wanted to send a raven to Winterfell and White Harbor to arrange additional transport ships and/or a schedule of transport ships to pick up dragonglass and take it North.

Number 1 ... he is ... but I'd think that he's not quite that bad.

 

I wish it were Littlefinger being Littlefinger, but it probably won't get mentioned again.

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3 minutes ago, Lothar said:

You said this.  "But the crucial point is that Arya believes that Sansa tried to hide the evidence. Why would she do that?"

This is what I'm responding to with "You're still asking why would she hide it and I already told you." I already told you why she might do that and it's a totally innocent reason (the letter isn't her words and she's calling her dad a traitor in it, duh, it's not a letter she's proud of however Arya should know why she had to write it), and no you didn't address it, and still didn't in this post.  

No.  We were both discussing why Arya would think Sansa might have hid the letter.  There must be a language barrier here or an age barrier or you're simply too upset to follow which would be something.  

She is suspicious but she has zero reason to be.  For reasons already explained.  

I don't care if you're frustrated or why you're frustrated.  Stop telling me this.  Keep your embarrassing neurosis to yourself.   If you're frustrated, then stop replying.  

Thank you. This was what I was trying to tell you. Arya is suspicious, because she feels she has a reason to be - but in reality, she doesn't. Thank the seven heavens we arrived at the same destination. :) This was my argument. Arya is suspicious, but she is wrong in suspecting her sister for something she did not do!

:D Can we have a truce now? Because I think we've been arguing over a mute point. All I was trying to say is that Arya is suspicious, not that she is justified in her suspicion.

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8 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Jesus, man. Relax. Arya is being played. Once they realise who is orchestrating the feud, they will turn on LF. Arya will realise her mistake, and awkwardly try to reconcile with her sister. 

That there is no coming back is stretching it. Her heart is in the right place, but she's going about it in an unreasonable manner. And this isn't even about what happened before - this is about the letter that Arya falsely believes that Sansa tried to have LF hide.

It is that fact, that Arya assumes Sansa was trying to bury the letter that has Arya so aggressive - had Arya found the letter by chance, she would have been more inclined to believe Sansa's point of view. Remember that Arya is a character that has killed over and over, in some brutal ways, e.g., Trent., so her current behaviour makes sense. She is being played, yes, but it is not out of character.

You may not like how she's behaving. But Sansa should understand that, once LF is outed, that he was the one causing all the trouble. So for Sansa to just shun Arya and not forgive Arya is just as judgemental, especially since she is the one who keeps LF so close, even though she doesn't trust him.

The narrative will be resolved and the sisters will realise who is the true asshole. :) 

I know that's where it is heading - they will make LF a head shorter as a team and go back to being loving sisters.

The problem is that I don't think the writers quite realise what it is they wrote. The character, as portrayed on screen, has gone way way way across the line. They didn't just have a disagreement and she wasn't just questioning Sansa's motives - she was deliberately cruel and basically threatened to kill her sister. In a well-written show, that would be followed by a major redemption arc for Arya before the reconciliation, but it clearly won't be and it's the annoying part. The show wants me to pretend that both characters where somehow equally at fault for this when they wrote it as clearly one sided.

Blaming it on LF playing her doesn't really absolve her of responsibility. He might have planted the seed, but it's Arya herself who jumped to the worst conclusion. She could have easily questioned  Sansa's motives in apparently hiding the note (of course that would break the nonsensical plot). The things she was saying were not fed to her by LF but seemed to stem from her own experience and character and predate anything Sansa and LF might be conspiring about in the present. She seems to have a genuine deep mistrust of her sister and blame her for their father's death. That's huge and that's on Arya. If the characters are to move on it should absolutely be addressed. Yet I'd bet money that it's never brought up again once LF has been dispatched. 

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9 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I know that's where it is heading - they will make LF a head shorter as a team and go back to being loving sisters.

The problem is that I don't think the writers quite realise what it is they wrote. The character, as portrayed on screen, has gone way way way across the line. They didn't just have a disagreement and she wasn't just questioning Sansa's motives - she was deliberately cruel and basically threatened to kill her sister. In a well-written show, that would be followed by a major redemption arc for Arya before the reconciliation, but it clearly won't be and it's the annoying part. The show wants me to pretend that both characters where somehow equally at fault for this when they wrote it as clearly one sided.

Blaming it on LF playing her doesn't really absolve her of responsibility. He might have planted the seed, but it's Arya herself who jumped to the worst conclusion. She could have easily questioned  Sansa's motives in apparently hiding the note (of course that would break the nonsensical plot). The things she was saying were not fed to her by LF but seemed to stem from her own experience and character and predate anything Sansa and LF might be conspiring about in the present. She seems to have a genuine deep mistrust of her sister and blame her for their father's death. That's huge and that's on Arya. If the characters are to move on it should absolutely be addressed. Yet I'd bet money that it's never brought up again once LF has been dispatched. 

I think we have to also consider Arya Stark's personality and the reason she went so overboard in interrogating her sister. From the moment she made her escape from King's Landing, she has been surrounded by violence. She's killed to survive, than killed to get revenge, etc. All she has known for the last few years is extreme violence. What the writers might have been trying to do is that when it comes to family, Arya will go down the extreme route, even when she does not have all the facts.

Arya believes she is right, but that does not mean she is actually right. The key to this plot is how she will react when she indeed figures out she has been played, that her treatment of Sansa was abusive and wrong.

At this point, I've tried to overlook the deteriorating writing of season 7 and take what is shown at face value. I hope that the writers will take the constructive criticism that certified critics have given the episode, and improve the script for season 8. That is the best we can hope for, to be honest.

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10 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I know that's where it is heading - they will make LF a head shorter as a team and go back to being loving sisters.

The problem is that I don't think the writers quite realise what it is they wrote. The character, as portrayed on screen, has gone way way way across the line. They didn't just have a disagreement and she wasn't just questioning Sansa's motives - she was deliberately cruel and basically threatened to kill her sister. 

Depends on how this final episode is written to determine that action. For one, I don't believe Arya saying that stuff about wondering what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses and be Lady of Winterfell and how all she would need to do that is Sansa's face was actually a threat on Sansa's life at all. She was still playing the game of Faces when she said that stuff but I think the message she was giving Sansa, particularly by handing her the dagger hilt first, was that Arya is no threat to her and is on her side. Part of that so called threat was clearly a lie from Arya anyway. Arya never wanted to wear pretty dresses or to be a Lady. 

Admittedly, it was a pretty messed up way for Arya to give Sansa that message, but you don't go through what Arya had at her age without coming through somewhat messed up.

 

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35 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Depends on how this final episode is written to determine that action. For one, I don't believe Arya saying that stuff about wondering what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses and be Lady of Winterfell and how all she would need to do that is Sansa's face was actually a threat on Sansa's life at all. She was still playing the game of Faces when she said that stuff but I think the message she was giving Sansa, particularly by handing her the dagger hilt first, was that Arya is no threat to her and is on her side. Part of that so called threat was clearly a lie from Arya anyway. Arya never wanted to wear pretty dresses or to be a Lady. 

Admittedly, it was a pretty messed up way for Arya to give Sansa that message, but you don't go through what Arya had at her age without coming through somewhat messed up.

 

The question is, would Sansa had gotten the message? When I first watched the scene, I clearly viewed it as a threat that Arya could wear her face, become her if she wanted, but she wouldn't for now - that's when she handed the dagger over, suggesting that she does not even need the dagger to be a threat to Sansa. I think this was her asserting dominance over Sansa, showing that should not be fucked with.

And sure, it was fucked up and borderline-psychopathic. But that is who Arya has become right now. Her trauma is showing in her actions. She will end any threat that is pointed at her family and home, even if that threat comes from her sister.

I actually sympathized with both Arya and Sansa in that situation. The question is, will Arya be brought back from the abyss? In the books, I think Jon Snow is the one character who can save her from the darkness. In the show, it could be both Jon Snow and Gendry Waters. Remember that Gendry in the books did abandon Arya for the brotherhood, whereas he was taken by the Red Witch in the show. That's why I'm still peeved at Gendry in the books - Arya offered him a place at Winterfell, and he shot her down. This actually made her upset. And after that fact, Arya never had a positive thought about him. Side note: that is why I cringe at the whole Arya/Gendry shipping that goes on.

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To be honest, and as bad as it sounds, I think Arya might be giving Sansa more benefit of the doubt than she would almost anyone else. Sansa's family, so Arya needs definitive proof before doing anything to her - but I think that if Sansa weren't family, Arya would've gone much further than she has.

If Sansa hadn't said they needed Littlefinger, I'm pretty sure Arya would've killed him already.

 

With the death of her parents, and in the absence of Nymeria, Jon is unquestionably the single most important person in the world to Arya, and probably by a significant margin (Bran's probably second). Right now, Arya suspects that Sansa might be a threat to Jon. Arya really only knows one way to deal with threats - and that's to end them, permanently and with extreme prejudice.

 

53 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I actually sympathized with both Arya and Sansa in that situation. The question is, will Arya be brought back from the abyss? In the books, I think Jon Snow is the one character who can save her from the darkness. In the show, it could be both Jon Snow and Gendry Waters. Remember that Gendry in the books did abandon Arya for the brotherhood, whereas he was taken by the Red Witch in the show. That's why I'm still peeved at Gendry in the books - Arya offered him a place at Winterfell, and he shot her down. This actually made her upset. And after that fact, Arya never had a positive thought about him. Side note: that is why I cringe at the whole Arya/Gendry shipping that goes on.

I hope Arya gets brought back from the edge. I agree that if anybody can, it'll be Jon. Although, in the books, what stirs her from Braavos and back to Westeros is likely to be either learning Ramsay Snow married "Arya Stark", or learning that Jon Snow has been killed in a Night's Watch mutiny. If it's the latter, then she's liable to go much darker before Jon can pull her back from the brink.

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35 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

To be honest, and as bad as it sounds, I think Arya might be giving Sansa more benefit of the doubt than she would almost anyone else. Sansa's family, so Arya needs definitive proof before doing anything to her - but I think that if Sansa weren't family, Arya would've gone much further than she has.

If Sansa hadn't said they needed Littlefinger, I'm pretty sure Arya would've killed him already.

 

With the death of her parents, and in the absence of Nymeria, Jon is unquestionably the single most important person in the world to Arya, and probably by a significant margin (Bran's probably second). Right now, Arya suspects that Sansa might be a threat to Jon. Arya really only knows one way to deal with threats - and that's to end them, permanently and with extreme prejudice.

 

I hope Arya gets brought back from the edge. I agree that if anybody can, it'll be Jon. Although, in the books, what stirs her from Braavos and back to Westeros is likely to be either learning Ramsay Snow married "Arya Stark", or learning that Jon Snow has been killed in a Night's Watch mutiny. If it's the latter, then she's liable to go much darker before Jon can pull her back from the brink.

I wonder how she would react when Jon tells her that he died for her. :( Perhaps that moment will break the wall around her heart, and let the light of love in. That is what was most tragic for me when Jon Snow was stabbed in book five. He died trying to save his little sister from a monster that makes cloaks of skins. Jon needs to go back home and give the psychological support she needs. 

I always imagined Arya could become the new spymaster once Varys dies. She could also be the master of assassins, the shadow arm of the crown :D This way, she would be close to Jon once or if he becomes King of Westeros. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I wonder how she would react when Jon tells her that he died for her. :( Perhaps that moment will break the wall around her heart, and let the light of love in. That is what was most tragic for me when Jon Snow was stabbed in book five. He died trying to save his little sister from a monster that makes cloaks of skins. Jon needs to go back home and give the psychological support she needs. 

I always imagined Arya could become the new spymaster once Varys dies. She could also be the master of assassins, the shadow arm of the crown :D This way, she would be close to Jon once or if he becomes King of Westeros. 

 

I don't think Arya'd make a good spymaster at this point (book or show). She qualifies as a master spy, but not a spymaster. The spymaster organizes and controls networks of agents, informants, and other assets. Arya, so far as we know, has not training or experience in running or developing assets under her control, all her training and experience has been solo operations. Nor, so far as we know, does she have any experience in teaching/training someone else. Arya is 007, not M.

Team Stark doesn't really have a true spymaster type that's remotely trustworthy. At least, out of those we've seen and know about.

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34 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

I don't think Arya'd make a good spymaster at this point (book or show). She qualifies as a master spy, but not a spymaster. The spymaster organizes and controls networks of agents, informants, and other assets. Arya, so far as we know, has not training or experience in running or developing assets under her control, all her training and experience has been solo operations. Nor, so far as we know, does she have any experience in teaching/training someone else. Arya is 007, not M.

Team Stark doesn't really have a true spymaster type that's remotely trustworthy. At least, out of those we've seen and know about.

I actually want her to learn from Varys. Whether it will happen, probably not. But :P I pass the time while imagining these scenarios.

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I'd say that the big issue is that the show has up until Arya's return to WF not explored her being in a dark place psychologically at all. Her murders are treated as fist-pumping moments. The showrunners talk about how we can't all be like Arya, specifically to disparage Sansa. Arya becoming an assassin is shown as her being a bad-ass and celebrated by the narrative.

So to go from that into suddenly presenting Arya's experiences as leaving her so deeply damaged is very jarring. It could work in the hands of a good writer, sure, but D&D have not been crowning themselves with glory in that area and have specifically shown little aptitude for portraying trauma sensitively. There's also the fact that while I can't put my finger on it, I get the impression that the show is still trying to present Arya's deeply disturbing behaviour as her having a point. 

I suppose we'll see soon enough but I don't have high hopes for the show to treat this as a major character flaw. And if we are heading towards Arya stabbing LF with the dagger I can't see how they would reconcile this with simultaneously portraying Arya killing people as a traumatic experience.

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36 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'd say that the big issue is that the show has up until Arya's return to WF not explored her being in a dark place psychologically at all. Her murders are treated as fist-pumping moments. The showrunners talk about how we can't all be like Arya, specifically to disparage Sansa. Arya becoming an assassin is shown as her being a bad-ass and celebrated by the narrative.

So to go from that into suddenly presenting Arya's experiences as leaving her so deeply damaged is very jarring. It could work in the hands of a good writer, sure, but D&D have not been crowning themselves with glory in that area and have specifically shown little aptitude for portraying trauma sensitively. There's also the fact that while I can't put my finger on it, I get the impression that the show is still trying to present Arya's deeply disturbing behaviour as her having a point. 

I suppose we'll see soon enough but I don't have high hopes for the show to treat this as a major character flaw. And if we are heading towards Arya stabbing LF with the dagger I can't see how they would reconcile this with simultaneously portraying Arya killing people as a traumatic experience.

Even when I write about Arya in the show, I sometimes am influenced by the Arya in the books, who is psychologically traumatised - her loss of identity is what allowed her to seamlessly transition into becoming a Faceless Man. I can see that for those who haven't read the books, the transition from season 6 to 7 is jarring in terms of her characterisation.

I still enjoy her narrative, though. I guess that's because I've read the books, I can understand how the writers were trying to portray Arya this season. The transition has not been the best, most certainly. I love Asoiaf so much that I'm really lenient towards the writers, who have been deteriating in quality this season. 

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7 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

 There's also the fact that while I can't put my finger on it, I get the impression that the show is still trying to present Arya's deeply disturbing behaviour as her having a point.

I too got this impression, it's disturbing and honestly I don't know what to do with it… :unsure:

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14 hours ago, Kytheros said:

I'm inclined to go with number 3, as the most realistic option.

As for number 2, he wasn't exactly a prisoner, and especially after the deal for dragonglass was made, and even more so with the expedition beyond the Wall, it would be reasonable to send some letters. I mean, with the deal for dragonglass, Jon wants all the dragonglass he can get, and Daenerys didn't care how much he took, so it's possible he'd've wanted to send a raven to Winterfell and White Harbor to arrange additional transport ships and/or a schedule of transport ships to pick up dragonglass and take it North.

Number 1 ... he is ... but I'd think that he's not quite that bad.

 

I wish it were Littlefinger being Littlefinger, but it probably won't get mentioned again.

Yeah. I figure that they wanted to add in a line that said Sansa hadn't heard from Jon or something like that but ended up creating a whole new question---why didn't Jon send word?

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7 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Even when I write about Arya in the show, I sometimes am influenced by the Arya in the books, who is psychologically traumatised - her loss of identity is what allowed her to seamlessly transition into becoming a Faceless Man. I can see that for those who haven't read the books, the transition from season 6 to 7 is jarring in terms of her characterisation.

I still enjoy her narrative, though. I guess that's because I've read the books, I can understand how the writers were trying to portray Arya this season. The transition has not been the best, most certainly. I love Asoiaf so much that I'm really lenient towards the writers, who have been deteriating in quality this season. 

 

8 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'd say that the big issue is that the show has up until Arya's return to WF not explored her being in a dark place psychologically at all. Her murders are treated as fist-pumping moments. The showrunners talk about how we can't all be like Arya, specifically to disparage Sansa. Arya becoming an assassin is shown as her being a bad-ass and celebrated by the narrative.

So to go from that into suddenly presenting Arya's experiences as leaving her so deeply damaged is very jarring. It could work in the hands of a good writer, sure, but D&D have not been crowning themselves with glory in that area and have specifically shown little aptitude for portraying trauma sensitively. There's also the fact that while I can't put my finger on it, I get the impression that the show is still trying to present Arya's deeply disturbing behaviour as her having a point. 

I suppose we'll see soon enough but I don't have high hopes for the show to treat this as a major character flaw. And if we are heading towards Arya stabbing LF with the dagger I can't see how they would reconcile this with simultaneously portraying Arya killing people as a traumatic experience.

 

56 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I too got this impression, it's disturbing and honestly I don't know what to do with it… :unsure:

 

 

TBH, I just really want them to show Arya's actions for what they are--disturbing. Not her being little miss badass, not them being victorious fist pump moments, not her being super cool and kidass...

 

But as a girl who from the age of 10 to 17 has been brutally traumatized and has become very hostile and violent

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Yeah. I figure that they wanted to add in a line that said Sansa hadn't heard from Jon or something like that but ended up creating a whole new question---why didn't Jon send word?

I just don't get why they added the complication by adding that line in the first place.

The show has never had a problem leaving questions open when the answers aren't critical to the plot, and that's especially true this season. We don't know exactly what's happening in the Reach beyond the fact that they're no longer in the fight—and that's fine, because there are multiple plausible scenarios to choose from, and all we really need to know is that they're no longer in the fight.

And similarly, if we don't know how often Sansa and Jon have been communicating, that's fine, because there are multiple plausible scenarios to choose from, and they all make Sansa's current situation understandable believable. So why, this time, did they go out of their way to answer an unnecessary question, which just raises another one that they're not going to answer but now we can't help but notice?

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2 hours ago, Pandean said:

 

 

 

 

TBH, I just really want them to show Arya's actions for what they are--disturbing. Not her being little miss badass, not them being victorious fist pump moments, not her being super cool and kidass...

 

But as a girl who from the age of 10 to 17 has been brutally traumatized and has become very hostile and violent

 

 

Yeah I dont think she is ever going to be capable of having a normal life!

Its better when she dies at the end of the war, cause otherwise she will probably get the most depressed winner of a war

 

Though, I so hope arya will kill LF tonight! At this moment in the story its better that she is badass

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