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Dawn of Fyre

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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2 minutes ago, Kizzle said:

Killing Bran would bring her a step closer to achieving her dream of becoming a queen. 

She didn't tell Jon about the knights of the Vale and she waited for it to become clear Jon's army was going to lose to swoop in and save the day. Clearly the nobles are under the perception that she was the one who won the battle which is exactly how she herself described it. That's suggest her ambition for power is still strong. She wants the lords to support her over Jon. She stopped trying to talk Jon out of leaving the moment he told her she be left in charge.

Bran certainly didn't seem too happy to see Sansa when the two were reunited and when Arya was hugging him he just glared at Sansa.

I cannot believe Arya is simply falling for one of Little Finger's little plots. She has spent too much time learning to sniff out deception. I'm betting Sansa is on Arya's list and she's provoking Sansa to get her to attack her at which point she can kill Sansa in self-defense which would be the only situation where she could kill Sansa without Brienne seeking revenge.

It has also been said that Sansa likes nice things. If she did own a dagger that's about as nice as they come.

I don't think Sansa would proactively attempt to overthrow Jon Snow. She is waiting, preparing, and perhaps hoping he doesn't return? And that she can't help but think she deserves to rule is what creates this moral dilemma. That she would not appease the lords while Jon is away would not be a smart move, especially if Jon does not return. They need the northern army in the north. However, that she's taking these actions while secretly harboring this resent against Jon Snow for being crowned king is what worries Arya.

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4 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I'm not fully convinced of that. I think it's very possible Arya genuinely did become No One after killing waif at end of last season and is now only acting in her old identity of Arya Stark, so the real emotions of Arya Stark are no longer there.

There's definitely more to be revealed here. Also, a lot would make more sense if Arya was truly No One now.

1. Jaqen's line "finally a girl is no one", which makes no sense if Arya killed the waif and just resumed being Arya, turning her back on the Faceless Men and leaving a death cult with no consequences. It would make much more sense if Arya's survival and defeat of the Waif was passing her final test to become a Faceless Man and her first assignment as No One was to pose as "Arya Stark" for purposes yet unrevealed.

2. Jaqens knowing smile as Arya leaves House of Black and White

3. Maisie's markedly different delivery of the character this season. The lack of emotion and stoic nature of her reunions with Hot Pie and Nymeria.

I would actually not like that outcome. What I love about Arya is her relationship with Jon Snow. In Braavos, she throw everything away except the sword he gave her, the sword that reminded her of his smile. That she would fully embrace 'No-One' would ruin her character. Her bond with Jon is the strongest bond there is in the books. They literally think about one another throughout the five books. Jon broke his oath to march south against Ramsay because he wanted to save Arya (Jeyne Poole in disguise).

And the show-writers know this - to ruin that bond would be a disservice to her character. Me, and many other people are waiting for the Jon/Arya reunion. So I will stick with my original comment about why Arya is so aggressive towards Sansa.

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10 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I don't think we'll get this level of conflict in the books, though. Although... with Sansa about to marry Harry the Heir, and try to win Winterfell in that way, this could lead to a similar conflict... Interesting. I hope they kill LF this season, though. He needs to go, unless he has a bigger part to play next season.

Well, I think we'll get more internal conflict within Arya, and less external conflict between her and Sansa, but I think there will be some of both.

And yes, I really hope that LF's current plan is his last hurrah. It's hard to imagine anything they could do with him in S8 that would fit his obsessions nearly as well, so he'd be a pretty pointless character to keep around. (Book!LF is different—the conflict between creating chaos to get power and actually taking and exercising the power he's made available may be more interesting than the conflict between getting power and getting Sansa as a Cat substitute. But in the show, no, it isn't.)

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2 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I would actually not like that outcome. What I love about Arya is her relationship with Jon Snow. In Braavos, she throw everything away except the sword he gave her, the sword that reminded her of his smile. That she would fully embrace 'No-One' would ruin her character. Her bond with Jon is the strongest bond there is in the books. They literally think about one another throughout the five books. Jon broke his oath to march south against Ramsay because he wanted to save Arya (Jeyne Poole in disguise).

And the show-writers know this - to ruin that bond would be a disservice to her character. Me, and many other people are waiting for the Jon/Arya reunion. So I will stick with my original comment about why Arya is so aggressive towards Sansa.

Jon and Arya don't have the bond in the show that they do in the books.

Also, just because I think there's a chance Arya may be No One now (or at the very least doing her very best to convince Faceless Men she is no one) doesn't mean she will necessarily remain No One or be that at the end of the story.

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53 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

The conflict is not pointless, though. Not when you know what Arya experienced in her journey, what she saw, what she heard. She saw Littlefinger at Harrenhal supping with Tywin, she witnessed the Red Wedding take place, and heard that Sansa actively choose to marry Ramsay Bolton after the fact. Then she reached Winterfell and saw Littlefinger beside Sansa.

Would this not look suspect to Arya? Remember, she does not know what audience knows, so we can't judge her for not knowing all the facts. But some of the facts are damning.

Them reuniting and being all chummy would have been unrealistic. Would you not agree with this take on the issue?

It should look bad to Arya. It might even look like Sansa is not picking her friends well. In which case, she should be trying to warn her sister, not accuse her of being evil. What would you do if you saw your sister chatting with a murderer? Assume she had poor judgement, or that she has turned to the dark side?

Don't forget the rest of my sentence after "pointless conflict", either: "that only makes sense if you imagine the characters are idiots who never talk to each other or explain themselves." Yeah, I can see how this could look very suspect to Arya. If she and Sansa don't talk or explain themselves. And if you assume Arya is too stupid to realise a knife at your throat isn't necessarily a literal knife, literally at your throat.

 

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2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Well, I think we'll get more internal conflict within Arya, and less external conflict between her and Sansa, but I think there will be some of both.

And yes, I really hope that LF's current plan is his last hurrah. It's hard to imagine anything they could do with him in S8 that would fit his obsessions nearly as well, so he'd be a pretty pointless character to keep around. (Book!LF is different—the conflict between creating chaos to get power and actually taking and exercising the power he's made available may be more interesting than the conflict between getting power and getting Sansa as a Cat substitute. But in the show, no, it isn't.)

With Bran's warging abilities in the novels, it is suggested he can peer into the past, or will be able to - not into the present or future, though. I can remember reading how Bloodraven would sometimes get lost in his visions of the past, of his lost-love. So I do believe Bran will be key to unmasking Littlefinger in the books - he has the means, so it would not be a dues ex machina.

I would laugh out loud if LF randomly dies from a heart attack in the books - how realistic would that be, though. Imagine him about to achieve his dream, touched the Iron Throne, and he clenches his chest, gasps, and topples over into the chair - dead! Ha! That's realism. Anticlimactic, sure, but not impossible.

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5 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

1. Jaqen's line "finally a girl is no one", which makes no sense if Arya killed the waif and just resumed being Arya, turning her back on the Faceless Men and leaving a death cult with no consequences.

But she didn't just resume being Arya when she left the Faceless Men. That only happened later, because of the Lannister soldier, Hot Pie, and Nymeria meetings. So whatever consequences there will be with the FM for her turning to that path, they haven't happened yet.

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1 hour ago, Kizzle said:

Just a theory but I think she's hostile because she recognized the dagger belonged to Sansa and it was Sansa who tried to have Bran killed, That might be why Arya handed it to her, so she would realize Arya knows it was her.

What?!

Wait... what?!

why do you think it was Sansa's dagger?  Where would Sansa get a valyrian dagger in season 1 that no one knew about?

Youre just trolling right?

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2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Jon and Arya don't have the bond in the show that they do in the books.

Also, just because I think there's a chance Arya may be No One now (or at the very least doing her very best to convince Faceless Men she is no one) doesn't mean she will necessarily remain No One or be that at the end of the story.

I know ;/ Although, the bond experienced in the novels is all through internal commentary. That's why the show couldn't do it - it is unfortunate, but there really was no alternative. You can just have Arya say "I miss Jon constantly, lol" Would be weird to watch.  But, I do hope that when they do reunite, that aforementioned bond is portrayed visually.

In terms of your second point, I think we've already seen Arya in her No One phase, and she is just now regaining her identity as Arya Stark. It would line up with how Book-Arya is at the moment.

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2 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I would laugh out loud if LF randomly dies from a heart attack in the books - how realistic would that be, though. Imagine him about to achieve his dream, touched the Iron Throne, and he clenches his chest, gasps, and topples over into the chair - dead! Ha! That's realism. Anticlimactic, sure, but not impossible.

You need to make it more like the Twilight Zone episode "Time Enough at Last", where he lives to realize the futility: He's just about to touch the Iron Throne, when he has a stroke and collapses. And when he comes to, he can't walk. He'd finally set things up so people would accept a lowly noble from a bottom-rung House as King, but there's no way they're going to accept a cripple. It's not fair! It's not fair! The best laid plans of mice and men, and Petyr Baelish, the small man in the beard who wanted nothing but total control over an entire kingdom…

Or, better, like the Futurama parody. "Well, it's not that bad. I can still put a figurehead on the Throne and rule everyone from behind the scenes." And then he has another stroke and now he can't even talk. "Good thing my hands still work, so I can control him by writing." Then his hands fall off, his tongue falls out, and his head falls off. Cursed by his own hubris.

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18 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Well, she would have learned about the marriage when she returned to Winterfell, so that doesn't matter in terms of logic. Arya is in a complicated position, her emotions are acting on what she knows to be true - not what are necessarily true - and the Sansa she knew before leaving Winterfell. She knows that Sansa 'adored' Joffrey - and that she betrayed her and got her friend killed. She knows that Littlefinger sided with the Lannisters since she saw him supping with Tywin at Harrenhal. She knows that the Bolton's played a part in the Red Wedding, and that Sansa married Ramsay (it does not matter when she learned this fact). She knows that Sansa actively choose to marry the traitor, and in Arya's mind, that is a betrayal, even though Sansa suffered as a result - her suffering does not really justify her marriage, not in Arya's eyes - how could it?

First, Sansa didn't kill Mycah, he was dead long before Sansa did anything. Whatever Sansa could have said on the Trident, couldn't have changed the fact that Mycah was already dead.

Yes, she knows a lot. But she doesn't know for a fact that Sansa married Ramsay on her own will. No one in WF even knows that Sansa actively chose to marry a traitor. Arya's knowledge seems limited on many things and now she knows everything? I understand that she wouldn't trust LF, or that she doesn't feel OK with Sansa, but you actually added some things which are simply not there.

Quote

You have to know this. For me, it is believable because I know all the events that happened to them beforehand. I know they've never had a strong relationship, and I know that both Arya and Sansa do want to protect Winterfell - it's just that Arya does not trust Sansa yet, not when she knows all these facts about her sister that are damning.

But, first you argue things we are not even sure she knows. Second, Robb needed two seconds to understand Sansa's position. Arya we know would be able to understand Sansa's position. Arya we know would go straight to Bran and end her doubts. But conveniently she doesn't do that. It is bad writing and Arya is presented as someone who can't properly think about the situation she is in. That is why many people have issues with Arya. Because the truth  is so attainable and it seems she can't reach for it. 

34 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

The reconciliation will most likely happen over the course of the next season. But I doubt they'll ever share the same bond she shared with Jon Snow in the past.

Well, they never had that bond, so it would be unreasonable to expect it to happen. At this point, I think Sansa is closer to Jon more than she is closer to Arya and Bran.

30 minutes ago, Kizzle said:

She didn't tell Jon about the knights of the Vale and she waited for it to become clear Jon's army was going to lose to swoop in and save the day. Clearly the nobles are under the perception that she was the one who won the battle which is exactly how she herself described it. That's suggest her ambition for power is still strong. She wants the lords to support her over Jon. She stopped trying to talk Jon out of leaving the moment he told her she be left in charge.

Don't forget to include Jon in that list of people who think she won the battle. As the matter of fact, include everyone in-universe because that is what the show canon is clear about. Knights of the Vale won the battle and they came for Sansa. Sansa didn't wait until everyone is dead,otherwise there would be consequences to that. So, no... Show canon is clear about this. People just try to ignore it.

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11 hours ago, John Meta said:

I think that a portion of the viewing audience is having difficulty connecting information into a cohesive big picture. This is one example. Here are the facts that Arya knows:

1. She was told Jon was king in Winterfell; favoring Jon, she goes to Winterfell to reunite.

2. She arrives at Winterfell to find Jon has been drawn away and Sansa is in charge.

3. She immediately sees Littlefinger is at Winterfell, and by Sansa's side.

4. Last time Arya saw Littlefinger, he was a known Lannister conspirator plotting with Tywin at Dreadfort to kill Rob (a plot that came to fruition before Arya at the scene of the Red Wedding).

5. She sees the north lords being persuaded to turn against Jon and join Sansa.

6. She sees Littlefinger (apparently) follow Sansa's order to find and hide a message.*

7. She reads said message which shows Sansa betraying the Starks and pledging to the Lannisters.

8. Sansa avoids her questions about a possible desire to by queen of Winterfell.

She also knows that Sansa thought Arya was dead and so would never have expected her to arrive in Winterfell in the first place.

Given all of these things, how could any rational person not come to the conclusion that sansa has the stink of Lannister conspirator all over her? True or not true, it's undeniable that all of these facts are pointing reasonably at incrimination of Sansa. Arya has no killed sansa, but she has put on a show of force (sparring with Brienne) and is engaging in intimidation tactics to let Sansa know that if she is harboring any ideas, if these indicators are pointing the truth; then Arya will kill Sansa for betraying the Starks and conspiring with Lannisters. 

*this one is clearly Littlefinger's manipulation of the event, but it is not the "one and only" reason for Arya's suspicions: it is the culminative piece, the proverbial straw on the camel's back, that is lending force to Arya's suspicions. 

In the end, Arya is reacting appropriately, might even say, reserved reaction giving her sister the benefit of the doubt (if this was someone else but her blood; she probably would have already killed them just to be on the safe side for Jon); the audience is that which is reacting irrationally in thinking Arya should not be behaving like someone who highly suspects a Lannister conspiracy in the midst of her home.

 

Also I would call that Arya almost certainly doesn't know Littlefinger was making Sansa look bad with the message (again, that one message is just the final piece of a bigger picture, and isn't the cause of Arya's suspicions, but is icing on the cake); but that Sansa does now know that Littlefinger is involved. This is why she sent Brienne away right after Littlefinger suggested using Brienne against Arya because of her oath. Also why Sansa stayed in Winterfell; because if she left, Littlefinger would take over and she has to stop him.

 

I found this comment in another post, and this sums up my original argument nicely.

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One has to wonder why Jon was not so suspicious of Sansa. 

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18 minutes ago, Risto said:

1) First, Sansa didn't kill Mycah, he was dead long before Sansa did anything. Whatever Sansa could have said on the Trident, couldn't have changed the fact that Mycah was already dead.

2) Yes, she knows a lot. But she doesn't know for a fact that Sansa married Ramsay on her own will. No one in WF even knows that Sansa actively chose to marry a traitor. Arya's knowledge seems limited on many things and now she knows everything? I understand that she wouldn't trust LF, or that she doesn't feel OK with Sansa, but you actually added some things which are simply not there.

3) But, first you argue things we are not even sure she knows. Second, Robb needed two seconds to understand Sansa's position. Arya we know would be able to understand Sansa's position. Arya we know would go straight to Bran and end her doubts. But conveniently she doesn't do that. It is bad writing and Arya is presented as someone who can't properly think about the situation she is in. That is why many people have issues with Arya. Because the truth  is so attainable and it seems she can't reach for it. 

4) Well, they never had that bond, so it would be unreasonable to expect it to happen. At this point, I think Sansa is closer to Jon more than she is closer to Arya and Bran.

5) Don't forget to include Jon in that list of people who think she won the battle. As the matter of fact, include everyone in-universe because that is what the show canon is clear about. Knights of the Vale won the battle and they came for Sansa. Sansa didn't wait until everyone is dead,otherwise there would be consequences to that. So, no... Show canon is clear about this. People just try to ignore it.

1) No she did not kill Mycah, but her lying about what happened at the Trident got him killed, and her own direwolf.

2) Going straight to Bran would be poor writing since it would be just for convenience-sake. And we must assume she knows Sansa married Ramsay without being forced like she was with Tyrion - it would have been brought up beforehand, insofar as Sansa would have lied to the other lords and said she was forced to marry Ramsay, which would not make sense since the Knights of the Vale knew she was in the Vale before marrying Ramsay. So there is no where she could have lied about the marriage not being consensual. - She knows Littlefinger was with Tywin at either Harrenhal or the Dreadfort, so she knows he was conspiring with the Lannisters while they war with the Starks. She knows Roose played a major part in the Red Wedding, too. These three facts are pretty damning, no?

3) Refer to my second response. Arya and Sansa were never tight, and what I've written before should show how distrustful Arya is of Sansa at this moment. They can't just sit down and have a calm conversation, no matter how much we might want that - that would be bad writing. They are strangers to each other now, and Arya is much to suspect of her sister to calmly listen. Arya was said to have wolves blood in her system, which makes her hotheaded. And trying to have a calm conversation with someone hotheaded is not so simple. And the many people who have issues with Arya are the ones who have not remembered the points I originally brought up about what she knows about certain events. And Bran could shed light on the situation, but that would defeat the whole purpose sine the writers needed some drama to last through the season. That is not bad writing... Resolving every plot-point in every logical fashion does necessarily not = good TV.

4) A reconciliation with Arya and Sansa could unfold in season 8 - they won't ever have the same relationship like Arya has with Jon, was what I was getting at, but they might become civil to one another, even grow to trust each other.

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2 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Why was he not so suspicious of Olly?

I don't think he wasn't suspicious of Olly. He saw the signs, he was just thinking that he taught him well. He didn't. But, the point remains that Jon had every case to be far more suspicious of Sansa than Arya. But, he did something this Arya is unable to do. Think and talk.

God, this version of Arya sucks.

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7 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

What?!

Wait... what?!

why do you think it was Sansa's dagger?  Where would Sansa get a valyrian dagger in season 1 that no one knew about?

Youre just trolling right?

From Littlefinger of course. 

In any case Littlefinger told Sansa that Brienne would interfere if one of the sisters tried to hurt the other and a couple scenes later Sansa sends Brienne away. The only explanation for that is that it's Sansa who is intending to harm Arya, maybe to keep her from showing that message to the nobles, who knows. 

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10 minutes ago, Risto said:

I don't think he wasn't suspicious of Olly. He saw the signs, he was just thinking that he taught him well. He didn't. But, the point remains that Jon had every case to be far more suspicious of Sansa than Arya. But, he did something this Arya is unable to do. Think and talk.

God, this version of Arya sucks.

Jon trusting Sansa is natural. She is family, and I don't think she ever did something that made him question her after they reunited. And Arya does not suck... :( She is just trying to protect her family, and although she is misguided at this point, you can't hold that against her, not when she rightly suspects Sansa of potential betrayal.

Sansa did lie in favor Joffrey at the Trident, which got her friend killed, and Sansa's direwolf. She knows that Littlefinger was sided with Tywin when she was his cupbearer, and she knows that Roose Bolton played a part in the Red Wedding. Now, she sees Littlefinger advising Sansa, knows that Sansa married Ramsay (which would make Arya question her sister), and  she can't help but be suspicious at this point. I would, and so would you. It's natural

You have to try and experience the situation through Arya's point of view. And once you do, it does make sense that she would be so distrustful of Sansa, so angry. And it is her anger towards her own sister that is causing these problems between them, causing her not to really listen to what Sansa has to say. It is realistic in this sense - if you've ever had a fight with your sibling or cousin, you'd know that having a calm conversation during that falling out is nearly impossible.

You may not like Arya, but her characterization in this season makes sense.

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The only problematic part this season is why Arya got so aggressive with Sansa but even then, Sansa did threaten her with 'men loyal'. The writers as shown by the 'behind the episode' understand Sansa and care about Sansa's perspective more than Arya's. So its not so surprising that Arya's motivations look cloudy where Sansa's are very simplistic. 

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