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Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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16 minutes ago, Kleia said:

Mostly posting to ask what impact, if any, the mummer's show in Braavos that Arya saw a few times would have impacted her perception of Sansa, Tyrion, the Lannisters, etc.

The rewrite that Arya suggested of Cersei's purple wedding speech in 'The Bloody Hand' added Cersei pledging to get revenge against Sansa and Tyrion for Joffrey's murder (rather than just sorrow for his death, as in the first version of the script).  She suggested those changes after she went to Braavos, based on her perception of events that happened before? Harrenhal.  If Arya knows that Cersei wants to kill Sansa, why would she think Sansa was suddenly colluding with Cersei?  Unless she thinks Sansa's been duped into it...

I was thinking about it too. Arya knows that the presentation is biased (for example their portrayal of Ned), but seemed to buy some of it. For example she thought Sansa killed Joffrey and she knows Cersei wants Sansa's head. She also learned about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa and probably thinks that Tyrion's was raping her. Based on this play (which, amusingly, was still one of the best updates Arya's gotten) Arya should be convinced that Sansa is totally anti-Lannister.

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4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

So, the OP is basically arguing that Arya is acting like a spoiled brat who hasn't overcome the resentments she had at eleven? That's... actually correct.

The thing is, Arya arrived to Winterfell three minutes ago and doesn't know shit about the situation. She managed not to learn anything during her journey except Jon being the king. I mean, she shows up at WF's gates and asks 'Hello, is maester Luwin here? Oh, Lady Stark? Which Lady Stark?'. Catelyn dead for 43287 seasons. Robb and his wife dead for 43287 seasons. Rickon and Bran proclaimed dead 43287 seasons ago. Jon is a Snow and the king to boot, so his wife wouldn't be titled Lady Stark. And she asks which Lady Stark. She presumably doesn't learn that much after arriving, since it's clear Sansa and Arya don't communicate and Bran is happily stoning off under a tree.

And with not knowing anything and not really having anything constructive to offer, she starts suggesting to cut Royce's head and threatening Sansa to ruin her reputation in front of the Northern lords. [not to mention that several seasons ago everyone who read this letter was all like: 'Sansa's writing, Cersei's words, dismiss'] That is just brilliant. Yes, antagonize the guy who has an actual army, that went so well for Cersei Lannister and the Tyrells, for one. Yes, ruin your sister's authority, that will help to create... um, chaos? Conflicts? A power vacuum, since Jon is not here? Aww, your big brother Jon will sure thank you, if he ever comes back, that is.

Except she is undermining Jon too. Jon who has probably had even more childhood butthurt with Sansa than Arya had. Jon who has actually spent some time in the North and with Sansa recently, learned more about her and about the situation and still chose to trust Sansa with WF during his absence. Arya just doesn't respect Jon's judgment, despite knowing that her knowledge about just everything except for the letter (and it's been established that everyone concerned dismissed it in the past and Arya herself says that Jon would probably be understanding) is inferior to Jon's. She will throw her temper tantrum around, goddamnit!

And about Littlefinger in Harrenhall? Everyone and their rottweiler knows that LF used to be an official in the Lannister regime, that's old news.

And I'm not going to go into the 'who was snooping first and why asserting that you're not defenseless when you find the evidence someone is a homicidal maniac is OK while threatening your sister to peel off her face is not' discussion. Or how someone supposed to be a ninja shouldn't be outspied by LF. Himself. Not even using any minions.

The thing is, Arya's character has undergone such ruining in this season, that I'm beyond disliking the character herself - I'm mad at the writers who created this shit (similarly as when they made Jaime rape Cersei several seasons ago). And I just hope it's going somewhere, that they know it's ridiculous and made it such on purpose. Because if they are really trying to sell it as 'in character' or 'understandable', this is just laughable.

 

That is a narrow view on her character this season. I don't get the hate shes receiving. Arya doesn't trust Sansa, not with Littlefinger in her corner like a slobbering dog. Sure, Arya could have communicated better, not gotten so aggressive, but it is what it is. It did not feel out of character to me, it made sense since I know what they've both gone through, what they've seen. They are a dysfunctional family at this point in time. Arya just learned, presumably, that Sansa choose to marry Ramsay Snow - how the fuck do you explain that to Arya. Of course she would be very suspicious of Sansa, especially with Littlefinger nearby whispering in her ear.

Arya is not a good politician, not like Sansa, so they need each other. This conflict will be resolved, and when LF's head rolls, the crowd will be cheering, and you'll have moved onto the next thing to criticize.

Arya Stark is my Assassin Queen. :) I shall defend her honor with my life :P

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18 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Arya is not a good politician, not like Sansa, so they need each other. This conflict will be resolved, and when LF's head rolls, the crowd will be cheering, and you'll have moved onto the next thing to criticize.

It's not about the conflict itself, it's about its poor quality and the toll it takes on the characters (especially Arya).

19 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

That is a narrow view on her character this season.

It's a detailed description of what's wrong with her character this season. Had I wanted to go for narrow, I'd simply state that she is being more of a Sand Snake than Arya Stark this season.

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1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

So, the OP is basically arguing that Arya is acting like a spoiled brat who hasn't overcome the resentments she had at eleven? That's... actually correct.

The thing is, Arya arrived to Winterfell three minutes ago and doesn't know shit about the situation. She managed not to learn anything during her journey except Jon being the king. I mean, she shows up at WF's gates and asks 'Hello, is maester Luwin here? Oh, Lady Stark? Which Lady Stark?'. Catelyn dead for 43287 seasons. Robb and his wife dead for 43287 seasons. Rickon and Bran proclaimed dead 43287 seasons ago. Jon is a Snow and the king to boot, so his wife wouldn't be titled Lady Stark. And she asks which Lady Stark. She presumably doesn't learn that much after arriving, since it's clear Sansa and Arya don't communicate and Bran is happily stoning off under a tree.

And with not knowing anything and not really having anything constructive to offer, she starts suggesting to cut Royce's head and threatening Sansa to ruin her reputation in front of the Northern lords. [not to mention that several seasons ago everyone who read this letter was all like: 'Sansa's writing, Cersei's words, dismiss'] That is just brilliant. Yes, antagonize the guy who has an actual army, that went so well for Cersei Lannister and the Tyrells, for one. Yes, ruin your sister's authority, that will help to create... um, chaos? Conflicts? A power vacuum, since Jon is not here? Aww, your big brother Jon will sure thank you, if he ever comes back, that is.

Except she is undermining Jon too. Jon who has probably had even more childhood butthurt with Sansa than Arya had. Jon who has actually spent some time in the North and with Sansa recently, learned more about her and about the situation and still chose to trust Sansa with WF during his absence. Arya just doesn't respect Jon's judgment, despite knowing that her knowledge about just everything except for the letter (and it's been established that everyone concerned dismissed it in the past and Arya herself says that Jon would probably be understanding) is inferior to Jon's. She will throw her temper tantrum around, goddamnit!

And about Littlefinger in Harrenhall? Everyone and their rottweiler knows that LF used to be an official in the Lannister regime, that's old news.

And I'm not going to go into the 'who was snooping first and why asserting that you're not defenseless when you find the evidence someone is a homicidal maniac is OK while threatening your sister to peel off her face is not' discussion. Or how someone supposed to be a ninja shouldn't be outspied by LF. Himself. Not even using any minions.

The thing is, Arya's character has undergone such ruining in this season, that I'm beyond disliking the character herself - I'm mad at the writers who created this shit (similarly as when they made Jaime rape Cersei several seasons ago). And I just hope it's going somewhere, that they know it's ridiculous and made it such on purpose. Because if they are really trying to sell it as 'in character' or 'understandable', this is just laughable.

 

THIS GODDAMMIT THIS.w

after reading all 4 pages, and agreeing with some disagreeing with most, i gotta say this post sums up about everything i feel about this Stark conflict, that Reeks of red erring from miles and miles again, and it is as this user said, because the writing doesnt make any fucking sense.

Arya brings up that moment in the sept of baelor, but she forgets that Sansa was fighting the guards, crying and screaming for her father's life, a hell of a lot more than she did, and she is the one guild tripping Sansa about not doing enough

the only incident with wich i can justify aryas holding a grudge its Myca's murder, and she got along pretty well and even forgave the hound, the man who killed mycah, so it is a bit stupid to bring that grudge up this far.

this whole tension on WF feels awkard and not in the good storytelling way, it feels like that exactly why it shouldnt, because it doesnt make sense.. like they say in my country, tan es asi(more to my point).. Branhattan im sure will be the one to put the situation at ease, i mean, the wrote these character into a hole so deep that they need a third one to get them out of there.. i just hope that at least it pays off

now, to the topic, as someone else said, Arya despises that fearful nature of Sansa, the fact that Sansa has acted only on fear throughout her whole storyline doesnt help either, but she definetely should dig deeper before making any accusations, at least thats what the little training she got taught her, get all the info you can before you make your move, but here, she just scratched the surface and proceded to point fingers at sansa. 

Edited by VenezuelanLord

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4 hours ago, Kizzle said:

Killing Bran would bring her a step closer to achieving her dream of becoming a queen. 

She didn't tell Jon about the knights of the Vale and she waited for it to become clear Jon's army was going to lose to swoop in and save the day. Clearly the nobles are under the perception that she was the one who won the battle which is exactly how she herself described it. That's suggest her ambition for power is still strong. She wants the lords to support her over Jon. She stopped trying to talk Jon out of leaving the moment he told her she be left in charge.

Bran certainly didn't seem too happy to see Sansa when the two were reunited and when Arya was hugging him he just glared at Sansa.

I cannot believe Arya is simply falling for one of Little Finger's little plots. She has spent too much time learning to sniff out deception. I'm betting Sansa is on Arya's list and she's provoking Sansa to get her to attack her at which point she can kill Sansa in self-defense which would be the only situation where she could kill Sansa without Brienne seeking revenge.

It has also been said that Sansa likes nice things. If she did own a dagger that's about as nice as they come.

Okay, you're just trolling now. 

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3 minutes ago, VenezuelanLord said:

THIS GODDAMMIT THIS.w

after reading all 4 pages, and agreeing with some disagreeing with most, i gotta say this post sums up about everything i feel about this Stark conflict, that Reeks of red erring from miles and miles again, and it is as this user said, because the writing doesnt make any fucking sense.

Arya brings up that moment in the sept of baelor, but she forgets that Sansa was fighting the guards, crying and screaming for her father's life, a hell of a lot more than she did, and she is the one guild tripping Sansa about not doing enough

the only incident with wich i can justify aryas holding a grudge its Myca's murder, and she got along pretty well and even forgave the hound, the man who killed mycah, so it is a bit stupid to bring that grudge up this far.

this whole tension on WF feels awkard and not in the good storytelling way, it feels like that exactly why it shouldnt, because it doesnt make sense.. like they say in my country, tan es asi(more to my point).. Branhattan im sure will be the one to put the situation at ease, i mean, the wrote these character into a hole so deep that they need a third one to get them out of there.. i just hope that at least it pays off

now, to the topic, as someone else said, Arya despises that fearful nature of Sansa, the fact that Sansa has acted only on fear throughout her whole storyline doesnt help either, but she definetely should dig deeper before making any accusations, at least thats what the little training she got taught her, get all the info you can before you make your move, but here, she just scratched the surface and proceded to point fingers at sansa. 

I don't know, man. The writing makes sense to me. I understand Arya's position, and Sansa's position. I understand what's driving Arya, and how it's clouding her decision-making. I understood all of this when watching. I understood why Arya is suspicious of Sansa, and how she could have communicated better with her sister to resolve the issues they have. This goes so much deeper than stating that she could have done this better or said that better.
Her mistrust of Sansa is clouding her judgements, I think. Say what you will, the writing made sense to me, which serves to show that our opinions on the matter are subjective, not objective. If it were objective, we'd both be agreeing on the same issues. But we're not. So, we should wait till next episode and see how the situation unfolds.

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50 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Season 2, yes. And I don't think anyone was suggesting Sansa is colluding with Cersei. She is, for all intents and purposes, however, colluding with Littlefinger, who switches sides whenever it suits him - first the Lannisters, now the Starks. I'm not sure about the mummer's show, although Arya's suggestion seems to point to the fact that Arya prefers aggression over pacifism.

I don't mean that Sansa is actually colluding with the Lannisters (either directly or via Littlefinger), only that it was suggested somewhere along the way that Arya might think that Sansa is.  If Arya thinks Cersei wants Sansa's head on the platter, it is a little bit difficult to believe that Arya would also think that Cersei and Sansa are working together (unless something has changed in the interim without it being shown on screen - see below).

 

48 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I was thinking about it too. Arya knows that the presentation is biased (for example their portrayal of Ned), but seemed to buy some of it. For example she thought Sansa killed Joffrey and she knows Cersei wants Sansa's head. She also learned about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa and probably thinks that Tyrion's was raping her. Based on this play (which, amusingly, was still one of the best updates Arya's gotten) Arya should be convinced that Sansa is totally anti-Lannister.

Yep :) So Arya possibly thinks/knows:

  • Sansa was anti-Lannister, or at least Cersei is anti-Sansa after the Purple Wedding - Arya believes this at the time of the mummer's play.
  • Cersei is anti-Tyrion - Tyrion is now Hand to Daenerys and Jon is attempting to ally with Daenerys and therefore Tyrion
  • Sansa is involved with Littlefinger in some way - either colluding or one is playing the other.
  • Sansa was raped by Tyrion - this could draw some sympathy, although the aforementioned Mercy chapter has Arya using sex as an opportunity to kill.
  • The Boltons allied with the Lannisters for the Red Wedding and were named Wardens of the North, took Winterfell as their seat.
  • Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was set aside, although apparently consummated if you believe she was raped.
  • Sansa married Ramsay, although Jon was in the Night's Watch and their other brothers were believed to be dead.
  • What is the situation between the Boltons and the Lannisters once Ramsay marries Sansa?  Does that put Sansa back on the Lannister side or the Boltons back on the Stark side?
  • Sansa is power hungry, but she also feels guilty about being power hungry.
  • Sansa is neither actively usurping Jon, nor is she actively beheading people who suggest treason.

With the information that Arya has it's hard to know what conclusions she might come to, other than to be mighty confused about the whole thing.  If she believes that Cersei is anti-Tyrion then Cersei agreeing to Sansa marrying Ramsay still makes Sansa a pawn of the Lannisters.  But she seems to believe that you always have a choice, with the first alternative to every impossible situation being to stab someone.

If she believes Sansa has agency in every situation, then marrying Ramsay was a choice (alternative number one: stab someone).  If you believe your true siblings are dead and Jon is in the Nights' Watch and unable to inherit, what do you do?  How do you get on with your life?  Surely marrying into the family that has your inheritance is a reasonable way of getting it back under Stark control?

Maybe Sansa should've fed Ramsay to the dogs a little sooner, or kept him for Arya to skewer.  Maybe telling Arya what she did to Ramsay could be a nice bonding experience.

Edited by Kleia
clarifying a badly-worded point

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23 minutes ago, Kleia said:

I don't mean that Sansa is actually colluding with the Lannisters (either directly or via Littlefinger), only that it was suggested somewhere along the way that Arya might think that Sansa is.  If Arya thinks Cersei wants Sansa's head on the platter, it is a little bit difficult to believe that Arya would also think that Cersei and Sansa are working together (unless something has changed in the interim without it being shown on screen - see below).

 

Yep :) So Arya possibly thinks/knows:

  • Sansa was anti-Lannister, or at least Cersei is anti-Sansa after the Purple Wedding - Arya believes this at the time of the mummer's play.
  • Cersei is anti-Tyrion - Tyrion is now Hand to Daenerys and Jon is attempting to ally with Daenerys and therefore Tyrion
  • Sansa is involved with Littlefinger in some way - either colluding or one is playing the other.
  • Sansa was raped by Tyrion - this could draw some sympathy, although the aforementioned Mercy chapter has Arya using sex as an opportunity to kill.
  • The Boltons allied with the Lannisters for the Red Wedding and were named Wardens of the North, took Winterfell as their seat.
  • Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was set aside, although apparently consummated if you believe she was raped.
  • Sansa married Ramsay, although Jon was in the Night's Watch and their other brothers were believed to be dead.
  • What is the situation between the Boltons and the Lannisters once Ramsay marries Sansa?  Does that put Sansa back on the Lannister side or the Boltons back on the Stark side?
  • Sansa is power hungry, but she also feels guilty about being power hungry.
  • Sansa is neither actively usurping Jon, nor is she actively beheading people who suggest treason.

With the information that Arya has it's hard to know what conclusions she might come to, other than to be mighty confused about the whole thing.  If she believes that Cersei is anti-Tyrion then Cersei agreeing to Sansa marrying Ramsay still makes Sansa a pawn of the Lannisters.  But she seems to believe that you always have a choice, with the first alternative to every impossible situation being to stab someone.

If she believes Sansa has agency in every situation, then marrying Ramsay was a choice (alternative number one: stab someone).  If you believe your true siblings are dead and Jon is in the Nights' Watch and unable to inherit, what do you do?  How do you get on with your life?  Surely marrying into the family that has your inheritance is a reasonable way of getting it back under Stark control?

Maybe Sansa should've fed Ramsay to the dogs a little sooner, or kept him for Arya to skewer.  Maybe telling Arya what she did to Ramsay could be a nice bonding experience.

I'm just waiting for the moment Littlefinger's dream falls apart, the moment Arya stands over him with a sword, a glint in her eye. I'm waiting for the moment the North learns of his treachery, how he started the War of the Five Kings. :) That will be a sweet day.

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8 hours ago, Risto said:

Yes, but the characters' reaction to the said thing does. And none of them believe what you are saying.

Something I so don't get. They can show in the show that people don't think Sansa was a traitor for the Vale thing. show they they regard her as the one who won the battle, show that even Jon says he should've listened to her and that they're standing there because of her, say about the script the only reason the Vale forces were held back was for that one moment.....yet despite all of that people still view the truth of the scene as completely different as it's confirmed to be?

Like, the characters on the show all say that Sansa won the battle. None treat her like a traitor.

So where does this "Sansa is a traitor because of the Vale forces" come from?

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9 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Sansa got the dagger from Littlefinger so she could kill Bran with it in season 1?   You mean before they even met?  

 

Sansa is actually Bran confirmed.

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24 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Something I so don't get. They can show in the show that people don't think Sansa was a traitor for the Vale thing. show they they regard her as the one who won the battle, show that even Jon says he should've listened to her and that they're standing there because of her, say about the script the only reason the Vale forces were held back was for that one moment.....yet despite all of that people still view the truth of the scene as completely different as it's confirmed to be?

Like, the characters on the show all say that Sansa won the battle. None treat her like a traitor.

So where does this "Sansa is a traitor because of the Vale forces" come from?

Because in the reality of what the show showed us happen:  Sansa knew of a huge army and failed to disclose this to her brother, all the while whining about not enough men, makes her a traitor.  It's a traitorous deceitful thing to do that should mean her brother will never trust her again for any reasons.

It is more evidence of how much the show sucks.

Just like how the Northern lords are all traitors and turncloaks except for baby Mormont.  They supported the Boltons, then they flat out refused to support Jon and Sansa when they went on their begging tour, and yet, when they all randomly decide to not only support House Stark but declar3e Jon King, the audience is supposed to be psyched about it, even though it is totally unearned and makes no sense.  

The show's dots rarely connect.  There are numerous examples of this where the show does one thing, and then refuses to have the logical outcome.  Just as the Vale lords hated and distrusted LF, then they were totally loyal to him, then he threatened Lord Royce, which would reasonably cause Royce to want him dead, and yet, Sansa claims she needs LF to keep the Vale army which is obviously in context of what the show has shown us: nonsense.  Royce would hate LF and all she would need to do is say that he sold her to the Boltons and LF would be dead and she still has the Vale army.  Jon is totally incompetent and suicidal, but still the show wishes you to see him as a hero despite what he actually does on screen.

Edited by Cas Stark

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19 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

With this weeks episode, there have been heavy criticism of Arya's characterisation and harsh interaction with Sansa. I would argue, however, that the 'falling' out between the two was a long-time coming. We have to remember that Arya saw Littlefinger with Tywin at Harrenhal. And that is the reason why she is so distrustful of Sansa at the moment, especially how Sansa seems to rely on him to keep the North in power. I mean, I would be distrustful of Littelfinger, too. And anyone who seems to associate with him in the same manner Sansa does. Perhaps people have forgotten about this fact?

There are other reasons why she is so hostile to Sansa too. The main being her memories of the younger Sansa, and how she defended Joffrey when Myca? was attacked and later murdered. That was a betrayal. She then was force to marry into the Lannister House; she managed to escape, but then chose to marry into the Bolton House, an enemy of the Stark's who played a part in the Red Wedding, the same wedding Arya almost witnessed firsthand. Sure, Sansa did suffer from that decision, but she still made the conscious choice - trusting Littlefinger backfired. But she trusted him anyway.

Sure, we can argue back and forth and write that Arya went to far, was to harsh, etc. But Arya suffered too since their separation, was forced to kill, run and hide, and became an assassin. She was losing her sense of identity, and what saved her was "Jon Snow's Smile" - book reference to when she held Needle, and could not get rid of the blade. She is trying to protect Jon Snow, House Stark, and the North from a potential threat. From what she has experienced, seen, and heard about, is it any wonder that she is so suspicious of Sansa? I'm sure Bran will intervene in next episode before something unfortunate happens, set things right, and create peace among the sisters. However, I doubt they'll ever be the traditional loving siblings. Not like her relationship with Jon, which is one of the strongest in the novels.

Am I wrong in my assessment?

Yes, you are wrong in your assessment.

1.  Sansa didn't defend Joffrey.....she gave no testimony so she couldn't have defended Joffrey

2.  Arya saw LF but had no idea what was even being discussed.  Turns out, LF had just returned Ned's remains and was plotting to free Sansa.....via proposing a different bride for Joffrey

3.  3rd paragraph is about book stuff that isn't in the show.....and Sansa suffered far more than Arya.  Who raped Arya on the show?  Which Aunt threatened to kill Arya on the show?  When did Arya get forced into a marriage with an imp?  Most of Arya's actually suffering on show was by choice......it is like saying I want to be a Navy Seal.....volunteering for seal training and then crying about how you were forced to suffer through seal training........

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6 hours ago, VenezuelanLord said:

the only incident with wich i can justify aryas holding a grudge its Myca's murder, and she got along pretty well and even forgave the hound, the man who killed mycah, so it is a bit stupid to bring that grudge up this far.

Nope, she did not forgive him, when they parted ways she left him to die a slow and painful death instead of killing him like he asked. And Sansa was not Joffrey's sworn shield nor she had to take orders from him, the Hound was. And the most important thing, the Hound wasn't there when the incident happened, Sansa was, and she knew very well that Micah wasn't responsible for anything, yet she lied to cover up the "prince charming"'s lies. The Hound might have just believed Micah was some nobody who dared to hurt the prince.

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12 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Wait... I thought Bran was Arya?

 No, Sansa is Bran and Bran is Arya, who is also the actual Jon. The Jon we see is a trick by the Night King.

 

They merged into a freakish four-man siamese twin.

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37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because in the reality of what the show showed us happen:  Sansa knew of a huge army and failed to disclose this to her brother, all the while whining about not enough men, makes her a traitor.  It's a traitorous deceitful thing to do that should mean her brother will never trust her again for any reasons.

It is more evidence of how much the show sucks.

Just like how the Northern lords are all traitors and turncloaks except for baby Mormont.  They supported the Boltons, then they flat out refused to support Jon and Sansa when they went on their begging tour, and yet, when they all randomly decide to not only support House Stark but declar3e Jon King, the audience is supposed to be psyched about it, even though it is totally unearned and makes no sense.  

The show's dots rarely connect.  There are numerous examples of this where the show does one thing, and then refuses to have the logical outcome.  Just as the Vale lords hated and distrusted LF, then they were totally loyal to him, then he threatened Lord Royce, which would reasonably cause Royce to want him dead, and yet, Sansa claims she needs LF to keep the Vale army which is obviously in context of what the show has shown us: nonsense.  Royce would hate LF and all she would need to do is say that he sold her to the Boltons and LF would be dead and she still has the Vale army.  Jon is totally incompetent and suicidal, but still the show wishes you to see him as a hero despite what he actually does on screen.

Yes, yes, and yes!

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because in the reality of what the show showed us happen:  Sansa knew of a huge army and failed to disclose this to her brother, all the while whining about not enough men, makes her a traitor.  It's a traitorous deceitful thing to do that should mean her brother will never trust her again for any reasons.

It is more evidence of how much the show sucks.

Just like how the Northern lords are all traitors and turncloaks except for baby Mormont.  They supported the Boltons, then they flat out refused to support Jon and Sansa when they went on their begging tour, and yet, when they all randomly decide to not only support House Stark but declar3e Jon King, the audience is supposed to be psyched about it, even though it is totally unearned and makes no sense.  

The show's dots rarely connect.  There are numerous examples of this where the show does one thing, and then refuses to have the logical outcome.  Just as the Vale lords hated and distrusted LF, then they were totally loyal to him, then he threatened Lord Royce, which would reasonably cause Royce to want him dead, and yet, Sansa claims she needs LF to keep the Vale army which is obviously in context of what the show has shown us: nonsense.  Royce would hate LF and all she would need to do is say that he sold her to the Boltons and LF would be dead and she still has the Vale army.  Jon is totally incompetent and suicidal, but still the show wishes you to see him as a hero despite what he actually does on screen.

I guess it just seems kind of pointless to me after a while.

There could be a million ways to show things that make us debate and think....yet when they do something they still tend to outright say what we should think.

That probably makes no sense. I'm still thinking in half Norwegian.

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2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I guess it just seems kind of pointless to me after a while.

There could be a million ways to show things that make us debate and think....yet when they do something they still tend to outright say what we should think.

That probably makes no sense. I'm still thinking in half Norwegian.

It should really not be that hard for the show to "show" what they want us to think and be consistent. 

They wanted a "surprise" last minute save for the battle at WF. A 'ta da' shocking moment, even though almost everyone already knew the Vale would ride in and save the day  So, the entire story was created to get to this point:  Vale arrives as a surprise.  Thus, instead of Sansa actually being a player and taking LF help when he offers it and then creating a battle plan [they still could have had something go wrong somehow and have a last minute save], instead she stupidly refuses his help, then she stupidly fails to tell anyone about the offer all the while blabbing about needing to retake WF and save her brother, who she also alternatively says is already dead, then she writes to ask for LF help and still tells no one.  There is no way that is anything to be proud of, that is brutal stupidity and sickening disloyalty.  But the show doesn't care.  She's a player and she saved Jon.  And since everyone keeps saying it, the audience is to be believe it.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Yes, you are wrong in your assessment.

1.  Sansa didn't defend Joffrey.....she gave no testimony so she couldn't have defended Joffrey

2.  Arya saw LF but had no idea what was even being discussed.  Turns out, LF had just returned Ned's remains and was plotting to free Sansa.....via proposing a different bride for Joffrey

3.  3rd paragraph is about book stuff that isn't in the show.....and Sansa suffered far more than Arya.  Who raped Arya on the show?  Which Aunt threatened to kill Arya on the show?  When did Arya get forced into a marriage with an imp?  Most of Arya's actually suffering on show was by choice......it is like saying I want to be a Navy Seal.....volunteering for seal training and then crying about how you were forced to suffer through seal training........

She sure as hell didn't say anything in the pavilion when asked what happened near the Trident, didn't defend Arya. So is that not Sansa defending her future 'husband'? And at that point, LF was still outwardly colluding with the Lannisters, so it makes sense Arya would be suspicious of him and therefore, Sansa since she keeps him close like a pet dog. Arya losing her identity is in the books, and in the show - it is what allows her to become No One, albeit only for a while. That's the whole point of her character arc...

Sansa and Arya have both suffered in the show, and while Sansa may have suffered more, that does not mean she gets a free pass and we should disregard Arya's point of view in their conflict. Arya's trauma is more internal than external.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

It should really not be that hard for the show to "show" what they want us to think and be consistent. 

They wanted a "surprise" last minute save for the battle at WF. A 'ta da' shocking moment, even though almost everyone already knew the Vale would ride in and save the day  So, the entire story was created to get to this point:  Vale arrives as a surprise.  Thus, instead of Sansa actually being a player and taking LF help when he offers it and then creating a battle plan [they still could have had something go wrong somehow and have a last minute save], instead she stupidly refuses his help, then she stupidly fails to tell anyone about the offer all the while blabbing about needing to retake WF and save her brother, who she also alternatively says is already dead, then she writes to ask for LF help and still tells no one.  There is no way that is anything to be proud of, that is brutal stupidity and sickening disloyalty.  But the show doesn't care.  She's a player and she saved Jon.  And since everyone keeps saying it, the audience is to be believe it.

So, then the problem is less the character and more the writing.

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