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Dawn of Fyre

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Something I so don't get. They can show in the show that people don't think Sansa was a traitor for the Vale thing. show they they regard her as the one who won the battle, show that even Jon says he should've listened to her and that they're standing there because of her, say about the script the only reason the Vale forces were held back was for that one moment.....yet despite all of that people still view the truth of the scene as completely different as it's confirmed to be?

Like, the characters on the show all say that Sansa won the battle. None treat her like a traitor.

So where does this "Sansa is a traitor because of the Vale forces" come from?

It comes from the sheer frustration that we feel, as viewers who had followed this story, and now have to endure the idiotic and almost schizophrenic  behavior of the characters, The character's reaction is completely inconsistent with what we know, not only about this, but about almost everything right now. They should do, say, and think things they don't, just because the writting is terrible. 

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52 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because in the reality of what the show showed us happen:  Sansa knew of a huge army and failed to disclose this to her brother, all the while whining about not enough men, makes her a traitor.  It's a traitorous deceitful thing to do that should mean her brother will never trust her again for any reasons.

It is more evidence of how much the show sucks.

Just like how the Northern lords are all traitors and turncloaks except for baby Mormont.  They supported the Boltons, then they flat out refused to support Jon and Sansa when they went on their begging tour, and yet, when they all randomly decide to not only support House Stark but declar3e Jon King, the audience is supposed to be psyched about it, even though it is totally unearned and makes no sense.  

The show's dots rarely connect.  There are numerous examples of this where the show does one thing, and then refuses to have the logical outcome.  Just as the Vale lords hated and distrusted LF, then they were totally loyal to him, then he threatened Lord Royce, which would reasonably cause Royce to want him dead, and yet, Sansa claims she needs LF to keep the Vale army which is obviously in context of what the show has shown us: nonsense.  Royce would hate LF and all she would need to do is say that he sold her to the Boltons and LF would be dead and she still has the Vale army.  Jon is totally incompetent and suicidal, but still the show wishes you to see him as a hero despite what he actually does on screen.

You know, if the show does 'suck' for you, does the fact you're still watching mean you're a masochist? A glutton for punishment? :P Maybe just try being less critical and more open to the plausible impossibilities that take place in the narrative. You never know, you might smile once in a while, Mr Grump. :D 

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4 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

She sure as hell didn't say anything in the pavilion when asked what happened near the Trident, didn't defend Arya. So is that not Sansa defending her future 'husband'? And at that point, LF was still outwardly colluding with the Lannisters, so it makes sense Arya would be suspicious of him and therefore, Sansa since she keeps him close like a pet dog. Arya losing her identity is in the books, and in the show - it is what allows her to become No One, albeit only for a while. That's the whole point of her character arc...

Sansa and Arya have both suffered in the show, and while Sansa may have suffered more, that does not mean she gets a free pass and we should disregard Arya's point of view in their conflict. Arya's trauma is more internal than external.

Sansa doesn't keep him close like a pet dog, though. She repeatedly vocalizes to both Bran and Arya and Jon that she doesn't trust LF, that if he gives you something there are strings attached, and that she keeps him close because she's watching him. Throughout the season most of her responses to him have been rather snarky and dismissive, IMO.

As for the Trident, either Sansa could've said Arya was telling the truth and thus call the Crown Prince a liar, thus risking her life considering that is tantamount to treason, ruining the alliance between the Crown and the Starks, and most likely being dismissed and having Mycah killed anyway (since he was killed before Sansa said anything), as well as maybe risking bodily harm to Arya (because despite the reasons Arya fought Joffrey, it's still considered treason and punishable by hand removal to hit a member of the royal family), say Joffrey was telling the truth and betray her family, or do what she actually did and claim she didn't remember or see what happened.

It's not like any of these are decent choices.

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2 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You know, if the show does 'suck' for you, does the fact you're still watching mean you're a masochist? A glutton for punishment? :P Maybe just try being less critical and more open to the plausible impossibilities that take place in the narrative. You never know, you might smile once in a while, Mr Grump. :D 

I loved the first season and a half of the Leftovers, then the show got uncomfortably wierd.  I stopped watching it, but I binge watched it to the end recently because I wanted to see how it ended.

 

It is quite possible to watch a series you have come to hate because you want to see the resolution.

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4 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

It comes from the sheer frustration that we feel, as viewers who had follow this story, and now have to endure the idiotic and almost schizophrenic  behavior of the characters, The character's reaction is completely inconsistent with what we know, not only about this, but about almost everything right now. They should do, say, and think things they don't, just because the writting is terrible. 

But then why claim that it's a personal issue in the actual characterization itself (Sansa is a traitor and a selfish power hungry bitch, etc. etc.) than it legit being an issue of shoddy writing?

I guess that's my question.

Maybe I'm just stupid. IDK.

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1 minute ago, Illiterati said:

I loved the first season and a half of the Leftovers, then the show got uncomfortably wierd.  I stopped watching it, but I binge watched it to the end recently because I wanted to see how it ended.

 

It is quite possible to watch a series you have come to hate because you want to see the resolution.

I feel for you :( I could not image hating GoT. It is the insulin I need while waiting for the next book.

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7 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I don't know, man. The writing makes sense to me. I understand Arya's position, and Sansa's position. I understand what's driving Arya, and how it's clouding her decision-making. I understood all of this when watching. I understood why Arya is suspicious of Sansa, and how she could have communicated better with her sister to resolve the issues they have. This goes so much deeper than stating that she could have done this better or said that better.
Her mistrust of Sansa is clouding her judgements, I think. Say what you will, the writing made sense to me, which serves to show that our opinions on the matter are subjective, not objective. If it were objective, we'd both be agreeing on the same issues. But we're not. So, we should wait till next episode and see how the situation unfolds.

It only makes sense if you consider Arya and Sansa as being the same age as when they were separated, having gone through but without internalizing any of their experiences.

Now, I don't envision an Arya-Sansa reunion to be heartfelt, but what the heck both Sansa's and Arya's character has been written as having progressed leaps in skill (from knowing how to make armor to beating Brienne in a fight), but never having matured. It's like D&D think what if we have Sansa and Arya have at it right after Ned's exceution. Well, yes, then this convo makes all sense from both characters' POV. And yes, show-Arya has reasons to be suspicious of show-Sansa. But both show-Arya and show-Sansa are ruined characters suffering from arrested development.

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4 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I feel for you :( I could not image hating GoT. It is the insulin I need while waiting for the next book.

I don't hate GoT.  I enjoy it.  I am saying I can understand someone else hating it but still watching it.

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5 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I feel for you :( I could not image hating GoT. It is the insulin I need while waiting for the next book.

What are you going to do when the show ends and you are still waiting?  Eh.  One more year, six more episodes and with any luck all or most of the final season will leak in the next 4-6 months.  And then, it's game over for me.  I just want to know what happens to the main characters.  I no longer care or have the patience for detailed thesis length book theories because I am pretty sure that there isn't going to be any resolution to any of it from the author.

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9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I loved the first season and a half of the Leftovers, then the show got uncomfortably wierd.  I stopped watching it, but I binge watched it to the end recently because I wanted to see how it ended.

 

It is quite possible to watch a series you have come to hate because you want to see the resolution.

I can't tell you how many sodding book series I've finished that I hated because I wanted to know how it ended

 

definitely good points

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

What are you going to do when the show ends and you are still waiting?  Eh.  One more year, six more episodes and with any luck all or most of the final season will leak in the next 4-6 months.  And then, it's game over for me.  I just want to know what happens to the main characters.  I no longer care or have the patience for detailed thesis length book theories because I am pretty sure that there isn't going to be any resolution to any of it from the author.

By that do you mean you don't think the books will be finished? 

 

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1. Sansa, would never trust anyone fully after her marriage with Ramsay. This is the reflection of what Ramsay said to her before he was fed to his dogs; "You have a part of me inside you" (or whatever that is). Sansa's character is molded by those who have been associated with her. She has bits of Cersei, Petyr and Ramsay inside her. She will try to save her ass first, then proceed to save anyone else. 

2. Arya's characterization since the 5th season has been inconsistent. We never fully got to see how her character evolved into the current state. It was filled with jumps to different states, rather than what Sansa got from the writers. 

As for the current situation one can only hope that the show runners have the balls to put some "sense" into the plot.  

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I see this thread heading down to the argument  about Sansa's choices as any other Sansa-related thread.

Before it happens I put my 2 cents. If Arya is such a great spy, no one, master of faces etc. as they try to portrait her, she wouldn't have turned in WF as Arya Stark, but disguised as someone else to check out the situation.  All her previous actions like Freycide required a lot of restraint and waiting for the right moment to strike but now she behaves like Arya in s1. Shame that she didn't start throwing food in Sansa.

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3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Sansa doesn't keep him close like a pet dog, though. She repeatedly vocalizes to both Bran and Arya and Jon that she doesn't trust LF, that if he gives you something there are strings attached, and that she keeps him close because she's watching him. Throughout the season most of her responses to him have been rather snarky and dismissive, IMO.

As for the Trident, either Sansa could've said Arya was telling the truth and thus call the Crown Prince a liar, thus risking her life considering that is tantamount to treason, ruining the alliance between the Crown and the Starks, and most likely being dismissed and having Mycah killed anyway (since he was killed before Sansa said anything), as well as maybe risking bodily harm to Arya (because despite the reasons Arya fought Joffrey, it's still considered treason and punishable by hand removal to hit a member of the royal family), say Joffrey was telling the truth and betray her family, or do what she actually did and claim she didn't remember or see what happened.

It's not like any of these are decent choices.

I know, but Arya can't rationalize that because she is too emotionally invested in what's she experienced. I can't see a scenario where Arya nd Sansa become BFF from the moment they reunite. The writers could have written them in different ways, but this is what we got, and I'm alright with that. People in these comments are stating how viewers are feeling sheer frustration at the plot, etc., and that is only true for the minority whp are vocal in these forums, not majority - and the minority's voice won't be heard, sad to say - I'm confidant that legitimate constructive criticism will be taken into account when they finalize the season 8 script. I'm one of the hugest Asoiaf fans in the community, and I always knew the Show would diverge from the books - there was no other option since they could not include every character and plot. I've watched every episode, and loved them all. Some people haven't, and that's alright. But the sheer amount of hate the show is getting is tiresome, and not wholly objective.

I can rationalize the current events taking place in Winterfell. Arya's character did not feel out of character. And I would know... since she is my favorite. Why can't we just all get along? :(

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11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It only makes sense if you consider Arya and Sansa as being the same age as when they were separated, having gone through but without internalizing any of their experiences.

Now, I don't envision an Arya-Sansa reunion to be heartfelt, but what the heck both Sansa's and Arya's character has been written as having progressed leaps in skill (from knowing how to make armor to beating Brienne in a fight), but never having matured. It's like D&D think what if we have Sansa and Arya have at it right after Ned's exceution. Well, yes, then this convo makes all sense from both characters' POV. And yes, show-Arya has reasons to be suspicious of show-Sansa. But both show-Arya and show-Sansa are ruined characters suffering from arrested development.

Perhaps, but I still enjoy the narrative in Winterfell for what it is.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

3rd paragraph is about book stuff that isn't in the show.....and Sansa suffered far more than Arya.  Who raped Arya on the show?  Which Aunt threatened to kill Arya on the show?  When did Arya get forced into a marriage with an imp?  Most of Arya's actually suffering on show was by choice......it is like saying I want to be a Navy Seal.....volunteering for seal training and then crying about how you were forced to suffer through seal training........

I don't recall Sansa being stabbed several times in the gut, being chased all over town bleeding out and having to fight the Terminator. And Sansa did choose to marry Ramsay, voluntarily. She went willingly to her wedding night and expected to give up her maidenhead and have his babies. She had not expected him to physically abuse her while doing that. My point: Arya didn't choose to be stabbed in the gut several times or be beaten with a stick while blind and Sansa didn't choose to be raped. Though both voluntarily chose to get into a situation that one can expect to go very wrong.

In any case, it's not a competition and it evens out. It's one of the things that I did like of both Jon's and Arya's portrayal this season. They did not compete and stayed absolutely mum of what they survived.

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3 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I see this thread heading down to the argument  about Sansa's choices as any other Sansa-related thread.

Before it happens I put my 2 cents. If Arya is such a great spy, no one, master of faces etc. as they try to portrait her, she wouldn't have turned in WF as Arya Stark, but disguised as someone else to check out the situation.  All her previous actions like Freycide required a lot of restraint and waiting for the right moment to strike but now she behaves like Arya in s1. Shame that she didn't start throwing food in Sansa.

We should not fall into the trap of 'realism' in terms if what she could have done. This is a show that is currently lacking source material, and they need the drama at Winterfell to stretch through the season. Different writers would have written different scenarios. These writers wrote this and I'm alright with it.

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3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Perhaps, but I still enjoy the narrative in Winterfell for what it is.

I'm enjoying Maisie's acting: her channeling of Tywin, Jaquen and the Hound and the waif. That is what we've been seeing since S6 @IceIceBaby : Maisie playing a mix of these three men she hang out with. When she confronts Sansa with the letter she 's pretty much using similar arguments as the Hound: fear or anger. She doesn't tolerate even a whiff of scheming for yourself against family like Tywin. And she walks and smirks like Jaquen. She threatens like the waif. Except it's not what I would call a development of character. Arya shouldn't be channeling people she knew. She should be a more developed self who has internalized those three. So, good impersonations by Maisie, but bad character writing.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm enjoying Maisie's acting: her channeling of Tywin, Jaquen and the Hound and the waif. That is what we've been seeing since S6 @IceIceBaby : Maisie playing a mix of these three men she hang out with. When she confronts Sansa with the letter she 's pretty much using similar arguments as the Hound: fear or anger. She doesn't tolerate even a whiff of scheming for yourself against family like Tywin. And she walks and smirks like Jaquen. She threatens like the waif. Except it's not what I would call a development of character. Arya shouldn't be channeling people she knew. She should be a more developed self who has internalized those three. So, good impersonations by Maisie, but bad character writing.

Yup, great work by Maisie but bad writing. This is why I'm hating on the writers on wasting the potential Arya's character has. 

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

By that do you mean you don't think the books will be finished? 

 

Let's just say that if they ever are finished, the eventual US President that congratulates GRRM isn't out of college yet.

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