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Dawn of Fyre

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

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6 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

:blink::wacko: Sure, just look at all these threads praising this excellence, here, on other forums, even on Youtube channels  and their "show pleb"…

There's a lot of haters and they are loud.

For every one person bashing the show there are 100 praising it.

Most pirated show in history......highest ratings for HBO in forever......

The show is beloved.

There's always a group of haters.  I've been on that side before too.

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Arya loves her sister. I've been saying this a lot and don't think she ever intends to harm Sansa. What Arya is doing in out of character even for her, so it might be a trick or some way of getting at the spy Littlefinger. I don't disagree with what Arya did to the Freys. These people wrongfully slaughtered her family and allies, and also Greywind the direwolf. The Freys mistreated the bodies of Catelyn and Robb (they stuck the decapitated head of the wolf on Robb's body.) The Freys were a sick bunch of people (in the books they come across as less than human and especially Walder Frey, who is horrible and looks like a demonic entity in the books).

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8 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

For every one person bashing the show there are 100 praising it.

Most pirated show in history......highest ratings for HBO in forever......

That's because "dragons and tits", not because of the quality of writing… The show is now aimed at people who have no idea what "writing" means.

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5 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

That's because "dragons and tits", not because of the quality of writing… The show is now aimed at people who have no idea what "writing" means.

My favorite parts aren't the dragons and teets but I can concede it gets a big boost from those things.

The writing has been really good though.  This season hasn't had the best dialog though, I'd agree.

But, overall, the show has excellent writing imo.

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2 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Aren't you leaving out that the first words from Arya to Sansa were sorta a veiled shot.....with the veil being removed as the interactions progressed throughout the season?

Didn't Littlefinger bring the Starks back home to Winterfell?  Didn't Littlefinger help kill Joffrey Lannister?  Hasn't Litttlefinger been betraying the Lannisters since the first season?  I understand, Arya doesn't know any of this.  All she is carrying around is seeing LF meet the Tywin and she hates him for it.  

It is super immature.  I don't like it either but that that is the way they have written Arya.  It's been awful to watch her be like this since she got to WF.  But, let's be frank.....there's no real justification for it.  Arya is using a jump to conclusions mat based on no information really. 

She doesn't ask any questions really.  She doesn't want answers from Sansa.  She hasn't accepted any answer.  She asked why LF is there and she was told.  We need his men.  This is the adult, reasonable answer......Arya apparently takes it as a sign that Sansa is betraying Jon?  Didn't LF just rescue Jon?  I mean, we all know that LF tried to turn Sansa from Jon and has failed over and over again.....being clearly rebuked and belittled by Sansa.

Arya doesn't know this apparently.  She apparently thinks Sansa is plotting with LF to overthrow Jon....which is just her being wrong and nothing more at this point.  It is hard to watch.

We all know that Arya hates Sansa.  That's been made abundently clear on the show since S1.  That's the exact reason why she is being hateful to Sansa.  It has nothing to do with Sansa showing signs of betraying Jon.  It has nothing to do with anything Sansa has done really.  Arya hates Sansa for being Sansa......a Lady.....not a fighter.....who likes castles and princes and nice things......

It makes me want to roll my eyes every time she attacks Sansa because Sansa is not weak and stupid and only wanting things for herself.  We, the audience know this.......Arya just doesn't.  

Weren't the Bolton's named Warden's of the North by the Lannisters.  Maybe it is a reading problem for you.  I said that she got rid of the people appointed by the Lannisters.  I didn't say anything about the Bolton's being Lannisters.  Come on man. 

You can't determine if a person is being honest if you don't talk to them.  Arya has prejudged Sansa.  That is the storyline so far this season with Arya/Sansa.  The entire sequence and story in show is that Arya has come home and is mad at Sansa for Sansa being Sansa......and she still thinks Sansa is the same 14 year old girl she was.  Once again, I don't like it either and I wish Arya wasn't doing it but that's what we've been given.

No, it isn't the Arya we've been given. Its YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Arya on screen and it would be nice if you stopped passing off your version of events as factual. In my opinion, your interpretation of Arya this season is so far off the mark it isn't funny.

Arya isn't mad at Sansa for being Sansa and certainly in season 1, was never ever shown as hating Sansa as you claim or being 'hateful' towards her. 

Arya was angry as all hell at Sansa at one point in season 1, yes, but that anger was warranted and Sansa deserved every bit of it. 

There is a big difference between sisters not being close (which Sansa and Arya weren't) and absolutely despising each other (which they didn't). 

And as for this season, Arya isn't hating Sansa for being Sansa at all. She has changed and doesn't fully trust Sansa, but you have made Arya's actions out to be far more hateful than Im sure even the writers intended them to be. As for the wearing Sansa's face threat, there was more to that. She was telling Sansa that she was on her side by handing her the dagger hilt first.

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1 minute ago, Gaz0680 said:

No, it isn't the Arya we've been given. Its YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Arya on screen and it would be nice if you stopped passing off your version of events as factual. In my opinion, your interpretation of Arya this season is so far off the mark it isn't funny.

Arya isn't mad at Sansa for being Sansa and certainly in season 1, was never ever shown as hating Sansa as you claim or being 'hateful' towards her. 

Arya was angry as all hell at Sansa at one point in season 1, yes, but that anger was warranted and Sansa deserved every bit of it. 

There is a big difference between sisters not being close (which Sansa and Arya weren't) and absolutely despising each other (which they didn't). 

We've been through this.

I've said repeatedly that Arya doesn't hate Sansa.  She doesn't like Sansa.

They aren't close and Arya doesn't much like Sansa.

The finale is a few days away.  We are going to see the resolution very soon.

I'll give my opinions and I won't place a qualifier in front of every post.

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44 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

There's a lot of haters and they are loud.

For every one person bashing the show there are 100 praising it.

Most pirated show in history......highest ratings for HBO in forever......

The show is beloved.

There's always a group of haters.  I've been on that side before too.

Thats true.

However, you don't have to hate something to recognise the flaws in it.

What is popular isn't always whats good. If anything, as the popularity of GoT has increased, the quality of the writing and storytelling has markedly decreased, yet quality of special effects has increased.

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It's the worst part of the show and that is saying something!

It feels like the whole sibling rivalry/distrust story line was created just so they had something to do with the Starks/Winterfell while Jon was off dealing with Cersei/Dany/WWs.

I'd honestly rather we saw Arya fighting Brienne, Sansa stood watching from above smiling, Bran sat laughing in his chair nearby while LF Creepily walked around pissed off that all the Stark children and followers were in such high spirits and unable to be broken.... every scene lasting just a minute to show us... all is well in Winterfell while Jon is gone... so more time focused on the second shittest storyline ongoing.

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14 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Thats true.

However, you don't have to hate something to recognise the flaws in it.

What is popular isn't always whats good. If anything, as the popularity of GoT has increased, the quality of the writing and storytelling has markedly decreased, yet quality of special effects has increased.

Our bias nature inform our feelings on the matter, tbh. Since I love Arya in the show, and love her even more in the books, she never actually felt out of character for me. The reason being that the bond she shares with Jon Snow in the novels are so strong that I can "interpret' the conflict between her and Sansa in the show as being Arya defending Jon Snow from this young women who might or might not harbor nefarious intentions.

I guess, for some people, who perhaps strictly watch the show, the conflict seems nonsensical, not when they are home and together. Sisters who've been separated for years should be happy and peaceful in each other's company. For me, it's not so much bad writing as anticipation for the resolution. Will the plot be resolved in way that makes sense? Will viewers, once watching episode 7, nod their heads and understand why they were fighting in the first place?

Either way, I personally enjoy the show for what it is, an adaption. :D I leave all that critical harsh criticism to others, so that I may enjoy what is produced. So I guess I'm hella guilty of giving the benefit of the doubt to the writers and producers of the show. :P

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

That's because "dragons and tits", not because of the quality of writing… The show is now aimed at people who have no idea what "writing" means.

I read this as 'dragons with tits' and got very very confused 

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1 hour ago, Wolfgirly said:

Arya loves her sister. I've been saying this a lot and don't think she ever intends to harm Sansa. What Arya is doing in out of character even for her, so it might be a trick or some way of getting at the spy Littlefinger. I don't disagree with what Arya did to the Freys. These people wrongfully slaughtered her family and allies, and also Greywind the direwolf. The Freys mistreated the bodies of Catelyn and Robb (they stuck the decapitated head of the wolf on Robb's body.) The Freys were a sick bunch of people (in the books they come across as less than human and especially Walder Frey, who is horrible and looks like a demonic entity in the books).

You could argue that the Frey women and children didn't really play much of an active role, if any.

I actually wonder if Arya killed mainly the fighting men or just indescriminately killed everyone with the Frey last night. We pretty much only see  men at the feast. She did spare Walder's newest wife, but I'm not sure if it was due to her being an innocent or just Arya needing someone to pass on the message.

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I think for me it's different. The Winterfell plotline doesn't make me anticipate a solution because I care about the Plotline, but because I just want the plotline to be over.


Versus, say, I anticipated Cersei's Faith Militant plotline because I was anxious to see what happened, or Arya's Braavos plotline because I wanted to know what happened or Sansa's plotline in Season 6 or Jon in Season 3, etc. etc.

 

I'm anticipating the resolution of the Winterfell plot, not because I'm on the edge of my seat wanting more, but because I just want it to be over now. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I read this as 'dragons with tits' and got very very confused 

I'm sure if you google image search for "dragons with tits" you will get plenty of results. (I'm not going to check because I don't want plenty of results.) For some reason, people have been always obsessed with reptiles with tits, from Vedic India all the way up to the Eleventh Doctor's friend Madame Vastra. It seems to kind of miss the point of being mammals instead of reptiles, but then I guess most penises aren't big on cladistic taxonomy.

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13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm sure if you google image search for "dragons with tits" you will get plenty of results. (I'm not going to check because I don't want plenty of results.) For some reason, people have been always obsessed with reptiles with tits, from Vedic India all the way up to the Eleventh Doctor's friend Madame Vastra. It seems to kind of miss the point of being mammals instead of reptiles, but then I guess most penises aren't big on cladistic taxonomy.

There's a whole heap of dinosaur erotica on Amazon where dino penises and tits are abound.

I read one once on a dare.

Never again.

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12 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Thats true.

However, you don't have to hate something to recognise the flaws in it.

What is popular isn't always whats good. If anything, as the popularity of GoT has increased, the quality of the writing and storytelling has markedly decreased, yet quality of special effects has increased.

Every fandom has a big part of fans who experience the fandom through negativity.

From sports teams to politics to television to video games.........it is the nature of a certain segment of people to be fans by being critical of every little thing.

It is just wired into some people.

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23 hours ago, Kytheros said:

 

On the one hand, you've got a point. On the other hand, your case would be a helluva lot stronger if there weren't a pre-existing pattern of poor writing in the show.

 

I would propose that "poor writing" is a subjective term that really has no merit in justification without giving example(s) which provide sufficient support for the claim - otherwise it's just a value claim which really says nothing. Take your favorite story (perhaps S0IaF) and there are swaths of people out there who would claim the entire thing is "bad writing" so does the claim make it the case? Is everything you like (books, music, movies) actually "bad writing/music/cinema" since people out there make that claim?

I'm a person who will be critical, and don't shy away from it; but I really see nothing in this series I would criticize as "poor writing"; I actually look at it and think it's rather good writing. Again I would bring up the possibility that there are two potential 'conclusions'

1. Bad writing

2. Writing that is going over the head of some (this is not meaning to say they are not intelligent, or, meant as a negative; this show contains so much information that it is easy for people to forget things, not notice details, not realize subtle things at play. I think this interaction between Arya and Sansa is a good example of that.

What I'm meaning is that, when given the option of "bad writing" vs. "I'm missing something" the latter is usually the case, though a lot of people will immediately conclude the former without real justification for doing so. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a movie and thought "that scene made no sense" and then watching it a second time noticed something (or, had someone in a discussion point something out to me) that completely brought the scene into realization, and suddenly I understood that it made perfect sense. This is generally why I'm really hesitant to pass judgment until I've thoroughly explored the information - my initial conclusion (knowing how prone we are to misunderstanding, etc.) is that "I must be missing something" and "bad writing" is always the final conclusion after I've exhausted all other avenues of possibility.

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1 minute ago, John Meta said:

 

 

I would propose that "poor writing" is a subjective term that really has no merit in justification without giving example(s) which provide sufficient support for the claim - otherwise it's just a value claim which really says nothing. Take your favorite story (perhaps S0IaF) and there are swaths of people out there who would claim the entire thing is "bad writing" so does the claim make it the case? Is everything you like (books, music, movies) actually "bad writing/music/cinema" since people out there make that claim?

I'm a person who will be critical, and don't shy away from it; but I really see nothing in this series I would criticize as "poor writing"; I actually look at it and think it's rather good writing. Again I would bring up the possibility that there are two potential 'conclusions'

1. Bad writing

2. Writing that is going over the head of some (this is not meaning to say they are not intelligent, or, meant as a negative; this show contains so much information that it is easy for people to forget things, not notice details, not realize subtle things at play. I think this interaction between Arya and Sansa is a good example of that.

What I'm meaning is that, when given the option of "bad writing" vs. "I'm missing something" the latter is usually the case, though a lot of people will immediately conclude the former without real justification for doing so. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a movie and thought "that scene made no sense" and then watching it a second time noticed something (or, had someone in a discussion point something out to me) that completely brought the scene into realization, and suddenly I understood that it made perfect sense. This is generally why I'm really hesitant to pass judgment until I've thoroughly explored the information - my initial conclusion (knowing how prone we are to misunderstanding, etc.) is that "I must be missing something" and "bad writing" is always the final conclusion after I've exhausted all other avenues of possibility.

I thought HoB&W was brilliant writing, until all the injury and suffering Arya supposedly endured somehow un-happened.  

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20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Aren't you leaving out that the first words from Arya to Sansa were sorta a veiled shot.....with the veil being removed as the interactions progressed throughout the season?

I don't think I'm leaving that out. To be clear, I agree that Arya is not acting like a seasoned diplomat. If she did, that wouldn't be consistent with her character. When I say she is acting appropriately, I am meaning, appropriate to who she is right now. I'm not saying, she is a model of diplomatic etiquette and protocol, I'm saying her actions are an appropriate extension of her character.

Arya is acting with anger, Sansa with fear. The big difference in this is that now their antagonist is someone they do care about. After seeing them interact with antagonists they don't care about and how they handle that, now we see the tension increase as they have to struggle with their past as sisters, and their present; and the journeys both have made to bring them back to the state of rivalry.

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Didn't Littlefinger bring the Starks back home to Winterfell?  Didn't Littlefinger help kill Joffrey Lannister?  Hasn't Litttlefinger been betraying the Lannisters since the first season?  I understand, Arya doesn't know any of this.  All she is carrying around is seeing LF meet the Tywin and she hates him for it.  

Right, Arya doesn't know any of this. All she knows is that Littlefinger the Lannister conspirator who plotted to kill her other brother, is now aiding Sansa. That Jon has been drawn away South (where Starks go to be betrayed and murdered), that Sansa has taken his place, that the northern lords (save Lyanna) are turning on Jon, that Sansa is suprised Arya is at Winterfell, that Sansa is (apparently) hiding messages which declare her loyalty to the Lannisters, that every time Arya tries to read Sansa in conversation, Sansa immediately becomes defensive. That Sansa claims people do unfortunate things when they are afraid.

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

It is super immature.  I don't like it either but that that is the way they have written Arya.  It's been awful to watch her be like this since she got to WF.  But, let's be frank.....there's no real justification for it.  Arya is using a jump to conclusions mat based on no information really. 

All of the above justifies Arya's suspicion of a potential Lannister conspiracy in her home.

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

She doesn't ask any questions really.  She doesn't want answers from Sansa.  She hasn't accepted any answer.  She asked why LF is there and she was told.  We need his men.  This is the adult, reasonable answer......Arya apparently takes it as a sign that Sansa is betraying Jon?  Didn't LF just rescue Jon?  I mean, we all know that LF tried to turn Sansa from Jon and has failed over and over again.....being clearly rebuked and belittled by Sansa.

Saying "we need Littlefinger's men" is an answer. All traitors will have answers. It doesn't ease suspicion when you don't know what is a lie and what isn't. All Arya knows is the facts. Sansa's "answers" aren't facts; they are answers which may or may not be lies.

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Arya doesn't know this apparently.  She apparently thinks Sansa is plotting with LF to overthrow Jon....which is just her being wrong and nothing more at this point.  It is hard to watch.

It is not her being "wrong" it is her coming to a conclusion based on the information; her being "highly suspicious": innocent people can be suspects when circumstantial evidence provides suspicion. This happens all of the time.

 

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Weren't the Bolton's named Warden's of the North by the Lannisters.  Maybe it is a reading problem for you.  I said that she got rid of the people appointed by the Lannisters.  I didn't say anything about the Bolton's being Lannisters.  Come on man. 

Arya doesn't know this. That is a problem, people seem to think Arya knows what the audience knows, but she doesn't.

20 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

You can't determine if a person is being honest if you don't talk to them.  Arya has prejudged Sansa.  That is the storyline so far this season with Arya/Sansa.  The entire sequence and story in show is that Arya has come home and is mad at Sansa for Sansa being Sansa......and she still thinks Sansa is the same 14 year old girl she was.  Once again, I don't like it either and I wish Arya wasn't doing it but that's what we've been given.

And you can't determine if a person is being honest by talking to them, unless you have facts which can corroborate their answers, showing they are being truthful. Arya does not have these facts, and so talking with Sansa would be like talking with Littlefinger. It would not alleviate suspicion whatsoever.

 

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35 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I thought HoB&W was brilliant writing, until all the injury and suffering Arya supposedly endured somehow un-happened.  

I don't understand what you mean by that; can you elaborate? Are you meaning when she got stabbed in Braavos?

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Just now, John Meta said:

I don't understand what you mean by that; can you elaborate? Are you meaning when she got stabbed in Braavos?

Yes, when she got stabbed in Braavos, running through the streets and fighting at 100%, and also everything was set up for Waif to take Arya's identity, and if it happened, it's the best kept secret D&D ever had.  Perhaps the only secret.  Nope, we got set up for a massive plot twist, and what we got was a B grade kung fu movie scene.

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