Jon's poor battle record

[Haskelltier]

Quote

How about not even bringing a horse to eastwatch?

Or, since he got a raven saying Bran was a greenseer that saw the night king's army (the maesters clearly establish that), why hasn't he stopped by winterfell and asked for his help? Even had an opportunity to see both his brother and sister whom he thought were dead.

Because the Lord of Light demands it!

Oh, sorry, wrong line, I mean, because the plot demands it!

Quote

Now, we have to decide if we take the character as currently designed by D&D or as it should be.

I think this can be extended to a lot of characters. Tyrion's "clever plots" are rather bad. Jaime charging a dragon is the action of a madman. Jaime diving like a fish in full plate to not get caught. Arya and Sansas talks and behavior in Winterfell and so on. That's all bad storytelling and it's only done to get exiting scenes and shocking moments, while the main characters and the viewer's favorites wear thick plot armor.

[3sm1r]

6 minutes ago, Holly Macaroni said:

How about not even bringing a horse to eastwatch?

Or, since he got a raven saying Bran was a greenseer that saw the night king's army (the maesters clearly establish that), why hasn't he stopped by winterfell and asked for his help? Even had an opportunity to see both his brother and sister whom he thought were dead.

Both the questions are very legitimate. In particular, since they give the impression that they don't know what to do with Bran, I'd say that it was really the right moment to use him.
For the second question someone could answer that if you go by boat Winterfell is not on the road. But that raises another question: since they had time pressure, why didn't they travel with the dragon from the beginning?

[LokisRaider]

10 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

- Castle Black - Did he lose this? He still had the wall. The gate was secure. Sure he was outnumbered, but I do not remember the Wildlings about to break through and take control. Jon was at a parley meeting when Stannis happened to attack. And he did win the battle that took place when the Thenns attacked Castle Black from the South.

- Winterfell - Ramsay did not out maneuver him in the slightest. He had superior troops that in show were just allowed to slowly surround Jon and his troop for the sole purpose of dramatic TV. And whose to say Jon's strategy would not have been different/better if he was aware of a fresh army just sitting waiting for the go word?

- Beyond the Wall - The plan was never to go to battle with the entire undead army with 7 heroes and 3-6 red shirts. It was never supposed to be a battle it was supposed to be grab a wight and run. If you want to say this was a stupid plan from the get go that Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, Jon, Davos, Gendry, The Hound, Beric, Tourmund, or Thoros should have said or thought of then I'd agree there.

- Hardhome - Did not go there expecting a battle. He went there with a small group of men to try and persuade the wildlings to join them instead of becoming part of the WW's army. Then they happened to be attacked, and had to defend the fleeing wildlings while not dying. Their only goal there was to help which turned into retreat with as few of casualties as possible as soon as the WW's showed up.

[Marlom]

Quote

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 

Jon didn't lost. He hold the wall and did much greater job than Allister Thorne or Janos Slynt.

Maybe you can call it a tie because Mance and Jon knew they will loose both sooner or later.

Quote

• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.

That's true. He lost the battle an acted confused.

Quote

Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

They didn't go beyond the wall to fight against the hole zombie armee. So this wasn't a battle like Castle Black oder Battle of Bastards.

The same with Hardhome. The went there to rescue the free folk and not to battle the armee of dead.

[bb1180]

Hardly surprising,  considering that the closest thing to even odds he's ever faced has been the Battle of the Bastards,  where his forces were still outnumbered 2-1 or more.  That's the only one I can criticize him for,  but their chances were poor at best regardless. 

[Danny-]

Jon has only fought in one battle and that's the battle of winterfell.

the others were not battles.

and you didn't mention the attack on craster's keep to kill the mutineers.

[plastic throne]

8 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

- Winterfell - Ramsay did not out maneuver him in the slightest. He had superior troops that in show were just allowed to slowly surround Jon and his troop for the sole purpose of dramatic TV. And whose to say Jon's strategy would not have been different/better if he was aware of a fresh army just sitting waiting for the go word?

So because the writers wanted to create drama we're to turn a blind eye that it was ultimately him who f*cked up the battle, discard the battle plans they agreed upon the night before? Can you imagine what effect would it have on you when your general solo charging the enemy like an idiot and saying "leeeeeeeeeroooy jenkins"? Right, you'd throw your weapons on the ground, turn around and say "what an idiot". Also, Ramsey did out maneuver him, he actually played Jon like a little child. How do I know this? His plans (though pretty sci-fi like creating a 10meters high wall of bodies on which other ppl climb to get shot at) for the battle worked 100%, Jon's did not.

Also, history is FULL of battles won by inferior side. FULL; for example, their (Jon, Davos,..) initial battle plans were very similar to the one's of Hannibal Barca in the battle of Cannae. The center was suppose to fall back slowly, giving Ramsey's side a feeling they're winning and pressure on. With their flanks standing ground until commanded otherwise and press on, they'd slowly have them surrounded and surround them with less men!! Slaughterhouse would follow.

This was suppose to happen; the bolded text is an example how ramsey's numbers don't meant sh*t; because they can't fight/help their comrades, only those on the outside of formation can, so it is 2v1 in favor of Jon (outer circle is bigger than the inner one).

They wouldn't even need Vale's cavalry.

 

_hidden in the forest or the backline_                                                _reserves come closing in to surround_

                                        ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

                                  ______       ooooooooooooooooooooo           ______

                                           _______    ramsey's army   _________

                                                            _____________

[Lord Okra]

11 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

This is some pretty harsh criticism and it is mostly unjustified imo.

Castle Black.....They were outnumbered 100-1 and Jon did lead them to victory that first battle.  He rallied the NW and they held off the wildling army against incredible odds.  Yes, he would have lost round 2 but that didn't happen.  He also showed his fearlessness by going to attempt to assassinate Mance.  His performance at this battle secured a leadership position in the NW for him.

Winterfell......once again, Jon is facing incredibly unfavorable odds vs a vastly superior force. 

Beyond the wall.....this wasn't even a battle.  It was him being trapped by an army without an army of his own.

Jon is good at many things.  He may not be the best general in Westeros but he is a fearless commander whom his men trust and follow.....even when facing impossible odds.

[plastic throne]

Just now, Lord Okra said:

Winterfell......once again, Jon is facing incredibly unfavorable odds vs a vastly superior force.

How convenient.

I have no idea why do people need to fight wars (or did in past). After all, they could just count themselves, amirite? The side with biggest number wins. Also, just one post above yours, you have everything explained in detail - how did Jon f*ck it up. Not to mention his inability to utilize an incredible weapon for both actual and psychological warfare - a giant.

Oh, and I don't care if show runners wanted TV drama; they made him this way and it is done - I can't ignore it.

[Stormourne]

4 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

How convenient.

I have no idea why do people need to fight wars (or did in past). After all, they could just count themselves, amirite? The side with biggest number wins. Also, just one post above yours, you have everything explained in detail - how did Jon f*ck it up. Not to mention his inability to utilize an incredible weapon for both actual and psychological warfare - a giant.

Oh, and I don't care if show runners wanted TV drama; they made him this way and it is done - I can't ignore it.

Sure as fuck wasn't convenient for Jon Targaryen.

[Lord Okra]

8 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

How convenient.

I have no idea why do people need to fight wars (or did in past). After all, they could just count themselves, amirite? The side with biggest number wins. Also, just one post above yours, you have everything explained in detail - how did Jon f*ck it up. Not to mention his inability to utilize an incredible weapon for both actual and psychological warfare - a giant.

Oh, and I don't care if show runners wanted TV drama; they made him this way and it is done - I can't ignore it.

You can dislike the hero of the story if you want.

I don't care.

Hate on the hero.

 

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Sorry I disagree, every one of those battles should have been an absolute ass whooping and he shouldn't have made it out of any, and here he is.  The fact that he held castle black for as long as he did is a testament because Tormund and Magnar and company breached the South side of Castle Black, the battle of the bastards he fucked up badly and let his love for his brother cloud his judgment.  We do not know what would have happened had he stuck to the plan, the plan was sound.  Hardhomme, making it out alive is another testament.  Beyond the wall, again I mean it's 9 vs thousands, what do you expect.  

 

The only real thing we can point to is the Battle of the Bastards and you could make the case that he is a terrible commander based on that battle because he let his own emotions get the better of him and he diverted from the plan.  If that was your argument I really wouldn't have a rebuttal.  

Lets not forget he also lead the raid at Kraster's and won with low casualties.  

[plastic throne]

Nope, how convenient that both of you showed up with some BS excuse to defend probably the most obscure battle in history of film. The amount of how apologetic the "blinded by the show" fans can getis just beyond me...

Battle of the Bastards was a disaster in both portraying Jon as a leader/commander/character as well as the actual course of the battle itself. Which was on pair with anime genre. B rated anime movie. If you two can't see that; there's no help for any of ya. Focus fire section of the battlefield to create a 10metres high wall of dead bodies (with people constantly climbing on top of it just to help executing Ramsey's plans) with which you entrap your enemy while he just stands there, totally oblivious? Haha, sure. Also, great leadership, especially with that solo charge. Gimme a break.

Wanna know who the real fans of the show are? Those who criticize it, those same people want it to succeed, not just for the short term (like everything in popular culture) but becoming a classic like a Sopranos. Sadly, we're far beyond the point of salvation, thanks to people unable of critical thinking.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

3 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Nope, how convenient that both of you showed up with some BS excuse to defend probably the most obscure battle in history of film. The amount of how apologetic the "blinded by the show" fans can getis just beyond me...

Battle of the Bastards was a disaster in both portraying Jon as a leader/commander/character as well as the actual course of the battle itself. Which was on pair with anime genre. B rated anime movie. If you two can't see that; there's no help for any of ya. Focus fire section of the battlefield to create a 10metres high wall of dead bodies (with people constantly climbing on top of it just to help executing Ramsey's plans) with which you entrap your enemy while he just stands there, totally oblivious? Haha, sure. Also, great leadership, especially with that solo charge. Gimme a break.

Wanna know who the real fans of the show are? Those who criticize it, those same people want it to succeed, not just for the short term (like everything in popular culture) but becoming a classic like a Sopranos. Sadly, we're far beyond the point of salvation, thanks to people who are unable of critical thinking.

That wasn't the plan though.  I agree that he made an extremely terrible decision by charging at Ramsay after Rickon was killed, but had they stuck to their original plan we have no idea how it would have turned out.  Based on his completely mental decision to charge however I would say yes he is a bad battle commander.  He is also brave on the border of stupid, and honorable.  He has made good decisions though at times.  

[ERRI8013]

4 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

(...) we're far beyond the point of salvation (...)

Watching this show, for me, is like eating the tomaccoes of Homer Simpsons.

I hate it, but I have to eat it... I just hope that Martin is taking so long to avoid this crap and in the end we will get a decent road to finale for ASOIAF.

[plastic throne]

Just now, ERRI8013 said:

Watching this show, for me, is like eating the tomaccoes of Homer Simpsons.

I hate it, but I have to eat it... I just hope that Martin is taking so long to avoid this crap and in the end we will get a decent road to finale for ASOIAF.

Same my friend, same.

Just now, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

He has made good decisions though at times.  

First, let me tell you that rant of mine wasn't directed at you but other two before you. You posted just between me typing it.

Anyways, onto the point - name some - good battle related decisions. Note I'm not saying he's a bad guy, quite the contrary but this "must have drama at all costs" thing is what killed his character. People of Westeros would be far better off if he just stayed dead and let the real men play the game. Because everything he touches - he f****** it up. The great wight chase just proves this point.

[The Red Sultan]

Jon is a LOSER.

He even lost against Karl in Craster's Keep and was saved by one of Craster's girls.

 

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I really want to like Jon as a character. I really want. But it seems to me that everything that happens to him happens because he is the central character, not because of his actions and decisions.

It seems to me that Jon has a huge credit of a doubt and other characters just give him more responsibilities just because he is supposed to lead. Because he's a main character. Or because all others have zero personality whatever.

Jon is definitely a skilled warrior and a decent guy, raised in high moral standards, but it isn't enough to be in a senior position. No matter how I dislike Dany in the show, he raise to power at least in the early seasons seems more plausible.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

5 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Same my friend, same.

First, let me tell you that rant of mine wasn't directed at you but other two before you. You posted just between me typing it.

Anyways, onto the point - name some - good battle related decisions. Note I'm not saying he's a bad guy, quite the contrary but this "must have drama at all costs" thing is what killed his character. People of Westeros would be far better off if he just stayed dead and let the real men play the game. Because everything he touches - he f****** it up. The great wight chase just proves this point.

I wasn't really referring to battle decisions although he did want to freeze the passage under Castle Black and that really should have been done.  That would have been a great decision.  Also trying to double envelop Ramsay's army would was a good decision but his emotion made him make a terrible one instead.  The raid on Kraster's, that went pretty well.  Also decisions as a leader, allowing the Wildlings to come south and uniting them with Northern houses, going to Dragonstone, sending Sam to the Citadel, all good decisions although they really aren't battle decisions.

 

[El Guapo]

7 hours ago, darmody said:

You didn't mention Hardhome, but it's just as well because he lost there, too. 

I'd say the Battle of the Wall was his high point. He rallied the Night's Watch to defend Castle Black against great odds for at least one night. 

Beyond the Wall wasn't rmuch of a battle, but he deserves all the discredit in the world for going at all and for choosing to wait on a rock--in subzero temperatures with no shelter--he didn't know was there ahead of time for dragons to arrive from thousands of miles away. 

Ramsey proved himself a better commander, but that's not saying much. I know better than to charge an entire army by myself, which means I'm a better commander than Jon. But for the record Ramsey commanded idiotically, too. 

I seem to recall Ser Alliser Thorne rallying the Nights Watch to fight.