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Widowmaker 811

Ellaria, Yara, and Tyene

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37 minutes ago, Zzzzzzz said:


There are only 6 episodes next season, they're not revisiting Dorne (the place or the storyline).  They'll probably pare the cast down to the minimum necessary.

This...I doubt we see any of Ellaria or Dorne ever again.  The show listened to fan backlash on this one and just decided to scrape the whole Dorne story.  

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11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

This...I doubt we see any of Ellaria or Dorne ever again.  The show listened to fan backlash on this one and just decided to scrape the whole Dorne story.  

lol to be fair they listened to fan backlash on how poorly they had written it and then wrote the plot off without any clarification on if/how Dorne and their army (after it has already been mentioned) will be used in the war to come.

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5 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

lol to be fair they listened to fan backlash on how poorly they had written it and then wrote the plot off without any clarification on if/how Dorne and their army (after it has already been mentioned) will be used in the war to come.

They made it pretty clear that Dorne and their army will not be used at all in the war to come. Tyrion took the Dornish piece off the board, and Cersei said something about how Dorne is no longer a problem.

Sure, they didn't give us the details to understand how this is true, but there's lots of perfectly reasonable possibilities, so that's no reason to reject what we saw.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

They made it pretty clear that Dorne and their army will not be used at all in the war to come. Tyrion took the Dornish piece off the board, and Cersei said something about how Dorne is no longer a problem.

Sure, they didn't give us the details to understand how this is true, but there's lots of perfectly reasonable possibilities, so that's no reason to reject what we saw.

No I agree. Your second paragraph hits on what I was saying. They left a bunch of hypotheticals on why they aren't involved anymore but we have to make up those hypotheticals. I mean just a quick statement that basically states something like "after the deaths of their entire royal family the dorne are fine staying in their area." My main problem is the main dorne players are eliminated and then the show doesn't deal with the after affect. 

I mean at least with the storm lands and the reach and the river lands we can simply assume after all the main players are dead that there simply isn't a large enough force in those areas to create a problem (is stannis died with his army, all reach players were eliminated this season with their armies, tullys all dead and last remaining stronghold gone, and the greys were knocked out which eliminated any remaining player in that area). Just don't understand why dorne can't get the same treatment is all. 

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55 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

No I agree. Your second paragraph hits on what I was saying. They left a bunch of hypotheticals on why they aren't involved anymore but we have to make up those hypotheticals. I mean just a quick statement that basically states something like "after the deaths of their entire royal family the dorne are fine staying in their area." My main problem is the main dorne players are eliminated and then the show doesn't deal with the after affect.

But the entire royal family aren't dead. And that makes it even easier. When Tyrion knocks over the Dornish piece, just have him say "Little Sarella Sand isn't going to be raising the Dornish armies for anyone." That's all you need to understand why Dorne is out of the picture, without even making the scene any longer.

But that's also why it doesn't bother me too much. There's a few obvious possibilities for what's going on in Dorne, and they all lead to the same place in the endgame, so it's not too terrible if I don't know exactly which one happened.

55 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I mean at least with the storm lands and the reach and the river lands we can simply assume after all the main players are dead that there simply isn't a large enough force in those areas to create a problem (is stannis died with his army, all reach players were eliminated this season with their armies, tullys all dead and last remaining stronghold gone, and the greys were knocked out which eliminated any remaining player in that area). Just don't understand why dorne can't get the same treatment is all. 

But the Reach Lords and armies aren't dead. Go back and watch the battles again—Tarly didn't call up any of the other Reach Lords, and neither did Olenna. All those Lords, and their tens of thousands of men, are still alive, and presumably happily working in their fields, towns, and castles, comforted by the fact that there's nobody with enough power to call them up to fight again.

And it's the exact same as with Dorne—we don't know why nobody could call them up again, but most likely either Randyll's widow or his daughter is now Lady Paramount as long as she doesn't try to throw her weight around, and that's why all those men are staying home.

The Stormlands and the Riverlands actually bother me more. Sure, we know the fighting men are largely spent, so it doesn't really matter for the endgame—but the best guess about who's in charge there is nobody at all. And that's been a few years for the Stormlands. Are people starving to death or being slaughtered by bandits except where they're under the thumb of local strongman warlords, or have they created an anarchist utopia without waiting for Dany to break the wheel? I know I'm just being a geek here, but I want to know.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

But the entire royal family aren't dead. And that makes it even easier. When Tyrion knocks over the Dornish piece, just have him say "Little Sarella Sand isn't going to be raising the Dornish armies for anyone." That's all you need to understand why Dorne is out of the picture, without even making the scene any longer.

But that's also why it doesn't bother me too much. There's a few obvious possibilities for what's going on in Dorne, and they all lead to the same place in the endgame, so it's not too terrible if I don't know exactly which one happened.

But the Reach Lords and armies aren't dead. Go back and watch the battles again—Tarly didn't call up any of the other Reach Lords, and neither did Olenna. All those Lords, and their tens of thousands of men, are still alive, and presumably happily working in their fields, towns, and castles, comforted by the fact that there's nobody with enough power to call them up to fight again.

And it's the exact same as with Dorne—we don't know why nobody could call them up again, but most likely either Randyll's widow or his daughter is now Lady Paramount as long as she doesn't try to throw her weight around, and that's why all those men are staying home.

The Stormlands and the Riverlands actually bother me more. Sure, we know the fighting men are largely spent, so it doesn't really matter for the endgame—but the best guess about who's in charge there is nobody at all. And that's been a few years for the Stormlands. Are people starving to death or being slaughtered by bandits except where they're under the thumb of local strongman warlords, or have they created an anarchist utopia without waiting for Dany to break the wheel? I know I'm just being a geek here, but I want to know.

Sarella Sand? Did I miss a surviving Sand snake in the show? But I agree with you, a quick statement from Tyrion or someone else to simply cut out all the hypotheticals would be nice. I understand there are possibilities of what is going on but I'd still like to know.

But are the reach Lords all alive? The Sept blew up and there was no explanation really (understandably) who the other Lords in the sept were.  Fairly safe to assume a decent amount were Lords that sided with the Queen (Margary) and House Tyrell as they would be at court with them. I'm not really going to argue the manpower issue in the reach, since the North and Lannister forces were largely decimated in the Wot5K and yet they have been able to scrounge a couple thousand when needed. So the fact that there are Reach men alive is fair.  Also, didn't a decent amount of the Reach Lords stay on with Stannis for the Blackwater or was that just all stormlands since the Tyrells defected after the Renly assassination because I don't really remember the show stating a lot about that.  

And my thoughts are the same on Stormlands, since there was no closure.  At least with the Riverlands we can assume there is some kind of power struggle going on since Frey and tulleys are gone, unless Edmure magically reappears.

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I'm guessing Ellaria and Tyene are goners. I will admit that I was a little disappointed when I realized we won't get to see Tyene's tata's again, but it's probably for the best. The Sand Snakes obviously didn't work out (though I think that's the fault of the writing and not the actresses).

Of the three, I think only Yara survives. Maybe some sort of deal is brokered to secure her freedom? Hopefully they have something good in store for her character.

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Dorne is now being ruled by Darkstar. They are living a quiet and peaceful existence as their lord and prince, Gerold, ushers in a new golden age of enlightenment and appreciation for not only the sun but of the night. 

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21 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Sarella Sand? Did I miss a surviving Sand snake in the show?

When Oberyn is first introduced, he has 8 daughters. Only 3 of them are part of Ellaria's uprising and end up dead or captured; the other 5 are still alive. If Ellaria counts as Princess of Dorne, then her eldest surviving daughter—Oberyn's fifth daughter—is heir. If not, Oberyn's eldest surviving daughter—his third—is heir.

As for the name Sarella: The DVD extras gave names for the 8 daughters, and they're the same names as Oberyn's daughters in the books, but they don't seem to be in the right order. So I just picked the one whose name matches the eldest book daughter who wasn't part of the conspiracy. Maybe it's not Sarella, but, say, Dorea. We have no way of knowing, and it makes absolutely no difference. And likewise, it makes no difference whether it's Oberyn's third or fifth daughter. So the show could just pick whichever of the names they want. And for the vast majority of the viewers, it's just some other Sand daughter. For the ones that paid a lot of attention, or do some research, it works out.

(The only problem is that Sarella is an interesting minor character in the books, and she doesn't give the right connotations of "young girl who didn't choose the spear and will be a nice, safe, non-interventionist leader that all the lords of Dorne could get behind". So maybe one of the other names would be better.)

Speaking of choosing the spear, I'm pretty sure Obara says that she's a Sand Snake because Oberyn gave her a choice in how to be raised and she chose the spear. Which would mean the surviving 5 girls who either made the other choice or were too young aren't Sand Snakes. But in the book, they definitely are all called Sand Snakes. So, better to just avoid that term to avoid confusion.

21 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

But are the reach Lords all alive? The Sept blew up and there was no explanation really (understandably) who the other Lords in the sept were. 

Yes, some of them switched from Renly to Stannis and presumably died with him (it's not clear how many, but in the books they make up a good chunk of his forces). And probably some of them were close to the Tyrells and died with them in the Sept.

But we saw Cersei summon the Reach Lords this season, after the Septsplosion, and a lot of people showed up. And they mostly looked like middle-aged ruling men types, not a bunch of old men and little girls like we see in, say, the North. So I think a good number of them are alive.

21 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

And my thoughts are the same on Stormlands, since there was no closure.  At least with the Riverlands we can assume there is some kind of power struggle going on since Frey and tulleys are gone, unless Edmure magically reappears.

Why do so many people think Edmure magically reappearing would solve anything? He's a self-confessed and attainted traitor who made his supporters swear to abjure him and pledge to the King. He's not Walder Frey's heir, and his wife is probably like 20th on the list of Frey heirs. He's not legally in line for the job for any other reason. Cersei's certainly not going to put him in charge. Dany's not likely to put anyone in charge of a region she doesn't control yet unless he can do something for her now. And nobody's going to rise up in support of him. He's irrelevant to the current power struggle.

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4 hours ago, jandslegate said:

Dorne is now being ruled by Darkstar. They are living a quiet and peaceful existence as their lord and prince, Gerold, ushers in a new golden age of enlightenment and appreciation for not only the sun but of the night. 

Darkstar has no interest in golden anything, only silver, because it goes much better with his hair like a silver glacier divided by midnight black, as you would know if you paid any attention when he talks, but nobody ever does, not that he cares. Also, gold isn't goth. And he will bring endarkenment, not enlightenment.

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8 hours ago, falcotron said:

When Oberyn is first introduced, he has 8 daughters. Only 3 of them are part of Ellaria's uprising and end up dead or captured; the other 5 are still alive. If Ellaria counts as Princess of Dorne, then her eldest surviving daughter—Oberyn's fifth daughter—is heir. If not, Oberyn's eldest surviving daughter—his third—is heir.

As for the name Sarella: The DVD extras gave names for the 8 daughters, and they're the same names as Oberyn's daughters in the books, but they don't seem to be in the right order. So I just picked the one whose name matches the eldest book daughter who wasn't part of the conspiracy. Maybe it's not Sarella, but, say, Dorea. We have no way of knowing, and it makes absolutely no difference. And likewise, it makes no difference whether it's Oberyn's third or fifth daughter. So the show could just pick whichever of the names they want. And for the vast majority of the viewers, it's just some other Sand daughter. For the ones that paid a lot of attention, or do some research, it works out.

(The only problem is that Sarella is an interesting minor character in the books, and she doesn't give the right connotations of "young girl who didn't choose the spear and will be a nice, safe, non-interventionist leader that all the lords of Dorne could get behind". So maybe one of the other names would be better.)

Speaking of choosing the spear, I'm pretty sure Obara says that she's a Sand Snake because Oberyn gave her a choice in how to be raised and she chose the spear. Which would mean the surviving 5 girls who either made the other choice or were too young aren't Sand Snakes. But in the book, they definitely are all called Sand Snakes. So, better to just avoid that term to avoid confusion.

Yes, some of them switched from Renly to Stannis and presumably died with him (it's not clear how many, but in the books they make up a good chunk of his forces). And probably some of them were close to the Tyrells and died with them in the Sept.

But we saw Cersei summon the Reach Lords this season, after the Septsplosion, and a lot of people showed up. And they mostly looked like middle-aged ruling men types, not a bunch of old men and little girls like we see in, say, the North. So I think a good number of them are alive.

Why do so many people think Edmure magically reappearing would solve anything? He's a self-confessed and attainted traitor who made his supporters swear to abjure him and pledge to the King. He's not Walder Frey's heir, and his wife is probably like 20th on the list of Frey heirs. He's not legally in line for the job for any other reason. Cersei's certainly not going to put him in charge. Dany's not likely to put anyone in charge of a region she doesn't control yet unless he can do something for her now. And nobody's going to rise up in support of him. He's irrelevant to the current power struggle.

I just assumed since the show didn't bring in the characters (outside of a mention, which I missed  thank you) that they were just nonexistent. So I guess that's some closure to dorne but still pretty weak. 

In terms of the reach, I forgot about the lords with tarly when they were summoned but that doesn't mean they're still with cersei. I mean Randyll did just get burned alive so I feel like that news has traveled. But you're still right that it shows some men are alive there. 

Also, I don't think demure reappearing would solve anything but it would give some idea of what's happening is all I'm saying. It may cause more problems than anything but at least we have a character we know and can watch to get an idea of what's going on there. 

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Realistically, if any of them survive, it should be the Dorne women. Yara is of no value to anybody now that she has no army and no fleet. She was fighting on Daenerys' side so it would make sense to execute her without delay. The Sand women are valuable hostages though to try to use them as leverage and turn Dorne to the Lannister side.

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2 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

In terms of the reach, I forgot about the lords with tarly when they were summoned but that doesn't mean they're still with cersei. I mean Randyll did just get burned alive so I feel like that news has traveled. But you're still right that it shows some men are alive there.

Oh, I doubt they're with Cersei, I think they're happily neutral, staying home with their thousands of knights and smallfolk working on food and goods for the winter rather than dead like most of the other regions.

If Randyll didn't switch sides and agree to betray Olenna at the meeting, I doubt many others did. And we didn't see any evidence that either he or Olenna called the banners before Highgarden, or between Highgarden and Dany's attack. And now, there are probably no potential leaders left strong enough to compel their oaths.

2 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Also, I don't think demure reappearing would solve anything but it would give some idea of what's happening is all I'm saying. It may cause more problems than anything but at least we have a character we know and can watch to get an idea of what's going on there. 

Yeah, I agree that it's odd they haven't bothered to tell us what happened to him. And it's even odder they haven't bothered to tell us who's in charge of the Riverlands and how things are being run since episode 1.

They introduced a bunch of new throwaway characters to give us some picture of the Riverlands, unlike every other region. I think they get that GRRM has used the central Riverlands to show the effects of the devastation of war, as well as being both a literal and symbolic crossroads for the way North, so it made sense to come back there. But at the same time, it makes the omissions more obvious.

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On 8/26/2017 at 9:50 AM, jandslegate said:

Darkstar

Surely you mean Darkstar, he who is of the Night

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On 25/08/2017 at 2:05 AM, plastic throne said:

My bet is on Theon saving her but dying in process. The way his character is going, l just don't see what else is there left for him.

I've been wondering that since Season 3 :P

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